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ram

Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2012, 13:25 »
Sorry was not clear, I think Vino goes down for money issues brought up in the itialian investigation, therefore dirty, then the uci kick him while he is down.

Our Russian friend collateral damage
How though? Making a payment isn't illegal. Personally, I don't think there's enough to prove anything.

 If Kolobnev goes down, then flip him he deserves to just as much as anyone.
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #61 on: November 16, 2012, 13:35 »
    How though? Making a payment isn't illegal. Personally, I don't think there's enough to prove anything.

     If Kolobnev goes down, then flip him he deserves to just as much as anyone.

    The case in italy and switerland is about 3rd party payments, money or doping, tax etc

    Thats what I mean if he goes down for that the UCI will come down hard on him for the LBL issue

    Ie he is busted for a seperate issue the UCI also bust him
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    ram

    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #62 on: November 16, 2012, 13:57 »
    Right, so you're saying his Ferrari payments will get him caught out, if I'm reading correctly.
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #63 on: November 16, 2012, 14:35 »
    Right

    And then when guilty the UCI can be seen to be doing something
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  • ram

    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #64 on: November 16, 2012, 15:07 »
    Well, in that case and if there's nothing new in this case (which as you know I don't believe they'll find), what I'd guess is the ban for Ferrari but a statement saying fixing was likely but left unproven. Currently, what we know is surely untenable, but maybe UCI has received more.

    Then again, that would require enough evidence in the Ferrari case. Whether that's present is another case altogether.

    Anyway, just rabid speculation.
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #65 on: November 16, 2012, 23:52 »
    dont they have clauses about bringing the sport into disrepute?  or fair competition etc?

    While I dont have any faith in the UCI to actually do the right thing for the right reasons ... I do kinda agree with JSG that he is an easy target - unpopular with the public/media, proven doper etc - and Kolobnev just got off on a charge last year ...

    So there is a chance they will do a 'witch hunt' and actually DO something here.

    Their choices seem to be
    - DQ in the race
    - suspend the rider
    - monetary fine

    In addition, LBL is run by ASO who no doubt are pretty unhappy with both riders and teams.  If the UCI do nothing, ASO might ark up and actually un-invite them to some important races.  They did that with Astana in the past ... though that was before the WT thing where they are now required to invite WT teams.
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  • ram

    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #66 on: November 17, 2012, 03:07 »
    Don’t they have clauses about bringing the sport into disrepute?  Or fair competition etc?
    They'll need to prove it. This is an accusation, an obvious one, but one that as it stands isn't going to be proven. I say this believing well that he bought the win. Now I can accuse someone of fixing, but without showing the matter and intent to it, how does it go forward? It's not that hard to make stories up, heck even unborn sci fi twins have been in the past.

    Quote
    While I dont have any faith in the UCI to actually do the right thing for the right reasons ... I do kinda agree with JSG that he is an easy target - unpopular with the public/media, proven doper etc - and Kolobnev just got off on a charge last year ...

    So there is a chance they will do a 'witch hunt' and actually DO something here.
    If he's an easy target, he's made himself that by lying at every step and now stooping to this. If he had better intelligence, there'd be two Armstrongs, except I don't think Armstrong bought his wins. And no witch hunt; he'd deserve it if the sh*t is flung on him.

    But an organisation cannot label accusations as fact. They can't go on untenable evidence and say that the accused is guilty. Even the so called easy targets get caught because there's evidence of cheating. They’re not wronged; they’re just not the insulated big names.

    Quote
    Their choices seem to be
    - DQ in the race
    - suspend the rider
    - Monetary fine

    In addition, LBL is run by ASO who no doubt are pretty unhappy with both riders and teams.  If the UCI do nothing, ASO might ark up and actually un-invite them to some important races.  They did that with Astana in the past ... though that was before the WT thing where they are now required to invite WT teams.
    The licence of rider and team can be suspended if the accusations prove true.

    Unlike 2007/08, where there were a shed load of positives and suspensions from Astana (Mazzoleni, Vinokourov himself, Kessler and Kashechkin of those that I can remember), there isn't anything tenable yet. Sure Puerto/Fuentes also played its part in the non invite, but without 2007, Astana would've just been every other team.

    This will have to be proven to keep them out of the race on said terms (may have been different for non WT teams). It can't be with two transactions and two emails. It could be enough for casuals, but would fall far short of the requisite in courts to prove anything.
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  • AG

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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #67 on: November 17, 2012, 04:58 »
    you have to remember though, that the UCI isnt a court of law.  They are not finding these guys guilty of a crime ... just discussing whether or not their team is invited to a race or given a license.

    Their burden of proof is substantially less than "beyond reasonable doubt".  It is in fact a little less than the civil standard of "on the balance of probabilities" ...

    so I do think the UCI has enough to find them guilty if it is so inclined

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  • ram

    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #68 on: November 17, 2012, 06:25 »
    We'll have to agree to disagree.

    As it stands, I don't see enough. Get the police involved, get the real authorities in, and get enough crap on both and hand an irrefutable case to the UCI, the Kazakh cycling federation and the Russian cycling federation (see what happened with Mohammad Azharuddin and his mates from the 90s). Unlike doping, where only the possession of drugs is usually criminal, this is one that can involve the police in every step.

    I'd like for both to be banned, banned for life, from all the aspects of the sport. Not optimistic though.
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #69 on: August 20, 2014, 15:33 »
    http://www.sudinfo.be/1083126/article/2014-08-20/liege-bastogne-liege-2010-le-vainqueur-vinokourov-et-son-dauphin-kolobnev-inculp

    GT

    Quote
    The record of private corruption educated at Liege prosecution and defense of Alexander Vinokourov (Astana team manager) and Alexandr Kolobnev (Katusha rider in) coming off a significant advance because the judge in charge of folder, Philippe Richard, decided in May to charge the two men for private corruption. The information had been kept secret well.

    Vinokourov is believed to have bought the 2010 Liege-Bastogne - Liège Kolobnev. The price of victory would have been set at 150,000 euros. The file was forwarded to the Court of Liege so that he traces his indictment referring to the criminal court of Liege. A procedure which should take a few months.

    If the two men deny the facts and they still enjoy the presumption of innocence, that the double jeopardy in a situation to say the least uncomfortable. The noose is tightening so a little more around the Kazakh Vinokourov and Kolobnev of Russia ...

    The Liege investigators have strong hardware such as two installments of 50,000 and 100,000 euros. The amounts were based on the Monegasque Land Bank, the Bank of Vino in the BSI Locarno (Switzerland), that of Kolobnev. 150,000 euros is the sum proposed, a few kilometers from the finish by Vino to Kolobnev to give him victory in Liege-Bastogne-Liege.Financial flows are unequivocal. On July 12, 2010, Kolobnev received an initial payment of 100,000 euros from Vinokourov. On 28 December, he received a second 50,000 euros. The investigators examined the bank accounts of Vinokourov and discovered a mysterious silver arrival of 150,000 euros in the bank account of Vinokourov. The money was paid by the Cycling Federation of the Republic of Kazakhstan.

    To justify this payment, the Kazakh cycling federation had invoked a bonus of 150,000 euros allocated to Vinokourov of Kazakhstan as the best rider of the year 2010, a price that did not exist and that the federation had created to encourage Kazakh to get good results in international tests riders.

    This influx of money was much appreciated Vino because he had just paid € 150,000 to Kolobnev, the runner on the podium in 2010 LBL. Sounds like a gift from the cycling federation to his demigod Kazakh.
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #70 on: August 21, 2014, 16:29 »
    Both have been served and deny charges  2015 early for trial

    https://twitter.com/SkyOrla/status/502475380532727808
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  • AG

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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #71 on: August 22, 2014, 01:58 »
    interesting

    I always wondered why it had never really progressed to charges.
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  • Jamsque

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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #72 on: August 22, 2014, 02:29 »
    Unfortunately I think the decision to prosecute both of them means that it will be very hard to get a conviction, since both will deny it to protect themselves. The only way I could have seen this leading to charges sticking was if Kolobnev turned states evidence.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #73 on: August 22, 2014, 08:17 »
    So in case they lose the trial, who would be the winner? Kolobnev or Gilbert?
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #74 on: August 22, 2014, 08:59 »
    So in case they lose the trial, who would be the winner? Kolobnev or Gilbert?
    I think the Belgian justice system cares less about that, and more about the corruption - leaving the LBL palmarès for ASO/UCI to sort out.
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    just some guy

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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #75 on: September 30, 2015, 12:17 »
    not sure if this is from L-B-L or something else   :lol

    https://twitter.com/SkyOrla/status/649180226761699328
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #76 on: September 30, 2015, 12:19 »
    he just released his book yesterday, maybe there's a confession in there :P



    looks more like the story of a hero though
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  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    Joelsim

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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #77 on: September 30, 2015, 12:28 »
    Vino and Kolobnev are going to face a criminal trial with a jail term the likely outcome
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #78 on: September 30, 2015, 12:36 »
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #79 on: September 30, 2015, 12:44 »
    Vino will have to add another chapter to the book, perhaps with tips on picking soap up off the floor without bending over
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #80 on: September 30, 2015, 14:09 »
    Let it go, gangsta ...

    You aks me what they do. They ain't been true.

    No smoke without fire but they gone retired.

    Iced out cold with they ho's in Monaco casinos.

    They bought and sold races with poker faces.

    DA may get a conviction but here's mah prediction.

    These cats committed crime but they'll do no time.

    They won't pay a dime, cuz it gots to rhyme.
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #81 on: September 30, 2015, 14:25 »
    I guess Vino and Kolobnev simply won't visit Belgium anymore, then.
    Or would the *be authorities be able to get them extradited from other *eu countries? :shh
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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #82 on: September 30, 2015, 14:39 »
    I guess Vino and Kolobnev simply won't visit Belgium anymore, then.
    Or would the *be authorities be able to get them extradited from other *eu countries? :shh

    France = automatic demand for representation, binding decision
    Monaco = probable demand for representation, binding decision

    Just for fun, why not download your own copy of an European Arrest Warrant
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #83 on: September 30, 2015, 14:52 »
    Just for fun, why not download your own copy of an European Arrest Warrant
    Your idea of 'fun' differs ever so slightly from mine, thank you very much. :P
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  • ciranda

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    Re: Vinokourov LBL 2010
    « Reply #84 on: September 30, 2015, 16:10 »
    Belgian Alcatraz, late fall. It's raining. Prisoners spread out to distinct groups in the courtyard while guards with machine guns watch from the towers. The sound of dogs howling is heard from beyond the perimeter. Two newly arrived men, tiny figures in training suits and overcoats, huddle close by the basketball court. No one are playing.

    A man breaks away from one of the groups and heads toward the new inmates.

    - What they got you here for? he asks.

    One of the men shrugs and shakes his head a little.

    - I am what you could say a patron here, the man continues. My name is Bernard also known as the lérot. For me they say I am a bank robber, which is true, and a murderer but that is not true because I never hurt nobody. What are your names?

    - Alexander, says one of the men.

    - Alexander, says the other one.

    The man nods. - Ah, he says. So why are you here?

    He offers cigarettes. They both take one and the slightly taller of the two shrugs again.

    - They say we cheated in a bicycle race.

    The patron laughs with surprise. The new inmates notice a long irregular scar on the man's face from his left eye to the chin below the ear. There is a darker look in his eyes now as he nods slowly and starts to walk away.

    - Well, he says. Just remember it's better to have friends here.
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  • « Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 18:52 by ciranda, Reason: spelling »

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