collapse


Flo

  • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
  • Grand Tour Winner
  • *
  • Country: nl
  • Posts: 7870
  • Liked: 3696
  • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
Of course it's ok if we disagree. It is totally inconsequential.

I'm just not entirely sure what you are disagreeing with as I've outlined in my last post.

Let me make it more clear.

I disagree, Froome should not have accused Alberto of doping.
  • ReplyReply
  • RIP Keith

    Joachim

    • National Champion
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 894
    • Liked: 290
    Oh I see.

    Thing is I don't see it as an accusation. More as a statement of fact. After all, Alberto was banned.
  • ReplyReply
  • "You can't handle the truth"

    Colonel Nathan R Jessup

    Mellow Velo

    • Road Captain
    • Country: wales
    • Posts: 1759
    • Liked: 1379
    • Awards: 2015 CQ Vuelta Game winnerVelogames Classics Champion 20142013 CQ Ranking Giro Game
    rest day press conference
    http://sport.be.msn.com/nl/wielrennen/article.html?Article_ID=650015

    http://www.standaard.be/cnt/DMF20130708_00651885

    http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/froome-set-to-be-offered-better-protection-from-sky-teammates-as-he-bids-to-win-tour-de-france-1.391079

    Froome would not be drawn on Contador's comment, other than saying: "there definitely do need to be questions asked about performances in the past."

    I read the full interview in a belgian newspaper

    Edit: I think froome comes across as a dick because of his comments on Alberto and his arrogance

     Thanks for the links. I will read what I can and dodgy google translate the rest! :embarrassed

    Edit: Is this roughly the bone of contention?
    Quote
    Oddly Froome took himself out to Alberto Contador. The Spaniard was suspended two years, but cries out that he always rode clean. "I know enough about that case, but maybe you are wondering how it is that he no longer has the same level as before."

    Also that Froome questions why Contador no longer seems able to perform at pre-ban levels?
  • ReplyReply
  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    Oh I see.

    Thing is I don't see it as an accusation. More as a statement of fact. After all, Alberto was banned.

    It isn't a statement of fact. Alberto was officially banned for the substance in his body and CAS stated in the reasoned decision that a contaminated supplement was most likely the cause. Anyone without any insider's information can't be sure he doped. As long as Alberto maintains he's innocent and the courts don't convict him for deliberate doping, any comments about Alberto's history are based on belief and opinion, not on fact. So yes, it is an accusation.
  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    Thanks for the links. I will read what I can and dodgy google translate the rest! :embarrassed

    Edit: Is this roughly the bone of contention?
    Also that Froome questions why Contador no longer seems able to perform at pre-ban levels?

    I don't know enough about the case to comment on it, but perhaps you should ask yourself why he's not at his old level anymore.
  • ReplyReply

  • Mellow Velo

    • Road Captain
    • Country: wales
    • Posts: 1759
    • Liked: 1379
    • Awards: 2015 CQ Vuelta Game winnerVelogames Classics Champion 20142013 CQ Ranking Giro Game
    Let me make it more clear.

    I disagree, Froome should not have accused Alberto of doping.

     I fully understand why you feel that Froome should not have hinted about Alberto's past indiscretions.
     There is also the hard line forum school of thought that believe that riders should be more forthcoming in their condemnation of the dark arts.
     
     For my part, I tend to lean towards your view, but obviously not for the same reasons.
     The Tour rest day is neither the time, nor the place for vague insinuations, regardless
    of how baited the question might be.

     Best said out of competition and as unambiguously as possible.
    ( and expect to be called a hypocrite, when you do!)
     
     
  • ReplyReply

  • The Hitch

    • Winner 2012 Tour de France prediction game
    • Road Captain
    • Country: pl
    • Posts: 2473
    • Liked: 841
    • Awards: 2013 Annual Prediction Game2013 CQ Ranking Vuelta Game Post of the Year 2013Race Preview of the Year 2013
    It's ok for riders to accuse dopers of doping. So long as they are consistant. Wiggins for example went after Contador (and implicated Sastre) but defended lance harder than anyone else.

    Froome has not shown that level.of inconsistency so it's ok, though his team did spend 2 years trying to copy us postal and defend them.

    His picture with vino after the Olympics last year and his "cycling is clean because I say so" approach to doping questions does suggest to me that his new found opposition to dopers maybe more Pr.

    Still like I say he hasn't shown himself to be a total hypocrite on the issue like his predecessor and he is right to call out Contador.
  • ReplyReply
  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Joachim

    • National Champion
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 894
    • Liked: 290
    It isn't a statement of fact. Alberto was officially banned for the substance in his body and CAS stated in the reasoned decision that a contaminated supplement was most likely the cause. Anyone without any insider's information can't be sure he doped. As long as Alberto maintains he's innocent and the courts don't convict him for deliberate doping, any comments about Alberto's history are based on belief and opinion, not on fact. So yes, it is an accusation.

    Do you think he doped?
  • ReplyReply

  • cj2002

    • Classics Winner
    • *
    • Country: pt
    • Posts: 2849
    • Liked: 3182
    • Honorary President
    • Awards: Best avatar 2012
    It isn't a statement of fact. Alberto was officially banned for the substance in his body and CAS stated in the reasoned decision that a contaminated supplement was most likely the cause. Anyone without any insider's information can't be sure he doped. As long as Alberto maintains he's innocent and the courts don't convict him for deliberate doping, any comments about Alberto's history are based on belief and opinion, not on fact. So yes, it is an accusation.

    This answers a question I was going to ask... when we (although I try to say uninvolved) describe "doping" what are we saying..? Performance enhancement through the use of EPO/blood transfusions etc..? Being caught with a prohibited substance taken deliberately or otherwise which doesn't have such a direct impact on performance - and if that ingestion is not deliberate, does that still make it cheating? Or what about the extreme control and supplementation of the diet which is common to all athletes and yet completely within the rules. Is it doping because it's unnatural? Is Taylor Phinney one of the only clean riders because he shuns all those caffeine/vitamin pill mixes that are common towards the conclusion of a race?

    Should I have asked all these questions in the Darkside and in a thread not about why I don't like Chris Froome (I started this thread, after all...); probably yes.

    A couple of other observations, closer to the original and intended topic.

    Flo is right - we know she is a fan of Bertie, but she is right. He was banned for having a minuscule amount of a prohibited substance in his blood... the sort of level that I as a toxicologist would be inclined to disregard 9 times out of 10. Implying or accusing anything else is just that - an implication or an accusation. And while the peloton, I agree, need to be more open about doping issues (see for example Greg Henderson's (I think) response to the di Luca positive at the Giro), they need to be extremely careful with what they say in public.

    If cycling had a reputation for mass, instutionalised doping which has led to a cynicism and suspicion of almost everybody, let's not add to that a reputation for infighting, bickering and slander.

    Leave that to...[insert name of numerous other websites here]
  • ReplyReply
  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    It's ok for riders to accuse dopers of doping. So long as they are consistant. Wiggins for example went after Contador (and implicated Sastre) but defended lance harder than anyone else.

    Froome has not shown that level.of inconsistency so it's ok, though his team did spend 2 years trying to copy us postal and defend them.

    His picture with vino after the Olympics last year and his "cycling is clean because I say so" approach to doping questions does suggest to me that his new found opposition to dopers maybe more Pr.

    Still like I say he hasn't shown himself to be a total hypocrite on the issue like his predecessor and he is right to call out Contador.

    Jesus hitch when did you stop liking Contador?
  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012

    Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    Regarding Bertie and the amount of clen he had in him, remind me if that sample went to any other lab he would still be a 7 time GT winner, right?

    Yep, level was 400x smaller than level wada labs have to be able to detect, think it was one of the two labs world wide that can detect such a low concentration.
  • ReplyReply

  • The Hitch

    • Winner 2012 Tour de France prediction game
    • Road Captain
    • Country: pl
    • Posts: 2473
    • Liked: 841
    • Awards: 2013 Annual Prediction Game2013 CQ Ranking Vuelta Game Post of the Year 2013Race Preview of the Year 2013
    Jesus hitch when did you stop liking Contador?

    Its got nothing to do with liking Contador. Did Contador dope - yes. Therefore what is wrong with people calling him out for it - nothing. They are telling the truth. In and of itself there is nothing wrong with that.
  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    Its got nothing to do with liking Contador. Did Contador dope - yes. Therefore what is wrong with people calling him out for it - nothing. They are telling the truth. In and of itself there is nothing wrong with that.

    Did Contador dope - no one except Contador and eye witnesses know for sure so it is pure speculation. I remember MC threatening to sue me for saying Froome is a doper. Alberto should sue Froome. This is slander and public humiliation. It's despicable.
  • ReplyReply

  • Joachim

    • National Champion
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 894
    • Liked: 290
    Contador-Bruyneel-Astana-Clenbutarol-Plasticisers-ban-drop in performance.

    Contador has some serious explanations to give.

    We harangue riders for not speaking out.

    Froome asked the question.

    Florry harangues him, despite thinking that Contador is/was a doper.

    This doesn't make any sense, especially when at the very same press conference Froome is asked repeatedly if he is a doper (albeit in a veiled manner)

    Presumeably you think Froome shouldn't be asked these questions, or are you just inconsistent???
  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    Contador-Bruyneel-Astana-Clenbutarol-Plasticisers-ban-drop in performance.

    Contador has some serious explanations to give.

    We harangue riders for not speaking out.

    Froome asked the question.

    Florry harangues him, despite thinking that Contador is/was a doper.

    This doesn't make any sense, especially when at the very same press conference Froome is asked repeatedly if he is a doper (albeit in a veiled manner)

    Presumeably you think Froome shouldn't be asked these questions, or are you just inconsistent???

    Froome didn't ask a question.  He didn't ask Hey berto can you explain this? No he said Alberto is a doper. Just like that. No questions asked. Just: he is a doper.
  • ReplyReply

  • Joachim

    • National Champion
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 894
    • Liked: 290
    Oh no he didn't.  :D
  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012

    Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    Its got nothing to do with liking Contador. Did Contador dope - yes. Therefore what is wrong with people calling him out for it - nothing. They are telling the truth. In and of itself there is nothing wrong with that.

    The more I think about this the wronger it sounds.

    An example:
    Hitch has been in a fight with person x for years. At some point the two of them are at the train station. Then all of a sudden a scream and person x gets crushed by a train. Witnesses only saw hitch and person x standing side by side on the edge. Hitch says he didn't push person x. I don't believe him though and call him a murderer. Because I believe he pushed person x, does that mean it is right for me to accuse him of murder? No it isn't.
  • ReplyReply

  • Mellow Velo

    • Road Captain
    • Country: wales
    • Posts: 1759
    • Liked: 1379
    • Awards: 2015 CQ Vuelta Game winnerVelogames Classics Champion 20142013 CQ Ranking Giro Game
    The more I think about this the wronger it sounds.

    An example:
    Hitch has been in a fight with person x for years. At some point the two of them are at the train station. Then all of a sudden a scream and person x gets crushed by a train. Witnesses only saw hitch and person x standing side by side on the edge. Hitch says he didn't push person x. I don't believe him though and call him a murderer. Because I believe he pushed person x, does that mean it is right for me to accuse him of murder? No it isn't.

     Imo, you were ahead, you should have quit.
     
    Isn't the above exactly what you do with Sky?

     You either think Contador doped, or you don't.
     You say you do, then talk about it all being speculation
     BYOP then brings up the Koln defence,
     so that but for bad luck he would have got away with it?
     A positive test, no matter how small, isn't speculative.

     This is exactly the point I was trying to make, yesterday.
     Hitch is being consistent, you and BYOP on the other hand........

      People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    It isn't what I do with sky, because my opinion is irrelevant in cycling. Froome's opinion isn't.

    I think Alberto doped, however that is speculation on my part. Just like it's speculation on Froome's part when he says he thinks Contador doped. He should realize his opinion can actually do damage.

    And besides I despise the fact he calls others dopers to make himself look better. It is also plain stupid. He isn't exactly making himself popular. It will eventually lead to his downfall. He'll end up like LA, sh*t upon by the entire cycling community.
  • ReplyReply

  • Zam

    • everything and nothing.
    • Classics Winner
    • Country: re
    • Posts: 2664
    • Liked: 475
    Nothing wrong in calling someone was a former doper,  esp. if he was caught doing it. But he could be out of line if he calls out Juanjo as a doper.
  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    Well I guess I am alone on something yet again. no problem, I've always been the weird one.

    Anyway for me it is a reason to hate Froome so I don't understand why you guys are arguing it?? It's my opinion.
  • ReplyReply

  • The Hitch

    • Winner 2012 Tour de France prediction game
    • Road Captain
    • Country: pl
    • Posts: 2473
    • Liked: 841
    • Awards: 2013 Annual Prediction Game2013 CQ Ranking Vuelta Game Post of the Year 2013Race Preview of the Year 2013
    The more I think about this the wronger it sounds.

    An example:
    Hitch has been in a fight with person x for years. At some point the two of them are at the train station. Then all of a sudden a scream and person x gets crushed by a train. Witnesses only saw hitch and person x standing side by side on the edge. Hitch says he didn't push person x. I don't believe him though and call him a murderer. Because I believe he pushed person x, does that mean it is right for me to accuse him of murder? No it isn't.

    No. But if my boss at work for the years 2006 through 2009 was a person who was an expert at teaching people to get away with murder,  I had been linked but not charged in the big assasins bust of 2006 and i had DNA of the victim on 1 of my hands which world famous murder science analyst Matt Ashtendon testified could only have come from a pushing  motion, maybe it would be a tad different.
  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    No. But if my boss at work for the years 2006 through 2009 was a person who was an expert at teaching people to get away with murder,  I had been linked but not charged in the big assasins bust of 2006 and i had DNA of the victim on 1 of my hands which world famous murder science analyst Matt Ashtendon testified could only have come from a pushing  motion, maybe it would be a tad different.

    Check my last post.

    PS I miss the old hitch
  • ReplyReply

  • Joachim

    • National Champion
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 894
    • Liked: 290
    Anyway for me it is a reason to hate Froome so I don't understand why you guys are arguing it?? It's my opinion.

    Err.....maybe because you posted it on an internet forum?

     :wut
  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    Err.....maybe because you posted it on an internet forum?

     :wut

    Wait cj asked for opinions. I give mine and suddenly I find myself in the middle of an argument because my opinion is not right?  Wut? I'm sorry I'm not a regular cycling fan but as I said I've always been weird. It doesn't bother me but apparently it does bother others. I'm sorry.
  • ReplyReply

  • Joachim

    • National Champion
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 894
    • Liked: 290
    I think you might be missing the point of forums.

    If you give an opinion, people might challenge it and it is up to you to justify it. Equally it is up to you to challenge opinions with which you disagree.

    As long as it remains polite, it isn't a problem.
  • ReplyReply

  • The Hitch

    • Winner 2012 Tour de France prediction game
    • Road Captain
    • Country: pl
    • Posts: 2473
    • Liked: 841
    • Awards: 2013 Annual Prediction Game2013 CQ Ranking Vuelta Game Post of the Year 2013Race Preview of the Year 2013
    Check my last post.

    PS I miss the old hitch

    You don't think i called out Contador before?

    Always.

    Anyway, you are right in one way, this all is unfair. It is unfair on Contador that he gets caught out and others do not. Other cyclists and especially the more popular members of Spain's recent sporting dominance.
    Its also unfair on his fans that many July fans get to use Contador and his fans as an eternal pinata now as an extention of their own narrowminded heroworship of their own riders.

    But thats what doping does to a sport. And to sport in general.
  • ReplyReply

  • Flo

    • #1 Alberto Contador fangirl
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 7870
    • Liked: 3696
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC award 2016Reigning Giro Prediction ChampVelorooms Trivia Monday Quiz Champion 2015/2016Dish of the Year 2015Member of the year 2015Fan of the year 20152015 Giro Quiz League - 3rd placeNational Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Fan of the year 2013Best fanboy/girl 2012
    I think you might be missing the point of forums.

    If you give an opinion, people might challenge it and it is up to you to justify it. Equally it is up to you to challenge opinions with which you disagree.

    As long as it remains polite, it isn't a problem.

    Ok so what happens now that I can't justify my opinion according to the members of this forum. Will I get forced to change my opinion and be forced to not dislike Froome anymore because he was so flipping disrespectful?

    I feel what I feel and you can challenge it but it will only end up with some people being peeed off (me) and others being smug because they won the argument. Wow that certainly makes for a friendly forum.
  • ReplyReply

  •  

    * Dark Side Chatbox

    Sorry, this shoutbox does not exist.


    Top
    Back to top