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LukasCPH

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Re: Chris Froome
« Reply #2730 on: June 07, 2018, 07:38 »
Are we really going to leave all the fun of this most recent BBC article to Twitter?

How Chris Froome won Giro d'Italia thanks to 'spectacular' stage 19 victory

Link to 53 minute audio interview
(Available for 29 more days.)

I'll be along shortly with my own take.  ;)
Oh the humanity.
:fp :S :fp
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    M Gee

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2731 on: June 08, 2018, 01:31 »
    Quote
    It was one of the most dramatic days of sport in recent memory: Chris Froome, after three weeks of injury, uncertain form and struggle, staged a spectacular 80km solo break on stage 19 of the Giro d'Italia to overturn a three-minute deficit and snatch an overall lead that he would never relinquish.

    Except Froome didn't stage it, SKY did, eh? Froome just finished it. Meh.

    Who's doing the Velorooms twitter? L'arri? Ya got a good one here: https://twitter.com/Velorooms/status/1004629199913660422

    Follow that one through a bit. Looks like Hoggie believes Froome is on some golden water and bread.

    But following thru that, I also got to here https://cyclingtips.com/2018/06/inscyd-view-a-scientific-analysis-of-chris-froomes-giro-ditalia-performance/. Which tells us Froome's performance is in the believable range, but also, that Froome really isn't any better than the other top 5 GC guys, or maybe only very slightly. Which reinforces what I said earlier - what we were talking about earlier - Froome won't leave Sky, because without the massive team Sky brings, Froome is no better than the other guys. It's the Steinbrenner approach, applied to cycling. Buy the best.

    But all this info also tells me that those who were talking up "The Big Plan" to attack on stage 19 may have been more right than I was thinking.

    :fp
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  • . . .He had the bit between his teeth, and he loiked the taste, mate . . .

    L'arri

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2732 on: June 08, 2018, 08:26 »
    Who's doing the Velorooms twitter? L'arri?

    Nope. No idea. Wondered myself, actually. JSG used to do it but he is undercover these days. :P
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    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2733 on: June 12, 2018, 11:12 »
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44446354

    I see Lizzie Deignan has leapt to Froome's defence and advanced her own agenda at the same time. Bet Froome's delighted with her intervention  :lol.

    With friends like these...
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2734 on: June 12, 2018, 12:04 »
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44446354

    I see Lizzie Deignan has leapt to Froome's defence and advanced her own agenda at the same time. Bet Froome's delighted with her intervention  :lol.

    With friends like these...

    This article does a disservice to the public since the comments of an individual are reproduced uncritically:

    Quote
    "People have made up their minds not based on the full story"

    ... says Deignan, an individual who, I should add, refused to offer her own full story and that was why people made up their own minds in her case. Now you can argue that it shouldn't have been leaked but it was. You can also argue that a sample containing double the allowed limit with no truly convincing scientific evidence in the public domain today to explain it constitutes a pretty full story, but there is another quote that bugs me:

    Quote
    "I felt really let down by UK Anti-Doping at the time - that they didn't publicly defend the fact I was tested within a day of both missed tests and obviously all my samples have proved negative"

    UKAD is not there to publicly defend an individual. It is there to conduct anti-doping procedures and provide the necessary materials to initiate or rule out disciplinary proceedings, in the interests of protecting the integrity of sports. It would be totally inappropriate for an independent body to come out in defence of an athlete, especially by referring to other test results that have nothing to do with whereabouts incidents.

    Anti-doping is a very complex domain. It is a difficult and unrewarding topic that brings together in a novel and excruciating way the anal retentiveness of scientific analysis and the dusty tedium of codified law. Presenting such issues to a public more interested in consuming sports than criticising them is a problem. However, the solution is surely not to publish news articles that consist only of opinion and emotion.
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  • « Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 12:49 by L'arri »

    Caruut

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2735 on: June 12, 2018, 14:12 »
    I saw the same article in the Guardian and thought much the same. Uncritically repeating a press release. There are good reasons why being tested a day after missing an unannounced test is not a substitute for an unannounced test.

    Namely, there are plenty of substances which the body can clear out in that time. From memory, Bernard Kohl said HGH was one. It's disappointing that neither news organisation pointed out why UKADA cannot and should not do this.

    Quote from: Deignan
    They haven't taken ownership or apologised or anything. You're still working with a system that is not even good. I think there's still a long way to go for them to be transparent themselves.

    What is it that they have to apologise for, exactly? Having the temerity to apply the rules to Deignan?

    What kind of transparency would she like to see? So far as I can tell, she's asking for less transparency in her and Froome's cases.

    This comes off as pure self-interested muck-flinging to me.
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  • M Gee

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2736 on: June 17, 2018, 01:30 »
    Oh, lordy, more grist.
    https://twitter.com/friebos/status/1007618956960653312

    Notice that Vayer steps in with a response tweet which seems to be completely supportive of Froome, but could also be absolute snark. I can not tell which. Anybody else got a clue?
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2737 on: June 17, 2018, 06:08 »
    Notice that Vayer steps in with a response tweet which seems to be completely supportive of Froome, but could also be absolute snark. I can not tell which. Anybody else got a clue?

    100% Snark. Count on it. Although the problem I always have with Vayer, and I've stated it previously, is that his grasp of proper English is quite weak, so he never comes across in print nearly as clever as I suppose he thinks he is. He should simply hire a qualified translator. Without one, he often looks foolish IMHO.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2738 on: June 17, 2018, 10:31 »
    100% Snark. Count on it. Although the problem I always have with Vayer, and I've stated it previously, is that his grasp of proper English is quite weak, so he never comes across in print nearly as clever as I suppose he thinks he is. He should simply hire a qualified translator. Without one, he often looks foolish IMHO.


    Yeah and on Twitter too. It's actually a very difficult medium to work if you want to be taken seriously as an expert, even in your own language. It's better used to point to content elsewhere as getting down a balanced,  nuanced piece of analysis in just 140 characters is pretty futile.
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2739 on: June 17, 2018, 14:11 »
    Vayer is a bit of a nutter, his French Anglais is so bad much of what he says is lost in translation. When he writes in French it sometimes makes sense...
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2740 on: June 20, 2018, 12:57 »
    I've had online conversations with him in French and he doesn't always make a lot of sense in that either. :P Most of it is poor quality writing skills (he is in fact very articulate in person) and the rest is because he has this deliberate pretence of dumbness, which is quite common among French folks (in my experience) and (for me) harder to accept.

    Vayer knows the score but he likes to chatter and enjoys the attention. He's also still closely connected to the game: if he was unambivalent, serious and properly targeted in his criticisms he would lose those connections pretty fast. Think of it as omertà-lite.
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2741 on: June 20, 2018, 18:29 »
    Yes he is a nutter.
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  • AG

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    Flo

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2743 on: July 02, 2018, 10:31 »
    Bloody hell

    Money and power

    They'll forever get away with it now

    Froome for the GT triple this year
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    Mellow Velo

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2744 on: July 02, 2018, 10:46 »
    Well, there you go.
    Of course the decision will change very little for very many.

    I can't wait for some actual racing to start, along with Avondetappe and Vive le Velo.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    blutto

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2745 on: July 02, 2018, 11:19 »
    ....."wonderful" news, my July schedule has just opened up....

    ......wondering if Petacchi is going to sue.....frankly he should, as should Ulissi.....

    ....and to add insult to injury....

    "The UCI hopes that the cycling world can now turn its focus to, and enjoy, the upcoming races on the cycling calendar."

    Cheers
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  • blutto

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2746 on: July 02, 2018, 12:03 »
    ....so hard to believe that an organization founded by Dick Pound would backstop such a decision....yup yup real hard to believe....

    Cheers
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2747 on: July 02, 2018, 12:24 »
    Quote
    “Chris’s elevated Salbutamol urine reading from Stage 18 of the Vuelta was treated as a ‘presumed’ Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF) by the UCI and WADA, which triggered a requirement for us to provide further information. After a comprehensive review of that information, relevant data and scientific research, the UCI and WADA have concluded that there was, in fact, no AAF and that no rule has been broken.

    “We said at the outset that there are complex medical and physiological issues which affect the metabolism and excretion of Salbutamol. The same individual can exhibit significant variations in test results taken over multiple days while using exactly the same amount of Salbutamol. This means that the level of Salbutamol in a single urine sample, alone, is not a reliable indicator of the amount inhaled. A review of all Chris’s 21 test results from the Vuelta revealed that the Stage 18 result was within his expected range of variation and therefore consistent with him having taken a permitted dose of Salbutamol."

    Dave Brailsford in road.cc
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  • blutto

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2748 on: July 02, 2018, 12:39 »
    ....yeah, WADA essentially confirmed their test for Salbutamol is meaningless.....and in so doing also confirmed, more or less, that  WADA is meaningless ( and in a kinda ironic twist the site spell-check flags the term WADA as meaningless ...).....

    ...maybe they could change the name to something more appropriate like WADEVER....as in WADEVER it takes to keep the money pouring in and the resident bureaucracy well fed, because frankly, I think that is all that really matters....

    Cheers 
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  • « Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 12:56 by blutto »

    Flo

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2749 on: July 02, 2018, 12:49 »
    I wonder if it was the dodgy kidney or the asthmatic dogs article that swayed WADA

    Dangerous precedent - any positive can now be explained away by saying the rules and/or testing is faulty - at least if you're a big name with a lot of money
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  • Flo

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2751 on: July 02, 2018, 15:23 »
    Reading WADA statement. Sounds like they acknowledge that sometimes the limit is exceeded without exceeding the max dose. But a controlled pharmacokinetic study would have to show that the rider's physiology would make this possible. Yet they then disregard this rule because it wouldn't be possible to completely copy the circumstances around the test?
    This would make sense if this was a regular occurrence, but it doesn't sound that way. So looks like they didn't want to punish him in the slight chance he was innocent so let him off.
    Back to the controlled pharmacokinetic study: what was all the riding in SA this off season for?
    And regarding the rules: they basically clear Froome on the basis that sometimes, a false positive occurs. Isn't this the case for any test? Froome hasn't done anything to show his physiology would cause such a high concentration of salbutamol in his urine, dodgy kidney or not. In fact, the fact that this apparently hasn't happened before to him and his claims that, first, he took more salbutamol because of an asthma attack, and later, that he took three puffs in quick succession before the interview, point in a different direction.
    Seems like his lawyers found a loophole and WADA was more than happy to help them get through it
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  • riding too slowly

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2752 on: July 02, 2018, 17:17 »
    .............................
    Seems like his lawyers found a     ***** ** ******* *******....    (did you guys ever work out who it was that leaked Lizzies silent ban ?)          and when this was put to the lawyers representing the UCI, they made it clear to Lapartient that he had either to accept or resign from office ........... ................................. and WADA was more than happy to help them get through it

    There - fixed that for you.

    So I make that a win for Sir DB and Sky. 
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  • blutto

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2753 on: July 02, 2018, 17:38 »
    ....a post from another site that paints a nice neat picture of the bureaucratic maneuvering that produced the Froome decision.....

    Appears ASO forced that situation with their announcement on Sunday. WADA acted fast and the UCI had no choice but to follow. Then WADA pretended it was the UCIs decision.

    ....odd but the spell check flags Froome, WADA, ASO, and UCI as not corresponding to anything commonly understood as, uhhhh, acceptable....

    Cheers
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  • M Gee

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2754 on: July 02, 2018, 21:33 »
    I LOVE Ross Tucker's quote (with VN)
    Quote
    And as for the final line in the UCI statement? Asking us to trust the process because it involved experts and then saying we should enjoy the racing?… as if that is going to happen?! Can they be that tone deaf and out of touch?
    from VeloNews
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  • pastronef

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    Drummer Boy

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2756 on: July 03, 2018, 13:35 »
    Benson quoting from Landis and Horner. I truly thought this was parody when I first came across it.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/landis-and-horner-wed-let-froome-ride-the-tour-de-france/#disqus_thread

    Chris Horner weighing in on Froome's Vuelta victory.
    Horner...on the Vuelta:D
    Quote
    "I see it pretty simply," 2013 Vuelta winner Horner said. "I don't think he won the Vuelta because he was out of the limits, for whatever reason, but the rules are the rules, and they've got those rules in place. I don't see him as a Vuelta winner, but I do see him as a Giro winner and the rules state that he can start the Tour de France and other races until this who fiasco is sorted out.



    Who needs parody twitter accounts when the likes of CN are giving this to us for free?
    Quote
    "I would take it step further," Landis interjected, "because athletes are held to a strict standard and because there's no flexibility at all. Therefore the race organisers and the authorities have to follow the same standard. The athletes don't get any leeway. So neither should the Tour de France or the UCI. Otherwise what's the incentive for the riders to follow the rules? So let him race. It would be boring without him. He could win five… Let him do it," Landis said, before both he and Horner broke out in uncontrollable laughter.

    This is what we've come to.

     :D :lol :D :lol
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2758 on: July 03, 2018, 15:26 »
    https://twitter.com/mjshrimper/status/1014039257042882560


    https://www.facebook.com/1481917892086163/posts/2094926427451970/


    Quote
    Asked what impact he thought the case would have, Dr Rabin said: “I may be about to disappoint you, but I do not believe it will have much at all.”

    The problem for WADA, Dr Rabin explained, is that even when you inhale salbutamol 60-70 per cent of it goes into the gastrointestinal tract, as it would if you took it as a pill. This is why WADA’s advice is not to get too close to the dosage limit as doing so would suggest your asthma is out of control and you run the risk of an adverse finding.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Chris Froome
    « Reply #2759 on: July 03, 2018, 16:41 »
    https://twitter.com/mjshrimper/status/1014039257042882560

    https://www.facebook.com/1481917892086163/posts/2094926427451970/


    Quote
    Asked what impact he thought the case would have, Dr Rabin said: “I may be about to disappoint you, but I do not believe it will have much at all.”

    The problem for WADA, Dr Rabin explained, is that even when you inhale salbutamol 60-70 per cent of it goes into the gastrointestinal tract, as it would if you took it as a pill. This is why WADA’s advice is not to get too close to the dosage limit as doing so would suggest your asthma is out of control and you run the risk of an adverse finding.



     Have to say that's a pretty selective bit of cut and pasting, which neatly avoids the key conclusions, as laid out by Dr Rabin.

    Quote
    “In this case, we had several specific elements,” said Dr Rabin.
    “First, there was a very significant increase in dosage in the preceding days (Froome increased his normal low dosage to a higher but still legal number of puffs to combat worsening symptoms). Second, he was being treated for an infection.
    “And then there was the physiological impact of the event and other factors, such as dietary supplements and so on.
    “Given all of this, we decided an excretion study was impossible and the finding was not inconsistent with therapeutic dosages.”
    Asked why anyone else in Froome’s position will not use the same arguments, Dr Rabin said people were underestimating how many of these cases occur every year without anyone knowing about them, as was meant to happen in this case, too.
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