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ram

Women's cycling - Darkside
« on: November 30, 2012, 11:53 »
Why does it get such a free pass? Apart from not GAF about it, but even among those who do. It may be more brazen (not effectiveness in avoiding getting caught) than WT men's teams.

Now lack of prize money is often offered as an argument for its relative cleanliness. Fair enough, but they were low even in Longo's heyday. It also hasn't been a deterrent in doping programmes outside Europe.

In fact, a lack of prize money would mean a lack of funding and thereby, comparative lack of testing.

After all, EPO can be bought easily for less than hundred euros.

And I will mention that I think Tilford's blag is a load of balls. But I also won't trust Cherise Stander or Moolman if asked.
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  • « Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 07:47 by just some guy »

    just some guy

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 11:57 »
    a few have got pinged but not many.

    I have no idea if the women even have a bio-passport tbh

    but it should be discussed.

    Some of the non focus is due to all focus on the mens side, I swear there are cycling fans who may not even know there is womens racing
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 11:58 »
    to be totally honest ram - the truth is its unlikely that womens cycling is clean either.

    Any elite competition is incredibly competitive, and there is an element who will do whatever it takes to win - and that means crossing the line into performance enhancing drugs.

    I dont know enough about any woman cyclist to judge which ones might have taken those steps or not, but its unlikely that its totally clean.

    Having said that - money is the element which elevates cheating to a new level, and there isnt much money in womens cycling, so its also unlikely that the problem is as extensive as in mens cycling.
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  • ram

    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 12:00 »
    a few have got pinged but not many.

    I have no idea if the women even have a bio-passport tbh
    Even men's continental tours don't have bio passport controls. It's very easy for them to dodge the existing tests. EPO has a detection window of around half a day, no? Tabriz have never had anyone pinged, but it's known (after some scouring after being pushed in that direction) that they're chargers.

    Having said that - money is the element which elevates cheating to a new level, and there isnt much money in womens cycling, so its also unlikely that the problem is as extensive as in mens cycling.
    Dunno about that, while it may not be as extensive in terms of comprehensive doping and avoidance of testing, it's not all that difficult or expensive to dope. Asia tour isn't a never ending piggy bank unlike WT, but there is doping.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #4 on: November 30, 2012, 12:04 »
    Even men's continental tours don't have bio passport controls. It's very easy for them to dodge the existing tests. EPO has a detection window of around half a day, no? Tabriz have never had anyone pinged, but it's known (after some scouring after being pushed in that direction) that they're chargers.
    Dunno about that, while it may not be as extensive in terms of comprehensive doping and avoidance of testing, it's not all that difficult or expensive to dope. Asia tour isn't a never ending piggy bank unlike WT, but there is doping.

    Agreed there is doping, and 1-2 have been done for EPO on the womens side, but as you say not often.

    whether from not doping or lack of controls ??
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  • ram

    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 12:13 »
    Aye, I'm not everyone's on dope, but it never gets covered. And I don't follow the second part.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 22:48 »
    On the surface it wouldnt be unreasonable to say that there is less doping in the womens sport.

    Theres the financial aspect:
    Not nearly so much money in the sport to make it worthwhile cheating seriously
    Not that much money to invest in top level doping problems

    The second aspect is Physiological
    I dont know if youve bumped into any girl racers but the handful ive bumped into like Lizzie Armitstead of Laura Trott, theres nothing to them, its like being in a playground full of underdeveloped teans. One whiff of HGH and they would swell up like Augustus Gloop. It would be noticable. Diuretics maybe, but certainly cant see much use of HGH going on.

    Then theres the races
    Where undoubtedly the drug of choice is EPO. Womens races are much much shorter, and at longest are what 8 days, they dont have the 3 week, 200km a day gruelling races that the men have, so the need to dope with EPO is much less. I dont know how many race days someone like Vos did last year, sadly CQ doesnt seem to cover women, but i would guess its less than most of the world tour domestiques by a fair way.

    Im sure there is doping in the womens sport, but I would guess it was considerably less than in the mens sport.
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  • ansimi

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 06:14 »
    Women have a very different relationship with their bodies from men. We approach health issues and make decisions differently. Women would definitely be more concerned about the unattractive side effects of doping than men. Also women and even quite young girls tend to be quite mindful of the potential for growing a new human being in their bodies.

    Also, women talk! Seriously, have you ever heard of a code of silence being successful in a female sub-culture? Women are much quicker to turn on each other than men.

    I think the small-time pill-popping is probably very common among women athletes. Lots of off-label use of prescription drugs. In fact, almost every female athlete I know manipulates her period with off-label use. Nobody gets her period at the Olympics!

    Most cases I've known about where women were on serious doping programs involved a father-figure or lover overseeing the program.
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  • ram

    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #8 on: December 01, 2012, 17:49 »
    Most doping programme has a third party involved, else we're into the realms of every other doper turning into Ricco.

    And I'm most defo not going to believe the women turning on each other. When someone/anyone (be it male, female or hermaphrodite) has anything to hide, they'll hide it. There are just as many women liars as there are men (Rebekah Brooks, for a simple example). Unless it's a sarcasm bypass.

    Now certain drugs like testos would have glaring effects and them not being a favourite choice is understandable (but Tammy Thomas grew whiskers becoming a tabby). That being avoided by the majority is understandable.

    Then theres the races
    Where undoubtedly the drug of choice is EPO. Womens races are much much shorter, and at longest are what 8 days, they dont have the 3 week, 200km a day gruelling races that the men have, so the need to dope with EPO is much less. I dont know how many race days someone like Vos did last year, sadly CQ doesnt seem to cover women, but i would guess its less than most of the world tour domestiques by a fair way.

    Im sure there is doping in the womens sport, but I would guess it was considerably less than in the mens sport.
    I really don't think that this will, or should, play a part in it. Ivailo Gabrovski had no hope of a 3 week tour; and his performances this year were in one race, with not too many demanding stages.

    Cq does rank women, btw. Vos has 50-60 days racing while Arndt, on top, has nearly 70.

    My opinion, and just an opinion, is that a lot of the kumbaya comes from the negligible coverage to women's doping in cycling (apart from that Longo case, but how much of that would be reported if Papp didn't speak out?). But without just blaming the media, what about the tests? Same as the men for a race leader? What tests are done? Do em all and the costs sky rocket, so why would they?
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  • « Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 18:03 by ram »

    just some guy

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 11:20 »


    http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/12/analysis/opinion-thompson-says-cleaning-house-is-the-only-way-forward_267849

    As cycling’s latest doping conspiracy unfolded, I was more than a little surprised to read an article in which the author flatly stated that women’s pro ranks were unaffected, “since there wasn’t the prize money involved, etc., there was just no reason for the women to dope.”

    Oh really?

    With one general statement, the author can simply wipe away reality and, yes, the many women who have tested positive or otherwise been mired in their own controversies. Where has she been? After spending 10 years in a sport that I passionately loved, I finally, regretfully, sadly, and quite angrily walked away with a sense of disappointment and resignation. Over those final years I was repeatedly subjected to pressures to be a “team player” by the very same people who eventually went on to work with the U.S. Postal Service and the coaches for up-and-coming riders of today that were “forced” to dope.
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  • ram

    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 12:56 »
    And this was the 'cleaner' 80s.
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  • ram

    Re: Women\'s cycling
    « Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 04:42 »
    The Italian Olympic Committee (CONI) has announced that it has imposed a ban on Elena Giacomuzzi for doping.
    Giacomuzzi received a four-year ban but three years were suspended of it as she co-operated with the authorities.
    Giacomuzzi's remaining one-year ban was considered effective from 24 June 2012 and will expire on 23 June 2013. She is also required to pay the costs of the proceedings against her, which was the standard rate of €1,000.
    She tested positive at the Italian marathon nationals on 24 June 2012.

    http://www.sportsdirectnews.com/cycling/9986-giacomuzzi-banned-for-doping.php

    She tested positive for methylprednisolone and recombinant erythropoietin. Old school type.

    Post Merge: December 22, 2012, 11:49
    http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=20362
    Quote
    “I have a young team with the average age being 23 so I feel it’s important to educate my athletes about the risk of contamination, innocent thoughtless mistakes and the temptation or influences to dope,” Gilmore said.

    Quote
    “Whilst systematic doping is not present in Women’s cycling, women are at high risk of returning a positive test due to accidently consuming a banned substance.

    “Doping is not constantly on the mind of female cyclists and therefore they are not educated or experienced enough to know when they might be consuming a banned medication. Education is our motivation to partner with Bike Pure,” Gilmore said.
    So do we accept Contador's clen as accidental and Schleck's diuretic as poisoning conspiracy? Would such balls even be remotely accepted if it were a male or any other sport for that?

    Also accidental?
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/leleivyte-positive-for-epo
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  • « Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 11:49 by Havetts, Reason: Merged DoublePost »

    froome19

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #12 on: December 29, 2012, 23:48 »
    Random but interesting fact I saw:

    Spoiler (hover to show)

    Take that as you may.
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  • RIP Keith

    ram

    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 06:34 »
    Got a source for that? Cos that's a pathetically low number.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #14 on: December 30, 2012, 09:44 »
    That is what I thought..

    I got it from an article in Cyclesport magazine interviewing Francesca Rossi the head of the anti doping department of the UCI.
    The article was ridiculously bland due to the fact that she was flanked by PR guys who kept a very strict watch on what was said and not and it effectively became a critique on the omerta of the UCI.

    The stat was alongside the article and so I assume it came from a question asked in that same interview with her.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #15 on: July 19, 2013, 23:05 »
    Digging this out again ...

    I was just looking at a press release from Team Hitec Products about the U23 women's ITT European championships, where Rossella Ratto won the silver medal, beaten by Hanna Solovey. They stop just short of accusing her of doping:
    Quote
    Even though women's cycling is a very clean sport, that may not be true for this Solovey from Ukraine. She was caught doping in the Tour of Chongming Island, only 19 years old, and got a two-year suspension [the positive test was for drostanolone; my addition]. This is her first race as a senior. She crushes the rest of the field, and in the attached analysis "EC ITT" you can see how fast she's really been. Even ITT world champion Judith Arndt struggles at reaching the top-30 of a men's junior field. Here we have a 21-year old who rode so fast that she would have been 4th in the men's junior ITT at the European championships. This performance is simply out of this world for such a young woman. It has caused outrage on the internet. Second-placed Rossella Ratto would have been no. 42 in the men's junior field, which is "normal".
    (my translation from Norwegian)



    Now, throwing doping accusations around based solely on times may be frowned upon. But if you have someone coming back from a doping suspension, destroying the field completely in their first race back, it smells. Bad.
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  • 2017 0711|CYCLING PR Manager; 2016 Stölting Content Editor
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    RIP Keith

    just some guy

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    « Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 07:47 by just some guy, Reason: wrong drug listed 1st time »

    Dim

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 22:16 »
    Clem positive


    Not Clem. Clostebol which is basically a steroid. Team say was administered by using  Trofodermin, a spray on to relieve an injury. Apparently the rider has provided proof of purchase of the spray. Ban to be decided.

    Likely story, but still stupid. should know to check these things for steroids, so many skin creams have them.

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  • Dim

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #19 on: August 09, 2013, 01:51 »
    Quote
    “Whilst systematic doping is not present in Women’s cycling, women are at high risk of returning a positive test due to accidently consuming a banned substance.

    “Doping is not constantly on the mind of female cyclists and therefore they are not educated or experienced enough to know when they might be consuming a banned medication. Education is our motivation to partner with Bike Pure,” Gilmore said.
    So do we accept Contador's clen as accidental and Schleck's diuretic as poisoning conspiracy? Would such balls even be remotely accepted if it were a male or any other sport for that?


    I can see to an extent where Rochelle is coming from here. The mens sport is very different, teams have doctors, multiple doctors, nutritionists, coaches, if a guy takes a training knock, he speaks to the team doctor, he advises him on exactly what to take, the nutritionists tell them what supplements to take (usually sponsored) etc. With the girls its very different, teams have a physio, some have a doctor, but the structure is different. they spend a lot of time at home training, if they get a knock very often their port of call is just the local GP, or they go straight to the chemist. There is a lot more room for error.

    That said, theres absolutely no excuse for not having either a printed copy of the banned list, or having a copy of the pdf on your phone and checking before you use any over the counter product.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #20 on: August 09, 2013, 07:42 »
    That said, theres absolutely no excuse for not having either a printed copy of the banned list, or having a copy of the pdf on your phone and checking before you use any over the counter product.
    Exactly.
    It still wouldn't help you if there's something in there that's not on the list of ingredients, though.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #21 on: August 09, 2013, 07:45 »
    Not Clem. Clostebol which is basically a steroid. Team say was administered by using  Trofodermin, a spray on to relieve an injury. Apparently the rider has provided proof of purchase of the spray. Ban to be decided.

    Likely story, but still stupid. should know to check these things for steroids, so many skin creams have them.

    oppps will update the posts
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #22 on: August 12, 2013, 14:26 »
    And that they are most likely not to dope because of a lack of money rewards.  Not true, as this is not the only motivator for both women cyclists and the men that help them.  Glory and ego have just as strong a part to play, although on this I will allow a little stereotype and say that ego will come more from the men behind the women than the women themselves, but not generally across the board of course.

    Well the lack of money prices would make it harder to dope in female cycling, doping is really expensive, at least if you want a good program and not to get caught. Are there any female cyclist earning enough through cycling to fund a good doping program, I don't know?
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #23 on: October 20, 2013, 18:47 »
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #24 on: July 15, 2014, 13:03 »
    Olga Zabelinskie Olympic bronze medialist london RR 



    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=nl?sl=auto&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fitar-tass.com%2Fsport%2F1318280


    octopamine



    Octopamine Benefits

    In invertebrate animals, Octopamine is an important compound which is involved in all energy demanding activities such as flying and jumping. Less research has been conducted on the effects of Octopamine on humans, however, there is some evidence to suggest that Octopamine can activate β3 adrenoreceptors, which are receptors in the body which are responsible for increasing fat metabolism in fat tissue as well as regulating thermogenesis in skeletal muscle.



    http://www.mrsupplement.com.au/octopamine
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  • pastronef

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #25 on: July 16, 2014, 21:41 »
    The Broom Wagon @broomwagonblog  1h 
    Rabo women complete the podium at the womens Giro and nobody questions it. If Sky or Saxo did that in a race, twitter would explode.

    Mike Adams
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    @broomwagonblog its because, sadly, no one is watching.
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  • riding too slowly

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #26 on: July 16, 2014, 22:26 »
    So do we accept Contador's clen as accidental and Schleck's diuretic as poisoning conspiracy? Would such balls even be remotely accepted if it were a male or any other sport for that?



    I can see to an extent where Rochelle is coming from here. The mens sport is very different, teams have doctors, multiple doctors, nutritionists, coaches, if a guy takes a training knock, he speaks to the team doctor, he advises him on exactly what to take, the nutritionists tell them what supplements to take (usually sponsored) etc. With the girls its very different, teams have a physio, some have a doctor, but the structure is different. they spend a lot of time at home training, if they get a knock very often their port of call is just the local GP, or they go straight to the chemist. There is a lot more room for error.

    That said, theres absolutely no excuse for not having either a printed copy of the banned list, or having a copy of the pdf on your phone and checking before you use any over the counter product.
    No, you are giving Gilmore too much slack rope.  It is not different, they all know the care they need to take.  Gilmore has a seriously vested interest in "nothing to see here - move along please"
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  • « Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 22:37 by riding too slowly »

    riding too slowly

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #27 on: July 16, 2014, 22:34 »
    The Broom Wagon @broomwagonblog  1h 
    Rabo women complete the podium at the womens Giro and nobody questions it. If Sky or Saxo did that in a race, twitter would explode.

    Mike Adams
    @vayerism     
    @broomwagonblog its because, sadly, no one is watching.

    Came on tonight to see what response it got.  Shocking riding. 

    The three rabos were going to do everything it took to win.  A very bad sign.  With "honest I never even seen a spot of dope once ever" Blijlevens as DS it is looking bad.  This is the guy who after signing his life away was exposed in the French senate released test results.  He even managed to have a fight with Julrich one year.  This is looking bad for women's cycling.

    [Hadnot picked up on Hanna Solovey.  Taking the P**S big style.  - thanks for posting.]
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  • Vimto

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #28 on: July 17, 2014, 00:57 »
    i tried to bring it up elsewhere on the interwebs and got shouted down pretty quickly.  No-one will tolerate the idea that Marianne Vos may be anything less than the Mary Poppins of Women's cycling...practically perfect in every way.... :(
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #29 on: July 18, 2014, 09:49 »
    i tried to bring it up elsewhere on the interwebs and got shouted down pretty quickly.  No-one will tolerate the idea that Marianne Vos may be anything less than the Mary Poppins of Women's cycling...practically perfect in every way.... :(

    It's a tough one for me.

    On one hand, it's almost impossible to believe there's no doping going on in the women's peloton. There evidently was a number of years ago, so why wouldn't there be now? And if there is doping then of course Vos is right on top of the list of suspects.

    But on the other hand, seeing Vos in interviews etc., it's really hard for me to imagine her as a cheater. That's not an argument of course, but the complete lack of evidence either way doesn't help either.

    At the moment there is no proof anyone dopes in the women's peloton, so I like to assume innocence - like I do with all individual riders. But there is always scepticism in this sport, and that should apply to women's cycling too.
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