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Re: Chris Froome
« Reply #2370 on: August 15, 2016, 07:29 »
https://twitter.com/Velorooms/status/765040274460532737

now we just need to workout the amazing 2011 turn around and we have somewhere to start  ;)
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2371 on: December 11, 2017, 12:07 »
    I had a thought last night, or more accurately, in the hours before dawn, when my mind tends to drift over ideas lightly, and make connections between ideas of nominally disparate direction. What if Froome wins the Giro?

    Now that I feel like we've gotten some authentic transparency about Sky's TUE practices, if Froome wins the Giro, will I consider it a clean win?

    I have nothing real to go on, but it seems to me that once Sky gets outed for a questionable practice, they put it away, and discontinue use. Example, inhalergate. I would think if Froome had continued using inhalers, we would have heard something from the peloton. So, now Sky being outed for TUE abuse, will they reduce their reliance on this?

    We will have to see, but I fear that my Eeyore persona will rear his skeptical head come Giro-time.

    On the other hand, if Froome gets his rear cheeks handed to him, I think its a solid bet I'll be cheering. <sigh> Oh, for the days of impartiality . . .
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    Mellow Velo

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2372 on: December 12, 2017, 08:13 »
    I had a thought last night, or more accurately, in the hours before dawn, when my mind tends to drift over ideas lightly, and make connections between ideas of nominally disparate direction. What if Froome wins the Giro?

    Now that I feel like we've gotten some authentic transparency about Sky's TUE practices, if Froome wins the Giro, will I consider it a clean win?

    I have nothing real to go on, but it seems to me that once Sky gets outed for a questionable practice, they put it away, and discontinue use. Example, inhalergate. I would think if Froome had continued using inhalers, we would have heard something from the peloton. So, now Sky being outed for TUE abuse, will they reduce their reliance on this?

    We will have to see, but I fear that my Eeyore persona will rear his skeptical head come Giro-time.

    On the other hand, if Froome gets his rear cheeks handed to him, I think its a solid bet I'll be cheering. <sigh> Oh, for the days of impartiality . . .

     Part of that TUE transparency was that Froome turned down applying for a TUE during the 2015 Tour, when sick.
     Inhalers are pretty common practice in the peloton.
    You might as well have jumped to the line about not wanting Froome to win the Giro.
    You are on much more solid ground there, with a lot of folks. :D
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2373 on: December 12, 2017, 15:00 »
    Very noble of Froome to become transparent after the fact.
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2375 on: December 13, 2017, 08:02 »
    He was told on 20th Sept. 

    Before or after this picture, I wonder.
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2376 on: December 13, 2017, 08:05 »
    doesn't really sound like the UCI plans to ban him, gut given the precedents (Ulissi, Petacchi) he probably should end up with a year or so

    Froome says...

    Quote
    “It is well known that I have asthma and I know exactly what the rules are. I use an inhaler to manage my symptoms (always within the permissible limits) and I know for sure that I will be tested every day I wear the race leader’s jersey.

    My asthma got worse at the Vuelta so I followed the team doctor’s advice to increase my Salbutamol dosage. As always, I took the greatest care to ensure that I did not use more than the permissible dose."

    all this applied to Petacchi as well (not race leader though, but stage winner), and it didn't help him:

    Quote
    At the April 2 hearing, Petacchi had argued that as an asthmatic, he needed to use his inhaler more than usual on the hot and humid day during the Giro. "Unusually Mr. Petacchi had felt the need to use the inhaler after the race, only an hour before he gave his sample," the decision summarized the rider's argument. "The use after the race and shortly before he gave his sample" were allegedly the cause of the high concentration. In addition, he argued, he "may have used a sub-optimal inhalation technique" when he used the inhaler during the race and may have inadvertently swallowed some of the medication.

    The CAS panel accepted most of these arguments, but still found him guilty. Petacchi did not show that the 1352 ng/ml concentration of Salbutamol was within the legal limits. "The Panel is not satisfied, on the basis of probabilities, that result was the consequence of him inhaling Salbutamol in accordance with his ATUE."

    http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2008/petacchi_suspension_may08
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2377 on: December 13, 2017, 08:14 »
    doesn't really sound like the UCI plans to ban him, gut given the precedents (Ulissi, Petacchi) he probably should end up with a year or so

    Even with twice the legal limit?
    Hard to see how they can't, given precedent.
    More to the point, will he lose his Vuelta?
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2378 on: December 13, 2017, 08:21 »
    Even with twice the legal limit?

    I don't know, to me all those statement sound like the UCI has asked for explanation, it's all fine now, and hadn't it be for the Guardian & le Monde, no one would have ever known
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2379 on: December 13, 2017, 08:39 »
    I don't know, to me all those statement sound like the UCI has asked for explanation, it's all fine now, and hadn't it be for the Guardian & le Monde, no one would have ever known


     So, more of a Christmas turkey than Christmas cracker?  :lol
     I'm not sure, but it's another error in the still expanding catalogue.
     
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  • t-72

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2380 on: December 13, 2017, 08:49 »
    OK, I call crystal ball on Hiero. :D
    Hibernation over for a lot of fans, I reckon.


    Ahem (rubs sleep out of my eyes) are there any blueberries yet? :)


    Having seen a lot of similarities between two teams in two different sports I am not that surprised by this. As many here have pointed out earlier we must expect that in competition the performance advantages are pushed to the legal limits and then some. Recent interviews with people that no longer work for Sky reveals such attitiudes and such culture exists at the highest levels in their management, and it is likely that the riders will adapt to these expectations. Marginal gains, they call it, but the thing is if you push very close to the margin you run a risk of falling over the brink sometimes, and to me that looks like what happened.

    The salbutamol doses we are talking about here are ridiculously high, as far as I can remember the discussions concerning the Diego Ulissi case and those that follows. You don't get that much into your body without using other methods than the inhalers. That's what has been happening elsewhere.

    An equally dominant athlete in his sport, Martin Johnsrud Sundby, Norwegian cross country skier, had too high concentration due to using a nebulizer set up (not inhalers). He was handed (eventually) one of those two-month off-season bans we all love so much. He also lost his world cup overall title for that year. This should have been well known at the time of Froome's vuelta participation, so the use of nebulizer at that time should not occur.

    And yes, it is the Norwegian cross-country ski team that in many ways reminds me of Team Sky, just to make that clear. Same high budgets (way above all other teams), marginal gains approach (although not really stated in case of the Norwegian XC team, it seems like that is what they do), and team Sky''s death star team bus? The Norwegians had it first.


    I am not really looking forward to seeing where this ends, it is a big tragedy for cycling and for endurance sports in general. To me the longer term more important discussion is if the rules are too relaxed on asthma medication to start with. Maybe we would be better off with not pushing the bodies so hard that this is such a common problem,  and that limit can be enforced by not allowing any asthma medication at all. This would be harsh on asthmatics, even at a lower level in sports, where we value broad participation and may prefer that some are given the opportunity to compete on medication (not just limited to asthma). This again then would lead to a two-tier system of rules where the elite should have more strict regulations than the masses.

    That could be an OK price to pay for professionalism? 
     
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  • « Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 10:59 by t-72, Reason: typo »

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2381 on: December 13, 2017, 08:55 »
    The same treatment as Ulissi got (=a backdated 9 months ban) would allow Froome to be back for the Tour de Suisse by the way

    edit: or not, Ulissi's backdated ban started over one month after the test (for whatever reason) which would rule out Froome riding the Tour
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2382 on: December 13, 2017, 09:17 »
    The same treatment as Ulissi got (=a backdated 9 months ban) would allow Froome to be back for the Tour de Suisse by the way

    edit: or not, Ulissi's backdated ban started over one month after the test (for whatever reason) which would rule out Froome riding the Tour

     It has been posted elsewhere that Froome was informed on September 20th.
    If true and things followed the Ulissi line, then the Tour would be on.
    Hope the RCS haven't forked out that 2 mill though. :D
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2383 on: December 13, 2017, 09:23 »
    where is Froome licensed though? Piepoli was cleared from any wrongdoing by the Cycling Federation of Monaco although testing  positive (with 1800 ng/ml) for the same offense twice in the 2007 Giro
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2384 on: December 13, 2017, 09:27 »
    At this point in time, I would take any ban over no ban.

    As pointed out above, we have been through the whole salbutomol arguments before, and those levels are not acheived through normal use of an inhaler.

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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2385 on: December 13, 2017, 09:52 »
    Even with twice the legal limit?
    Hard to see how they can't, given precedent.
    More to the point, will he lose his Vuelta?
    Danish ITT champion Martin Toft lost his Danish hour record after a positive test on the day even though he could prove that the substance came from contaminated supplements, complete with the manufacturer admitting to it and apologising, and being cleared of all wrongdoing.

    Toft didn't get a ban (because he evidently didn't dope) - but he was still stripped of that day's performance.
    How they can do anything less in this case, even if Froome should be cleared of all wrongdoing, I cannot see. In any logical world, Froome can no longer be considered the winner of the 2017 Vuelta even if his asthma medication intake was entirely innocent.
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2386 on: December 13, 2017, 09:59 »
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2387 on: December 13, 2017, 10:31 »
    He should get a ban as per Ulissi.

    If you're over the limit, you're over the limit no matter what the excuse is.

    Them's the rules.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2388 on: December 13, 2017, 11:06 »
    He should get a ban as per Ulissi.

    If you're over the limit, you're over the limit no matter what the excuse is.

    Them's the rules.

     Don't forget the sack, too, given Sky's policy of not employing folks who have a doping infraction..... :-x ;)

    I wonder if Mikel Landa is crying into his cornflakes, right now? :s
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2389 on: December 13, 2017, 11:29 »
    Don't forget the sack, too, given Sky's policy of not employing folks who have a doping infraction..... :-x ;)

    I wonder if Mikel Landa is crying into his cornflakes, right now? :s

    Nah. Landa's looking forward to riding for Nairo and Piti.

    With regard to the sack, Froome will ride out his contract until end of 2020 and he won't be offered a new one IMO.  :lol
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  • Not My Circus

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2390 on: December 13, 2017, 11:34 »
    My thoughts on a weird day...

    Did Team Sky's statement strike you as a little odd?  It was all written as CF's response not Team Sky responds to... Thrown under the bus?

    Quote
    My asthma got worse at the Vuelta so I followed the team doctor’s advice to increase my Salbutamol dosage. As always, I took the greatest care to ensure that I did not use more than the permissible dose."

    I was interested in the words 'team doctor's advice'in CF's statement. Fi

    I know it was a completely diff substance and circumstance for Simon Yates - the prohobited Terbutaline with the doctor forgetting to apply for the required TUE. But even so, he was handed a ban for non intentional use. But as in the Martin Toft case you cited Lukas  it's always the rider's responsibility for what goes into his body.

    Precedents
    https://twitter.com/friebos/status/940843632541696000

    This excellent thread by Jeroen
    https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/940866373584027653

    Quote
    The performance enhancing effects of beta agonists is not at all convincing and balance of literature shows no effect. The likely benefit relates to their anabolic effects at high doses (mostly clenbuterol) & would be OOC abuse. All urine samples are tested for B agonists. So taking it in competition for performance enhancement would virtually guarantee being caught. And if you know you're going to be tested (as Froome would) then you would basically knowingly commit career suicide. That said, the WADA threshold of 1000ng/ml was set so that therapeutic doses would not exceed that limit. Based on the pharmacokinetic studies the limit is set very high.

    So based on the above I can't understand how a 4 time TDF winner would take a substance with questionable performance benefit when knowing he would get bust for sure. Yet at the same time the therapeutic use doesn't make sense. Leaves many questions. Let's see how this unfolds.


    I don't see how this can end in anything other than a ban, though  it'll take an absolute age by the time it goes through every court conceivable to get it in place..

    Full disclosure. I can't pretend I didn't smile to see the the tweets this morning and the fix Sky find themselves in again. But that aside, most of all, it's this from our own mystic T-72 that holds true.

    Quote
    I am not really looking forward to seeing where this ends, it is a big tragedy for cycling and for endurance sports in general







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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2391 on: December 13, 2017, 12:18 »
    I reckon they'll try to drag it out until after the Tour, then take a 9 month ban.
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2392 on: December 13, 2017, 12:48 »
    The precedent. So, the UCI should stop Froome from racing.

    http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/diego-ulissi-prevented-racing-salbutamol-positive-fallout-continues-136700

    EDIT: I gather the WADA code has been changed since then.
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2393 on: December 13, 2017, 13:20 »
    Nah. Landa's looking forward to riding for Nairo and Piti.
     . . .

     :lol Oy, ya. That's a good one.

    Part of that TUE transparency was that Froome turned down applying for a TUE during the 2015 Tour, when sick.
     Inhalers are pretty common practice in the peloton.
    You might as well have jumped to the line about not wanting Froome to win the Giro.
    You are on much more solid ground there, with a lot of folks. :D

    OK, I call crystal ball on Hiero. :D
    Hibernation over for a lot of fans, I reckon.
     . . .

    Ha. Woke up this morning to the Guardian's headline in my news feed. Popped in to my desk first thing only to find I was slow to the line! But geez, now I can go all Buddhist and get my best Zen voice out!  I can just hear the grasshopper's teacher: "Find the quiet, grasshopper. With patience all things will come to you."

    So it turns out inhalergate didn't go away, it was just that the news I typically see haven't touched the topic since then. That pretty much clinches it for me - Froome is off the list of greats, and certainly on the shortlist of legends - right behind Lance. So EPO is too risky? May the man with the best TUE writers win.

    I am very glad that not everybody is sticking their head in the sand. It means I don't have to work at combing through the sand myself, as we had to do with Lance.

    Ahem (rubs sleep out of my eyes) are there any blueberries yet? :)


    Having seen a lot of similarities between two teams in two different sports I am not that surprised by this. As many here have pointed out earlier we must expect that in competition the performance advantages are pushed to the legal limits and then some. Recent interviews with people that no longer work for Sky reveals such attitiudes and such culture exists at the highest levels in their management, and it is likely that the riders will adapt to these expectations. Marginal gains, they call it, but the thing is if you push very close to the margin you run a risk of falling over the brink sometimes, and to me that looks like what happened.
     . . .  lead to a two-tier system of rules where the elite should have more strict regulations than the masses.

    That could be an OK price to pay for professionalism? 
     


    Love that line about the blueberries!   :lol

    That problem: of the pros not being allowed drugs any normal, everyday person would not think twice about? We've had that for a long time now.  Sometimes it seems we go to stupid lengths to try and make sure our sportspeople are on the up-and-up. Until I see something like this, where some joker is trying to game the system once again.

    You know, I was actually beginning to respect Froome. I suppose we all know where he can look for that respect now, eh? Someplace dark.

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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2394 on: December 13, 2017, 13:29 »
    I reckon they'll try to drag it out until after the Tour, then take a 9 month ban.
    Yes, I think they're exactly that stupid. :-x


    In other news, Feltet.dk published this letter to the editor, written by a certain Jimmi Elers, an MD who wrote his PhD on the use of salbutamol as a doping substance. The headline is pretty damning:
    No doubt that Froome is cheating
    I haven't read the piece yet myself - may Google Translate be your friend if for some weird reason you haven't yet mastered the Danish language.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2395 on: December 13, 2017, 13:38 »
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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2396 on: December 13, 2017, 13:39 »
    You do realise the main problem this will cause the teams?

    None of them will know which GTs Froome is riding any more so the other GC contenders will just have to pin a tail on a donkey and hope.

     :lol
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2397 on: December 13, 2017, 14:18 »
    It would seem that Twitter expanded their character limit and added the new "thread" feature just in time.
     ;)
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  • Ram

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2398 on: December 13, 2017, 14:19 »
    Nice. Strip his title and ban him. A year, hopefully 2. And I'm guessing sky will be gone before long
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  • Not My Circus

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2399 on: December 13, 2017, 14:22 »
    Yes, I think they're exactly that stupid. :-x
    I haven't read the piece yet myself - may Google Translate be your friend if for some weird reason you haven't yet mastered the Danish language.

    Last time I put a Feltet article through Google Translate...it told me PNDR stages started in Sweden ... it'as gone mad I tell you!
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