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The Hitch

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Re: Operation Puerto
« Reply #210 on: March 23, 2013, 02:17 »
lol you gotta give it to fuentes. Got a lot of balls on him. Love how he did that. And hillarious Real's response that he was just a witness and can have the moeny if he faxes them the receipts.

and in english

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/mar/22/blood-doping-trial-fuentes-real-madrid?CMP=twt_gu

does he have a death wish or something?    he is playing a very hard game now

One that he cannot win.  He seems to be just thinking - flip it, lets create as much chaos as i can. Probably realizes its not a bright future for him.
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Dim

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #211 on: March 23, 2013, 02:20 »
    Hes also thinking, if i push enough people, maybe someone will sort out a reduced sentance, otherwise my memory might just return..
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #212 on: March 23, 2013, 02:28 »
    Hes also thinking, if i push enough people, maybe someone will sort out a reduced sentance, otherwise my memory might just return..



    Better to do it through private channels though no?

     And secondly, if Fuentes did actually speak against other riders, wouldnt it be just his evil doping doctor word agains their superheor inspiration to millions word? Kind of like Landis and Hamilton vs Lance.

    Or even, if I recall correctly, Victor Conte vs Marion Jones. When he first said he was doping here the media said it was just evil grumpy old doping mastermind trying to ruin and taint an innocent American heroin.
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  • Caruut

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #213 on: March 23, 2013, 04:53 »
    Dunno, Fuentes seemed pretty organised, he may well be able to point to documents and identify things that make it his word from years ago when he had no incentive to lie vs theirs now. Still, perhaps he tried to get Madrid to pull some strings for him and they told him "get lost", so he's showing them he means business.
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  • Jamsque

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #214 on: March 23, 2013, 12:17 »
    I get the impression that Fuentes just likes seeing his name in the papers. Every time the case dies down a bit or gets boring, he comes out and says something ridiculous like "I'd be willing to give up my client list" or "Real Madrid owes me money" and suddenly he is back on the front pages again. Not to say I think he's lying though.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #216 on: April 03, 2013, 08:56 »
    Don't know if this is old news, but apparently Clasicomano is Flecha. The article also mentions Clasicomano Luigi as Thomas Dekker, as earlier.

    http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2698/Sport/article/detail/3419457/2013/04/03/Juan-Antonio-Flecha-was-klant-van-dopingarts-Fuentes.dhtml

    Flecha got blood transfused at least twice, according to this article. He did just deny ever being involved in doping through the questionnaire the Dutch teams made their riders answer, so the value of that questionnaire is instantly in doubt again..

    However, I'm not exactly sure what these conclusions of the Volkskrant are based on, will have a look at the paper version later to see if there's more there.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #217 on: April 03, 2013, 09:12 »
    Don't know if this is old news, but apparently Clasicomano is Flecha. The article also mentions Clasicomano Luigi as Thomas Dekker, as earlier.

    http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2698/Sport/article/detail/3419457/2013/04/03/Juan-Antonio-Flecha-was-klant-van-dopingarts-Fuentes.dhtml

    Flecha got blood transfused at least twice, according to this article. He did just deny ever being involved in doping through the questionnaire the Dutch teams made their riders answer, so the value of that questionnaire is instantly in doubt again..

    However, I'm not exactly sure what these conclusions of the Volkskrant are based on, will have a look at the paper version later to see if there's more there.

    Please do so, Slow, and if you wouldn't mind letting us know your thoughts afterwards. The VK has made a lot of fairly circumstantial stabs in the dark lately and I've had to decide each time whether to record them, but unless we see a bit more ripening of the tomato of allegation, I can't use it.
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    AG

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #218 on: April 03, 2013, 10:00 »
    Don't know if this is old news, but apparently Clasicomano is Flecha. The article also mentions Clasicomano Luigi as Thomas Dekker, as earlier.

    http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2698/Sport/article/detail/3419457/2013/04/03/Juan-Antonio-Flecha-was-klant-van-dopingarts-Fuentes.dhtml

    Flecha got blood transfused at least twice, according to this article. He did just deny ever being involved in doping through the questionnaire the Dutch teams made their riders answer, so the value of that questionnaire is instantly in doubt again..

    However, I'm not exactly sure what these conclusions of the Volkskrant are based on, will have a look at the paper version later to see if there's more there.

    So does that mean cancellara is of the hook?
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #219 on: April 03, 2013, 10:01 »
    So 3rd Rabo who went out of house ?

     T Dekker
     D Menchov  and the Arrow - seems weird why these 3 did but other did not sort of - ie rabo control verse Fuentes ?
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #220 on: April 03, 2013, 10:02 »
    So does that mean cancellara is of the hook?

    Not yet needs to be confirmed but the connections are almost the same as for Flecha

    ie it is Fabian = it is Flecha
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #221 on: April 03, 2013, 10:04 »
    So 3rd Rabo who went out of house ?

     T Dekker
     D Menchov  and the Arrow - seems weird why these 3 did but other did not sort of - ie rabo control verse Fuentes ?

    Don't know about Menchov, but the VK article says both Dekker and Flecha had Luigi Cecchini as their trainer, and claims he is likely the one that pointed them towards Fuentes.

    The article doesn't provide any kind of source or evidence for its claims though. It just says that 'research by this paper shows that...'. So unless we get more information at some stage, this doesn't seem much like proof to me.
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  • AG

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #222 on: April 03, 2013, 10:06 »
    Nonetheless that is good enough for me to continue in my fairyworld belief that fabs is pure. :D
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  • Jamsque

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #223 on: April 03, 2013, 10:12 »
    Well this news makes me sad. I like Flecha.
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  • Arb

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #224 on: April 03, 2013, 10:21 »
    Flecha's Fuentes time was supposedly 2003, well before Rabo.

    But even then we are only sure of stage racers Rasmussen/Menchov/Dekker/Boogerd receiving transfusions. In 2006 their primitive internal system was beefed up by moving across to Vienna.

    I do not for a second believe Dekker was a Fuentes client and if Flecha was I doubt it was through a Rabo link.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #225 on: April 03, 2013, 23:07 »
    While it could be Flecha, that article is flakey to say the least.

    They seem to be basing it purely on calendars and then taking the transfusion dates and trying to make it fit a race schedule. Most of the transfusion dates have been well known for ages, and I put the bulk of them in the names thread.

    They cant honestly be making the accusation based on just those dates, they must have a source that has given them extra info they arent telling us about.
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  • DinZ

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #226 on: April 03, 2013, 23:12 »
    While it could be Flecha, that article is flakey to say the least.

    They seem to be basing it purely on calendars and then taking the transfusion dates and trying to make it fit a race schedule. Most of the transfusion dates have been well known for ages, and I put the bulk of them in the names thread.

    They cant honestly be making the accusation based on just those dates, they must have a source that has given them extra info they arent telling us about.

    interesting that Vacon say they specifically asked him the question about rider 33 so there must be more rumours out there about it being him
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  • Dim

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #227 on: April 03, 2013, 23:19 »
    There have been rumours for years, Flecha was linked years ago just because of the "classics man" and him being Spanish.

    I think the evidence they are going on is very thin. Could well be him. Could well be someone else. I posted the transfusion dates ages ago, very easy to put two and two together. frankly i havnt got a clue who classicomano is.

    Will also add, ive been of the feeling that Classicomano rode Pais Vasco and Tirreno. 2 bags prior to a stage race is more fuentes pattern. Two bags prior to a one day race makes very little sense. Just wasnt his pattern of things
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  • « Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 23:36 by Dim »

    The Hitch

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #228 on: April 03, 2013, 23:56 »
    lol, another vacan bites the dust.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #229 on: April 04, 2013, 00:22 »
    I dont have a clue who classicomano is.. could be one of about 5.. Cancellara, Flecha, but also several others.. I dont think Volksrant have a clue either, unless they have a source they arent telling us about
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #230 on: April 04, 2013, 00:46 »
    Yeah, but it seems everytime Vacan sign a leader that person ends up in darkside threads by before theyve really begun. .
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  • Dim

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #231 on: April 04, 2013, 00:55 »
    Flecha unlikely to be rider 33 - classicomano.

    Fuentes has five customers that day
    Oscar Sevilla - Withdraw 2 infused 1
    Jacksche - Withdrew 2
    101 - Withdrew 1
    Lulu Sanchez - Withdrew 1
    Classicomano - Withdrew one

    Phone records so calls from a German number where the conversation regarding the transfusion was done in English, and an italian number with conversation in Italian.

    English is likely to be Jorge.. Theres no reason for Lulu, Flecha, or Sevilla to converse in Italian. So likelehood is that either classicomano or 101 are Italian.

    Credit to @lllludo who pointed it out on twitter, i remembered the german phone but didnt put two and two together.
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  • « Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 01:19 by Dim »

    Dim

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #232 on: April 04, 2013, 01:31 »
    ok, further on this..

    Athlete 101 who is unidentified was due to have a transfusion on the 13th. Phone records show that the italian caller had his transfusion delayed till the following morning.. And hey presto, there is a bag for athlete 101 dated the 14th..

    So 101 is italian.
    The english speaking german is probably jacksche

    that leaves sevilla, lulu sanchez and classicomano..

    So classicomano could be flecha, possibly...

    But i keep coming back to two bags reinfused 3 days before flanders.. That makes no sense, thats not how fuentes did it.. one day riders had a bag, maybe half a bag with magic tablets.. not two bags.. (which also rules out cancellara).. im convinced classicomano rode pais vasco
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  • « Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 01:51 by Dim »

    Dim

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #233 on: April 04, 2013, 01:51 »
    To throw fuell on the fire. Dekker rode both Tirreno and Pais Vasco. Races that 33 had transfusions just before. Im not convinced dekker isnt plain old classicomano, rather than clasicomano luigi

    And to add to that, Classicomano Luigi reinfused just before Catalunya. Dekker didnt ride Catalunya.

    Classicomano is NOT cancellara.. Unless he had a bag withdrawn two days before winning the opening tt in catalunya, which would be arrogant even by fabians standards.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #234 on: April 04, 2013, 02:12 »
    Conclusion.

    Cancellara cannot be classicomano unless he was having blood removed before winning races
    Dekker is unlikley to be classicomano Luigi unless he was having re-infusions when he wasnt racing
    Mystery man 101 is likely to be Italian
    Classicomano Luigi could also be Italian
    flecha could be anybody
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #235 on: April 04, 2013, 02:15 »
    Classicomano is NOT cancellara.. Unless he had a bag withdrawn two days before winning the opening tt in catalunya, which would be arrogant even by fabians standards.
    Ah, but perhaps that is his strategy. Maybe Cancellara will be revealed as having had blood drawn out before all his victories, just to show what a badass he really is.  :cool:
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  • Dim

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #236 on: April 04, 2013, 02:17 »
    Ah, but perhaps that is his strategy. Maybe Cancellara will be revealed as having had blood drawn out before all his victories, just to show what a badass he really is.  :cool:

    Yes, i can see it now, Fabian admits to seeing Fuentes but says it was only to have blood withdrawn before races to level the playing field. :D
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  • mew

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #237 on: April 04, 2013, 02:21 »
     :D
    I agree with this theory.

    dim isn't your head spinning from deducing all of these scenarios  :?
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #238 on: April 04, 2013, 02:22 »
    Think about it: Have you ever seen Cancellara bleed very much after any his crashes?

    Keeping the levels low might have its advantages.
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  • AG

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    Re: Operation Puerto
    « Reply #239 on: April 04, 2013, 06:57 »
    See - SuperFabs    :woohoo
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