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Freiburg - Doping Drs and clinic investigation
« on: August 20, 2012, 08:58 »


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-german-doping-investigation-of-freiburg-doctors-ends

Quote
There was still, though, a “continuing general suspicion” that the doctors supplied the doping products, and specifically provided EPO to Jan Ullrich, Steffen Wesemann, Rolf Aldag, Erik Zabel, Udo Bölts and Jens Heppner. It was also “verifiable” that Andreas Klöden, Matthias Kessler and Patrik Sinkewitz were involved in blood doping in 2006, Spiegel reports the order as saying.

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    Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: Freiburg - Doping Drs
    « Reply #1 on: August 20, 2012, 11:31 »
    i don't see how this german case closure have any impact on a  texas district judge.

    if a parallel exists, a remote one, this is more akin to jeff novitzki investigation being shelved...

    in fact, this decision  should encourage sparks NOT take over jurisdiction into his own hands.
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    Re: Freiburg - Doping Drs
    « Reply #2 on: August 20, 2012, 11:37 »
    also interesting is that there is no mention of Rogers
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    Re: Freiburg - Doping Drs
    « Reply #3 on: August 20, 2012, 11:42 »
    i don't see how this german case closure have any impact on a  texas district judge.

    if a parallel exists, a remote one, this is more akin to jeff novitzki investigation being shelved...

    in fact, this decision  should encourage sparks NOT take over jurisdiction into his own hands.

    Exactly right. The investigation could not find sufficient evidence of a specific illegal act. Between several individuals saying nothing and several others talking guardedly and in general terms years after the events in question, you have no paperwork, no needles, no audit trail, nothing but hot air.

    The difference between those Spanish, French and Italian investigations that led to convictions and those coming up empty-handed in Freiburg and to some extent with LA is the plethora of hard, contemporaneous evidence of activities in the former and the total absence thereof in the latter.

    This "hard" evidence was gathered in many cases while events were still happening, with judicially sanctioned phone-tapping and/or a haul of in situ artefacts such as drugs or equipment.

    Thus when combined all of these cases show us that "red-handed" is best: an investigation can be very successful if it is launched contemporaneously and in secrecy.
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    just some guy

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    Re: Freiburg - Doping Drs
    « Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 10:50 »


    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freiburg-doctor-pays-fine-to-settle-doping-related-charges

    Quote
    Schmid “admitted to letting pro cyclists from the former team have five packages of EPO,” his attorney, Ferdinand Gillmeister, told the dpa news agency. The names of the rider or riders involved with the EPO were not made public.

    The settlement is not an admission of guilt and Schmid will not have a criminal record.

     :fp
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  • froome19

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    Re: Freiburg - Doping Drs
    « Reply #6 on: August 29, 2012, 10:52 »
    Strange development here...

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freiburg-doctor-pays-fine-to-settle-doping-related-charges

    Quote
    Dr. Andreas Schmid has agreed to pay a fine equal to three months salary in settlement of charges that he violated prescription drug laws.  The case stems from the German investigation of the involvement of the Freiburg University Clinic in relation to doping with Team Telekom/T-Mobile.
    And also..

    Quote
    The investigations were closed due to the statute of limitations and because, according to the prosecutors, no damage was done as the riders agreed to the doping. But chief Freiburg public prosecutor Wolfgang Mier made clear, “Without question, doping took place.”
    So they had evidence of doping, but are not going to bring any charges and are going to except what is effectively a bribe? ::)

    At least they are still looking into the Kloden matter...
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    Re: Freiburg - Doping Drs
    « Reply #7 on: August 29, 2012, 15:12 »
    Strange development here...

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freiburg-doctor-pays-fine-to-settle-doping-related-charges
    And also..
    So they had evidence of doping, but are not going to bring any charges and are going to except what is effectively a bribe? ::)

    At least they are still looking into the Kloden matter...

    The German legal system (based on the Roman system) provides in certain circumstances an opportunity for the respondent to settle a case in much the same way as one might settle a civil suit between parties out of court.

    The result is that one pays an indemnity to close the case which prosecutors deem an acceptable return for the immediate conclusion of the case. It is not accurate, as far as I am aware, to call this indemnity a "fine" as per the article because that infers a notion of punishment, which is not what the indemnity represents. By contrast, one leaves the room with a clean record.

    I don't know whether or not Susan wrote the piece in CN but she would be able confirm those details.

    Anyway, this is not the first time we have seen this example of German (legal) efficiency in pro cycling. Both Ullrich and Kloeden paid similar indemnities to end proceedings against their activities at T-Mobile:

    http://www.dopeology.org/incidents/Ullrich-fraud-investigation/

    http://www.dopeology.org/incidents/Freiburg-Report-T-Mobile/
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  • search

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    Re: Freiburg - Doping Drs
    « Reply #8 on: February 08, 2013, 10:25 »
    some news form Freiburg (gt):

    Quote from: Zeit.de / 7.2.2013
    The doping Uni covered up their past doping

    In Freiburg, a commission should investigate the past doping in sports medicine. But the most important project for the German doping history seems to fail.

    Christopher Frank is an expert on the dark side of sports medicine Breisgauer. Last fall, finished the chief prosecutor for the time being the last doping procedures in Freiburg - without public trial. A year earlier Frank had been disillusioned for the record: "I experience here that the doping scene is excellently organized, it will be possible to organize the perfect silence."

    Frank studied at that time only the allegations against the doctors of the former telecom Radstalls Andreas Schmid and Lothar Heinrich. But it was this case, which already in 2007 provided hard evidence that im Breisgau, a doctoral stem worked, practiced systematic doping. Because what happened to taxpayers' money, Freiburg is considered a great West German Decal the GDR doping state plan.

    The telecom doctors were only the last in Freiburg. Physicians in a row, which is quite the "maximum performance" dedicated to the well-German Medals Before they came to the test: Herbert Reindell, in the fifties, the founder of the "Freiburg School", to the doyen of sports medicine and Armin Klümper Joseph Keul. Keul was until his death in 2000 at the Albert-Ludwigs-University of superior telecom doctors. And all three were closely linked in organized sports - as an association of physicians and coaches Olympic team. Every once were cared for by them on athletes as dopers. Really looked after the association has not princes or politicians. Individual cases, it was mostly.

    Well it certainly looks as if it will remain in this less convincing view of the Breisgau spray and injection history. Because actually entrusted with the education commission headed criminology professor Letizia Paoli from the University of Leuven (Belgium) raises serious allegations against the head of the University of Freiburg.

    "Brainwashed work order. Evaluation Commission is deceived and betrayed," said Paoli wrote about her 87-page explanation and documentation. Core: The longtime rector Wolfgang Jäger Commission refused to disclose the assignment and "concentrated inadmissible".

    Hunter stated solely the work of the first founded in 1974, "Department of Performance and Sports Medicine" is to investigate - had not determined how Rectorate, Clinic Board of Directors and the Faculty of Medicine 2007, the Freiburg sports medicine "in their overall activities during the past 50 years. " So, for example, Reindell and Klümper.

    Letizia Paoli calls this conscious "Des and misinformation" with very negative consequences for their work. Only in March 2012, they have - after painstaking research - get the board resolutions, including official work order. Whether it's "still" would be possible to meet the, the eight top-class scientists questioned.

    Worse, it can hardly come to the university. Did she enlightenment will just pretend? Old Hunter has Magnificence, as many as twelve years at the helm of the university, the "organized silence" (Attorney Frank) perfected in Breisgau yet?

    The Commission will supply plenty of evidence. With internal correspondence, letters and recorded statements from hunters, it illustrates how the narrowing of the job was like. Hunter himself did the Commission give any information, he had questions about the operations as "inquisitorial" back. Nevertheless, his comment is documented. "Absurd" is manipulating the charge that he wrote to the current President Hans-Jochen Schiewer. He did not know what documents the scouts had received. The statements attributed to him he had "no recollection". Hunter noted that he had "always hope that the renowned Freiburg sports medicine having not only shade, but also light side".

    All this seems strange. Even more so because of the Former Rector of the Commission also denied with a discussion. "Non-point", hunters summoned scarce.

    The scientists had justified her desire with the "highly political environment" in which the Freiburg sports medicine acted. With the Attorney General Frank also has experience. Back in the eighties, he determined to Armin Klümper. Although only because accounting fraud. But at the time he witnessed with "the Doc" solidarity, what was anybody in professional sports: soccer as the Hoeness brothers, Eberhard Gienger gymnastics world champion or Olympic fencing champion Anja Fichtel. Shortly after the verdict against him Klümper was courted at a reception of VIPs from the country and sports policy. This made him, Frank said, "for the first time for a particular climate awareness".

    Maybe the climate is attributable Breisgauer also the recent response to the allegations of the Paoli-Commission. "Situation clearly: No indications, manipulation 'by Former Rector of the job hunters." The university countered on Wednesday night. Ironically, is cited as evidence a letter from hunter whose alleged weight, the Commission has already been ruled out. That the university like wipes aside, the rift makes perfect.

    The current rector Schiewer way Paoli had warned in advance to inform the public in terms of work order: "Any criticism as part of the final report must be expressed." To him in the documentation, the question is addressed, why he ignores research findings for order handling for months. That might now - if it is not too late - like Theresa Bauer, the Minister of Science of Baden-Württemberg.

    Your house said Thursday succinctly wish there was a "constructive agreement". Although the Green Party politician was informed by the Commission, the national government has the bustle at the University Freiburg been watched without perceptible public interest. Probably not, because the clarification im Breisgau is so great.

    this is the 87-page documentation mentioned in there (in german, I will add a google translated version later on):

    http://de.scribd.com/doc/124142390/Pressemitteilung-pdf
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    just some guy

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    Frieberg Clinic doping investigation
    « Reply #9 on: February 25, 2015, 08:55 »
    Most well know in our section of the world for the use by Jan and the boys in the arms race 2.0. We have lots of info somewhere that I think search has posted, but it seems the news is about to hit the world on what they were up too in a grand way

    https://twitter.com/friebos/status/570505547201564673



    Report: German doping investigation of Freiburg doctors ends

    Dopeology page
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  • just some guy

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    just some guy

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    hey look merged threads , my memory still ok spelling not so much
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Quote
    On Freiburg, there have been various complaints from commission that the Uni has obstructed their investigation.

    I read this more than once, each time convinced that it said the "UCI" that obstructed the investigation.

    Wasn't until reading the headlines elsewhere that I realized my error.  :-x
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  • search

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    http://www.dw.de/doping-bei-vfb-stuttgart-und-sc-freiburg/a-18289037

    Doping in cycling was financed by the German Cycling Federation BDR in the late 1970's. The report also uncovers widespread doping with anabolic steroids in German football during the 1980's (VfB Stuttgart and SC Freiburg).
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  • DB-Coop

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    http://www.dw.de/doping-bei-vfb-stuttgart-und-sc-freiburg/a-18289037

    Doping in cycling was financed by the German Cycling Federation BDR in the late 1970's. The report also uncovers widespread doping with anabolic steroids in German football during the 1980's (VfB Stuttgart and SC Freiburg).

    Assuming West Germany for all, right?
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  • Joelsim

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    Assuming West Germany for all, right?

    It's obviously not going to be East Germany. They haven't been involved in doping since all their females started needing to shave twice a day rather than just the once.
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  • just some guy

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    Assuming West Germany for all, right?

    yep for that report and timeline
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  • search

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    yes, the BDR is the West German Cycling Federation, the one in the GDR was called DRSV
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  • search

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    there was some talk about the football topic related to this in German tv yesterday, Die Zeit has published a record of all that nonsense...

    Quote
    Klopp: "It is possible that doping in football took place at some time. But it's always [introduced] from the medical side, tryingy something new. But to assume that the players believed to be able to get a bit of help that way...that's not how it works in football. [...] If something was given to them, then they certainly did not know anything about it."

    [...]

    Dutt: [Doping in football] wouldn't be effective at all, because the influence of tactical knowledge in the game is way too high. Every player trying to optimize his performance [by doping] would be plain dumb. His performance probably would even get worse due to it."

    [...]

    Förster: "Maybe some players who had an inflammation or something like that might have said 'I'd like to play on Saturday, isn't there any kind of injection that can help me?'- but that had nothing to do with doping."

    [...]

    Scholl: "The most important part of this discussion is something that has not been talked about so far: of what use is [doping] supposed to be in football?! Football is way too complex. That means, assuming someone would take something to improve his muscle growth, that would cause his coordination and quickness would suffer from it. No, not the quickness, but the coordination. If you take something to increase your condition, you consequently lose freshness. There's no use [of doping] in football. [...] All I can say, in the period of 15 years I was a pro, there were a lot of doping controls. And all we had in out medicine cabinet, was some kind of 'medicine for kids'. [...]

    http://www.zeit.de/sport/2015-03/doping-klopp-scholl-dutt-beckmann-ard
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  • just some guy

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    :fp

    what use is doping in Football  :S
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  • L'arri

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    :fp

    what use is doping in Football  :S

    Who's this? Mehmet Scholl, is it? Medicine for kids? I'll have some of what he's been smoking...
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  • Havetts

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    Man, my parents would smack me if I were raised to be so ignorant of reality :lol
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  • search

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    Who's this? Mehmet Scholl, is it? Medicine for kids? I'll have some of what he's been smoking...

    Mehmet Scholl, yep. I think they must have had quite a good media coaching at Bayern München, they know very well how to ridicule everything that has to do with doping in football. Scholl yesterday told an anecdote about Jeremies saying to him "why do you have to go to the doping control? Your performance was that bad, millions on tv could see that you didn't dope", Beckenbauer always says something like "doping doesn't improve your corner kicks", followed by a little bit of giggling, and stuff like that...
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  • search

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    although this is more about football again, some intersting information lemonde got...

    Quote
    (gt)

    According to a source close to the case contacted by Le Monde, other clubs would be discussed. "There hazardous materials for several clubs," said the source, who also had access to the tests of the autobiography of the doctor, whose publication was blocked by his wife. In the manuscript, written in the early 2000s, Armin Klümper, who turns 80 in May, also refers to his "trust relationship" with players of Bayern Munich, Karlsruhe, Nuremberg or Hamburg. In 1987, the weekly Der Spiegel racontatit one of Bayern legends, Paul Breitner, with partners Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (who now chairs the board of the Bavarian club) and Uli Hoeness (ousted president) had launched a quest to help Armin Klümper settled a hefty bill to the German tax authorities.

    http://www.lemonde.fr/football/article/2015/03/03/dopage-le-foot-allemand-accros-aux-anabos-dans-les-annees-1980_4586341_1616938.html
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  • search

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    ...and an interesting interview with Perikles Simon, member of the commission investigating the Freiburg-case

    http://www.stuttgarter-nachrichten.de/inhalt.vfb-stuttgart-epo-spielt-im-fussball-eine-grosse-rolle.0abd2352-d599-4b9f-8793-6cd9fe956c09.html
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  • Drummer Boy

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    ...and an interesting interview with Perikles Simon, member of the commission investigating the Freiburg-case

    Obwohl ich fließend in fast jeder Sprache der Welt ist Deutsch nicht einer von ihnen.

    Ein wenig Hilfe?  :flustered
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  • LukasCPH

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    Obwohl ich fließend in fast jeder Sprache der Welt ist Deutsch nicht einer von ihnen.

    Ein wenig Hilfe?  :flustered
    But that's almost perfect - I'm sure you'll manage. :P

    I'll do a translation of the main points later. :)
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    L'arri

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    Is it me or is the silence pretty deafening on this whole story? Haven't seen it beyond Le Monde, which is a perennial anti-doping attack dog, and German press.

    Must be because it's now about football. Nothing to see there.
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  • search

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    Obwohl ich fließend in fast jeder Sprache der Welt ist Deutsch nicht einer von ihnen.

    Ein wenig Hilfe?  :flustered

    no idea if Fus is still on it, but if so, his post will be more detailed and include additional information anyway, so there should be no problem to have it twice, maybe...

    - many people advised him not to join the commission
    - anabolic steroids are still in use, but not traceable anymore after 48 hours
    - doping is a topic football needs to take very seriously - but they don't
    - doping can improve the performance of a football player significantly, especially in regards to constant freshness
    - football players who are not playing for the national team don't have to be "in fear" of doping controls, there are barely any of them
    - the controls are organized by the Bundesliga itself - that's something that necessarily needs to be changed
    - as football does not care about doping and the epo-case at Juventus Turin had no consequences at all, he has no doubts about epo still playing a major role in football
    - it will be more and more difficult for the football to get out of those accusations "cleanly", especially now, with more people being connected [over social media and so on]. It's only a matter of time until more cases are uncovered
    - the football needs to help to uncover its past, otherwise the fans might turn against it at some point
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  • LukasCPH

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    Very late to the party. What can I say, I'm a busy man. :P

    search has posted a very good summary of this interview, not much to add to that.

    Is it me or is the silence pretty deafening on this whole story?
    The story is still very much developing, give it some time. They'll try to belittle and deflect - it's football after all, everybody knows doping is of no use there. ;)

    Both German public service channels, ZDF (Sportstudio) and ARD (Sportschau) took the matter up in their main sport shows the past weekend, but I haven't watched any of that. Will try to see if it's online somewhere (probably geo-restricted).
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