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Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

Larri Nov 12, 2014

Dr. Horrible the Mad Elephant Man

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Re: Jörg Jaksche
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2012, 15:37 »
He did wrong but he has confessed and that is good. His comments are good.

However the biggest implication out of this though is that Pat McQuaid just seems to have dismissed what Jaksche said and covered it up. Almost seems that McQuaid told him he should not have been confessing. That is an absolutely disgraceful thing for a person in his position to do, McQuaid should be out of the job for this and this by itself without even considering everything else that is happening.

It is quite clear the UCI do not want a clean sport, they want an incident free sport and are prepared to do as much as they possibly can to do it by covering up everything they can.
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    just some guy

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #2 on: September 04, 2012, 15:39 »
    He did wrong but he has confessed and that is good. His comments are good.

    However the biggest implication out of this though is that Pat McQuaid just seems to have dismissed what Jaksche said and covered it up. Almost seems that McQuaid told him he should not have been confessing. That is an absolutely disgraceful thing for a person in his position to do, McQuaid should be out of the job for this and this by itself without even considering everything else that is happening.

    It is quite clear the UCI do not want a clean sport, they want an incident free sport and are prepared to do as much as they possibly can to do it by covering up everything they can.

    Correctly summed up Dr
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #3 on: September 04, 2012, 16:06 »
    It is quite clear the UCI do not want a clean sport, they want an incident free sport and are prepared to do as much as they possibly can to do it by covering up everything they can.

    You're absolutely right, Dr.

    Jaksche's quote at the end of that article is extremely insightful, I think:

    Quote
    “Everyone out there is still trying to save their own ass and keep their contracts and sponsors. That means being successful and saying you’re a clean team. People adapt to the situation but I don’t think there’s been a big change attitude wise.”

    We either need a complete amnesty, draw a line and move on, or accept that the financial fall-out from making pro-cycling clean will be huge. That's why the UCI won't act... clean-up the sport and lose power, money and connections? Not something I see ol' Pat doing, do you?!
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    benotti69

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #4 on: September 04, 2012, 16:17 »
    Jakshce talked in similar fashion a few years ago. But still good to read this in a current edition.

    An amnesty will only work if the new punishments implemented are harsh. 4 year bans then lifetime bans. Teams relegated, pro licence rebuked etc.

    I would like to see the ASO come out and offer an amnesty to all riders, DS, Soignuers, mechanics and masseuses to come forward and talk. Archive the info for WADA and whatever ADA wants access to it.

    Then anyone caught would never be eligible to compete at another ASO event, ie a lifetime ban.

    I bet that would clean up the sport pretty damn quick.
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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    just some guy

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #5 on: September 04, 2012, 16:31 »
    Jakshce talked in similar fashion a few years ago. But still good to read this in a current edition.

    An amnesty will only work if the new punishments implemented are harsh. 4 year bans then lifetime bans. Teams relegated, pro licence rebuked etc.

    I would like to see the ASO come out and offer an amnesty to all riders, DS, Soignuers, mechanics and masseuses to come forward and talk. Archive the info for WADA and whatever ADA wants access to it.

    Then anyone caught would never be eligible to compete at another ASO event, ie a lifetime ban.

    I bet that would clean up the sport pretty damn quick.

    I think 2 years for 1st offence, but with names of suppliers, people who introduced etc. keep you mouth shut and it is 4
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #6 on: September 04, 2012, 16:34 »
     ‏@Vaughters
    @nyvelocity my boss, Doug, actually pushed pretty hard for me to take Jackshe. They are friends. But it just wasn't a fit.

     
    Jonathan Vaughters
    ‏@Vaughters
    @Ezy_Ryder @nyvelocity just like any workplace, you choose people that can get along with each other and are synergistic.
     

    1h Jonathan VaughtersVerified ‏@Vaughters
    @Ezy_Ryder @nyvelocity JJ is incredibly intelligent too.

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #7 on: September 04, 2012, 16:35 »
    ‏@Vaughters
    @nyvelocity my boss, Doug, actually pushed pretty hard for me to take Jackshe. They are friends. But it just wasn't a fit.

     
    Jonathan Vaughters
    ‏@Vaughters
    @Ezy_Ryder @nyvelocity just like any workplace, you choose people that can get along with each other and are synergistic.
     

    1h Jonathan VaughtersVerified ‏@Vaughters
    @Ezy_Ryder @nyvelocity JJ is incredibly intelligent too.

    putting on my Benno hat

    read less easily manipulated in the Garmin way  :P
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #8 on: September 04, 2012, 17:02 »
    putting on my Benno hat

    read less easily manipulated in the Garmin way  :P

    Oi that's my hat!!!!!!! O0

    ah c'mon Vaughters is omerta FFS. Read that, "you choose people that can get along with each other and synergetic"..OMERTA!

    Not possible to choose a team that gets along. got to flipping kindegarten to little kids with only slightly developed personalities and they still wont all get along.

    Really Vaughters desperately trying to avoid being truthful.

    People will look back in 10 years and see Vaughters and part of the omerta. I see it now.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #9 on: September 04, 2012, 17:06 »
    Oi that's my hat!!!!!!! O0

    ah c'mon Vaughters is omerta FFS. Read that, "you choose people that can get along with each other and synergetic"..OMERTA!

    Not possible to choose a team that gets along. got to flipping kindegarten to little kids with only slightly developed personalities and they still wont all get along.

    Really Vaughters desperately trying to avoid being truthful.

    People will look back in 10 years and see Vaughters and part of the omerta. I see it now.

     ;D

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  • Dr. Horrible the Mad Elephant Man

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #10 on: September 05, 2012, 04:59 »
    The Jorg Jaksche thread in the clinic on cn is very, very interesting. Some very open comments from Vaughters about some of his riders, especially Tom Danielson.

    http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18436
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #11 on: September 05, 2012, 08:19 »
    Yesterday:

    ‏@Vaughters
    @nyvelocity my boss, Doug, actually pushed pretty hard for me to take Jackshe. They are friends. But it just wasn't a fit.

    Jonathan Vaughters
    ‏@Vaughters
    @Ezy_Ryder @nyvelocity just like any workplace, you choose people that can get along with each other and are synergistic.

    2008:

    Quote
    The 31 year-old had asked by Team Slipstream, "but unfortunately team manager Jonathan Vaughters has a full team of 25."

    Between them they couldn't even tell the truth about that. ;)
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon

    froome19

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #12 on: September 05, 2012, 08:33 »
    Taken from JV on CN forum about why he did not sign JJ:

    Quote
    I would not hire the guy!

    I had my original $10M investor telling me I should hire hire him. And? Still I said NO!

    Why?

    Because he won't fit in and he won't perform well. That's my subjective judgement. Period.

    Quote
    Not fitting in and not performing are one and the same. If your teammates don't get along with you, they won't help you much in the races. If they don't help, you don't perform.

    Jorge loved to gossip gossip gossip during his time in the peloton. he loved calling anyone and everyone else a doper. He was always intent on figuring out the new, next best method. He's a very smart guy.

    So, quite simply, I don't want that personality on my team.

    As for non-performance, Jorge didn't think of himself as a worker, he wanted to be a leader. I didn't think he had the physiological or social qualities to be a leader. Nor did I think he's accept being a worker.

    Again, I could be wrong, but those were my judgements at the time.

    Quote
    Valid question. CVV, Zabriskie, Danielson, while all clearly have a past, and from an ethical standpoint are no different from JJ, there is a very pragmatic difference. That difference is performance based. Basically, I knew from what my time at USPS, how "inside" or not those riders were. Based on this, I knew there transgressions, while ethically the same as JJ's, were much less in terms of enhancing performance. Therefore, i knew they could perform close to their enhanced level, clean. I did not feel this was the case with JJ, because he was "all in"....

    Quote
    Ask JJ about me. we don't have a personal history at all. I've spoken to him 3-4 times in my life. However, I'm a big believer in first impressions, and my first impression of JJ was that he was very intelligent, but in a sneaky way.

    He also said some interesting things about Tommy D ...

    Quote
    Here's a fun example: So, Tommy D... Here's a guy that has used o2 vector doping, and with some success. But when you test him, without o2 vector doping, you quickly see this guy has massive aerobic ability. O2 transport isn't the limiting factor with his body/mind. However, he is not a mentally strong athlete. He succumbs to nerves and pressure very easily.

    So, in looking at his physiology and psychology, the rate limiting factor is the latter, not the former. So, working on that makes huge strides. Giving him o2 vector doping is akin to putting a bigger engine in a car with a flat tire, because you want it to go faster. yes, it will make the car with the flat tire go faster, but you could just go ahead and fix the flat tire instead?

    This isn't true with with lots of guys. Imagine a psychologically strong athlete that has great tactical sense, and is muscularly very strong as del, but who doesn't have a great o2 delivery system. This athlete benefits perfectly from o2 vector doping, and it would be difficult for them to perform as well without it. So, as a manager, i need to know that going in.

    With Tommy D, I knew I could get great performances out of him, clean, but it would take some unconventional work. This is not always true.

    ...and was pretty harsh to Dekker

    Quote
    Thomas Dekker: Physiological qualities to perform clean. Remains to be seen if he can handle the role shift now that he isn't quite a s fast.

    Quote
    Dekker was also " all in" at times, and if you'll notice, he's struggling. I hope that will change, but we will see.
    Yet then..


    Quote
    Yes, Thomas is an arrogant person. Or was. hugely insecure guy. It's been a lot of work with him. A lot.

    Edit: Was a bit harsher but this forums blocker is less liberal than CN


    Now that is what is unique about JV, though I do not believe he was right in what he said; to say something like that about one of your own riders is something you would never find any of the managers doing.
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  • RIP Keith

    Dr. Horrible the Mad Elephant Man

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #13 on: September 05, 2012, 09:30 »
    JV trying to portray his riders as minor dopers, reluctant dopers while those others were doing it as much and as hard as they can. Truth or spin? I do not know.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #14 on: September 05, 2012, 11:38 »
    Jakshce talked in similar fashion a few years ago. But still good to read this in a current edition.

    An amnesty will only work if the new punishments implemented are harsh. 4 year bans then lifetime bans. Teams relegated, pro licence rebuked etc.

    I would like to see the ASO come out and offer an amnesty to all riders, DS, Soignuers, mechanics and masseuses to come forward and talk. Archive the info for WADA and whatever ADA wants access to it.

    Then anyone caught would never be eligible to compete at another ASO event, ie a lifetime ban.

    I bet that would clean up the sport pretty damn quick.

    Benno mentioned old reports

    so to the source Dopeology for the links - http://www.dopeology.org/people/J%C3%B6rg_Jaksche/
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #15 on: September 05, 2012, 16:27 »
    The ASO are dirty and self serving - which is fine really
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #16 on: September 05, 2012, 21:58 »
    Interesting threads. In between wondering why Mr Vaughters bothers with the mindless hysteria that any thread connected with him generates, it also struck me that the attributes one would associate with a keeper of omerta are those that one would want as a team member, e.g.
    • Reliability under extreme pressure
    • Taking one for the team
    • Stoicism
    • Loyalty
    • Endurance
    • Refusal to admit defeat

    Whereas the Jaschkes of this world, less so.
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  • froome19

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    benotti69

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #18 on: September 05, 2012, 22:38 »
    The ASO are dirty and self serving - which is fine really

    Yes they are and no it is not.
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #19 on: September 05, 2012, 22:41 »
    Apart from the fact that I'll lay you an odds on bet that, if you scratch the surface a little, you'll find that ASO is as guilty as anyone in this process ...

    (And of course the fact that there are a hell of a lot of other important races in the calendar that aren't Le Tour, Paris-Roubaix, LBL, etc ...)

    I don't have any specific proof of this, but my statement is based on the simple fact that they're a profit driven company, and Drugstrong + Fat Pat's corrupt little games gave them the ability to make a sh*t load more money by accessing the US market - and at a time when some of their other events were on a bit of a down slope ... I mean, if you were ASO in those circumstances, what would you do??

    ASO are dirty and dont play fair. There are countless examples of them bending their rules in the Paris Dakar fo French competitors.

    If i was ASO when the cancer jesus tested positive, i would have said, "my flipping god, this guy just got back from cancer and is doping again, Non, out of race you flipping idiot! Too much."
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Jörg Jaksche
    « Reply #20 on: September 06, 2012, 08:21 »
    Yes they are and no it is not.

    it should be up to the Police to control them

    say they did set a route for a winner from say  Iran due to new business interest with the Ayatollah - that is dirty but good business.

    The ASO are a private organisation - ofc everything they do is in their own interest, I do not have issue with that - but they should no way near any doping controls   
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  • just some guy

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    just some guy

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