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Re: Women's cycling
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2014, 18:04 »
It's a tough one for me.

On one hand, it's almost impossible to believe there's no doping going on in the women's peloton. There evidently was a number of years ago, so why wouldn't there be now? And if there is doping then of course Vos is right on top of the list of suspects.

But on the other hand, seeing Vos in interviews etc., it's really hard for me to imagine her as a cheater. That's not an argument of course, but the complete lack of evidence either way doesn't help either.

At the moment there is no proof anyone dopes in the women's peloton, so I like to assume innocence - like I do with all individual riders. But there is always scepticism in this sport, and that should apply to women's cycling too.
The testing continues to be very poor and that is what gives us all problems. but it may be getting closer.  Then against the evidence of results that appear too good to be true,  there are people like Lizzie Armistead saying that the sport is clean, move along there now, when her big result came the day after Vino won gold in London.  and the thread above has Zabelinskie who worked with Armistead to hold off the bunch, testing positive when she obviously thought there would be no testing in Columbia. Those sort of comments are for suckers, whether stated in innocence or to misconstrue.  There is still a loud background noise that distorts what we are trying to come to terms with.

Set aside Vos for now and go back to Van Morsel.  At Athens she sure did burn up the rubber in the ITT, with Michael Barry's wife undoubtedly taking regular doses from the family fridge to come second.  It is inconceivable that van Morsel was not on the juice.  OK I am not in Holland but it appears nobody has gone near her and the lack of effectiveness of any investigation into the Dutch men from the era, in fact that they seem to have virtually a free pass from the Fed, "Tell us you never doped and then you can continue to work in the sport, we can tick the box, investigation concluded", indicates that  there is no stomach to expose the stars.  That is not a situation unique to Holland, undoubtedly it is identical here in the UK and across sports other than cycling.  The Dublin inquiry refers to systemised doping in UK Athletics during the 80's and yet years later, even when one of the Scottish Sprint boys confessed and said their records should be scrubbed, the authorities just pretended not to hear and the records stand.  Imagine the first domino the Scottish team sprint, next Alan Wells, then Fatima Whitbread, Daley Thompson and others.  British Atheltics was at a very ugly place, because they thought that is what they had to do to compete, being clean and losing was not what that generation were about. 

So what would UK Sport and BC do if they got close to Froome or Brad doping or the Dutch Federation were in a similar situation with Vos.  I  think there would be no stomach to go public, there  would be just too many facilitators too close to the action, in Nationaly funded positions.  It would not be one person, just like UK Athletics knew contagion would probably wipe T&F off the map in the UK, so they opted to be deaf and blind.

I have equal skepticism about Brad concentrating on the CG track, Froome hurting his wrist and Vos having time off so that she can't win the World Cup.  All those "punishments", fit the bill of about the max the authorities would go to with stars that are "too big to fail".  Lance was undoubtedly "too big to fail" even when the Federal investigation was pulled against Novotski's wishes.  I certainly know how I felt when I learnt that the Grand Jury Evidence would be wrapped up and locked away never to see daylight - the b'stard has pulled off a come back and ridden out Floyd's letter, because he can pull too many strings, he is not going down - too big to fail.  Taggart starting all over again and getting the same people to sing the same tune twice, was one heck of a long shot.  I am not terribly confident it would happen anywhere else again. 
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #31 on: August 11, 2014, 19:45 »
    I'm not sure Vos is really 'too big to fall'. Her value in terms of sponsorships is probably comparable to that of, say, Geraint Thomas. Not even a fraction of the value Wiggins and Froome have, never mind Armstrong. She's well known as the best cyclist in the world, but even here in the Netherlands a number of male cyclists are bigger - as are a few hundred athletes from other sports, especially football. Yes, it would be a blow for the Dutch cycling federation if Vos was suspended, but nothing compared to if for instance Mollema was found guilty of doping. For the UCI and WADA the importance of Vos is even less. So it would really surprise me if Vos were protected by the authorities, especially if those same authorities are willing to throw people like Contador and Kreuziger under the train.

    Also remember that the nature of women's cycling makes it hard to make a comparison to the men's peloton. It is less professional, there are less athletes competing, the degree of professionalism strongly differs per team. But perhaps most importantly: Vos' biggest weapon is her explosiveness. At her core, she is still a sprinter; one who can do very well on hills and short explosive stuff like Huy, but still a sprinter. Once the road does go seriously uphill for longer periods, true climbers like Pooley and Abbott are better than her.

    So consider Vos' situation: a very strong sprinter on the best team of the sport competing on race parcours that are never longer than 150 km and barely ever feature really high mountains. How surprising is it that she's dominant?

    All this is not to say Vos does not dope. However, given the complete lack of evidence I will continue to consider her innocent until proven guilty, as I do with everyone. I try never to say someone must be doping based on performances alone - not Froome, not Horner. I hope to hold Vos to that same standard, even if I am very biased in her case.

    What I do agree on though is that the attention to doping on the women's side of the sport is probably too limited. Less testing than with the men, no real inquiries, few journalists asking the really tough questions. There almost has to be doping going on there, given the history of the sport, yet we haven't seen much come out.
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  • riding too slowly

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #32 on: August 11, 2014, 23:45 »
    I'm not sure Vos is really 'too big to fall'. Her value ..................
    ............... few journalists asking the really tough questions. There almost has to be doping going on there, given the history of the sport, yet we haven't seen much come out.
    I am going along with all of that,  Blilevens was a "red light" for me every bit as much as Leinders, Barry, de Jong, Yates Julrich and Sutton were at Sky. 

    I think the bit that makes the less sponsored athletes "too big to fail" are the connections, too many attachments within the Federations supporting them.   That is undoubtedly what stopped any form of worthwhile exposures at UK Athletics - the contagion would have been so wide, the collateral damage would be too great for the sport to remain in existence in the form known, and that is when the blazers find other things to be looking at, rather than what they should be looking at. 
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #33 on: August 12, 2014, 11:56 »
    I am going along with all of that,  Blilevens was a "red light" for me every bit as much as Leinders, Barry, de Jong, Yates Julrich and Sutton were at Sky. 

    I think the bit that makes the less sponsored athletes "too big to fail" are the connections, too many attachments within the Federations supporting them.   That is undoubtedly what stopped any form of worthwhile exposures at UK Athletics - the contagion would have been so wide, the collateral damage would be too great for the sport to remain in existence in the form known, and that is when the blazers find other things to be looking at, rather than what they should be looking at. 

    True, I forgot about Blijlevens for a moment. But on the other hand, Rabobank as sponsor won't be willing to take any risks given their history. The slightest indication of doping in their team and they're gone. Would the team be willing to take such risks? Perhaps it's just me being naive (again), but I find it hard to see team involvement in any doping programme at Rabo. I don't think it's worth the risk any more. Which doesn't discount the possibility of doping on an individual or small group level, of course.

    As for the too big to fall thing.. Not sure about that. Do national federations have that much influence on dope testing? Honest question, I don't know how exactly it works. But from what I think it's mostly done by organisations like the WADA, not the Dutch cycling union. And does WADA really have so much of an interest in Vos to protect her? I doubt it.
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    riding too slowly

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #36 on: August 31, 2015, 16:49 »
    Long time since we looked at this.  I watched the worlds RR in 2014 and was not at all sure of what I was meant to be looking at in the last stages. 

    Have to say it looked like VOS was stalling on a couple of occasions.  When she and Amitstead had the gap normally she would have driven on and got to the finish as a pair and won the sprint.  Instead she eased and allowed the group to swell in size.  Then closing to the finish she went easy, looking to be caught and if the break went slow enough,  she was going to look for FPF  chasing from behind and  lead her out for the win.  I didn't post up because I thought although it fitted my cycnical theory, my theory was just way too whacky to be true.  That theory was  that Vos was on a silent ban because she was "too big to fall"  and in it was "you can ride the worlds, that gives the race credibility but you can't win it".  I kept quiet, my theory was too crazy for me. 

    Two things set me thinking. 

    The Dutch girl with a face severely pockmarked like that of Vos, doing sprint times at the Athletics that are only beaten by two unconvicted dopers FloJo and Jones.  That required a serious leap of faith to think it was done clean.  I am not anti-Dutch the model for my concerns is just how good GB have become across so many sports, including those traditionally dominated by dopers.  I don't believe in a lot of those GB performances either.

    Then, same week-end  - I just don''t buy Wiggle rider Julien d'Hoore world cup leader staying home to train rather than go to the final race of the series.  The publicity, even if she losses, is still a great story, there is a whole gang of fans who like a plucky loser and not attending with such a lame excuse is just such a totally negative story it does so much harm to the image of the sport.  It devalues the winner, the event, d'Hoore and team Wiggle.  Listening to Rochelle in the commentary, I just can't imagine her not allowing her rider not to ride, unless there really was a very big reason not to ride.   The more I listened to Rochelle bigging up the sport, throughout her commentary, the more doubtful I became. 

    Our comments above related to Vos not riding last year.  Vos not riding this year is again weird.  There has been plenty of smokescreen activity, but it all smacks of those times Longo did not ride and later it was widely rumoured that they were silent bans from the French Fed.  The Fed made the call, too big to fail, let's achieve the ban by different means. The whacky excuses Ciprelli came out with about buying the epo from Joe Papp for his own cycling took the p*ss big style.  I think no-one would now doubt that Longo not riding was the reality of those silent bans.  The outcome is the same but the sport is not dragged through the muck by the doper.  Not publicly shaming the doper is a price the French Fed was willing to pay.  Who says the Dutch Fed aren't at the same place ?

    Kristy Scrymgeour has given up with her crowd sourced team and announced she was going to do other stuff.  Lucy Martin, part of the London 2012 road team,  packed it in last week - she is 25 ! Trott's sister last year.  The whole scene looks as insecure as hell.  One damn good PED story and every one of the few sponsors left would leave.  Vos testing positive would kill it, she is way more to women's cycling than Bolt is to T&F.  I can understand the motivation for a silent ban. 

    So what sort of pressure would cause Rochelle to allow her World Cup leader to stay at home and train ?  Lack of training time would not cut it with a manager as committed to the scene as Rochelle, that is for sure.  Testing positive and if a silent ban is good enough for Vos, it is good enough for the current World Cup leader, would be just the ticket. Now that would make it a story that could not come out without the whole show imploding, but if a Belgian official had got wind of what the Dutch were doing in respect of Vos, it would sure as hell be a card they would play  if d'Hoore had gone positive.  One call, what do we do?  If we have to go public with d'Hoore we are going public on the favoritism you allowed the Dutch Fed with  Vos, how do you want to play it ? It is easy enough to imagine that some of the 2nd rate officials that tend to hang around women's cycling would allow themselves to get into this mess.   It is a small world and there are plenty of officials with loose tongues so news of a secret silent ban could travel now, just as it did for Longo in the past.  And once in that mess, getting out of it is going to be real hard. 


    I know, it is as "conspiracy based" as they come.  And whilst I am at it, I am going to put my cards on the table and say that women's peloton has looked two speed for some time.  I would not have allowed myself to go into print before but that video of the Giro and the Rabo girls riding like idiots, but obviously to the DSs plan and that DS being Blilevens, has long-term left a bad taste in my mouth and recent events don't allow it to leave.  There is no blood passport for the girls and if the men can waltz it, there are going to be girls defeating the lower threshold of testing that is in front of them, as well.

    I am not comfortable with what I have written, but at the moment I am not sure what I am seeing.  The explanations that are being put out there just don't hold water.  I would be glad to learn what others think.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #37 on: August 31, 2015, 17:23 »
    I would be glad to learn what others think.
    Thanks for the lengthy post, attempting to explain some of the "weird" things going on in the women's peloton.

    I'm not convinced that it has to be like that, but I won't deny it out of hand. The Women's World Cup has been big until recently, so the leader not even taking to the start line in the final event is a bit odd.

    That said, the explanation given (train with Worlds in mind) isn't so very far out - a possible #rainbow jersey beats trying to win the #wcleader World Cup hands down (especially if it's almost certain you won't keep it against vd Breggen & Armitstead).

    Voske's time-out is strange too. But, she's been racing almost year-round since she was 17 (?). At some point your body simply says stop. It could simply be fatigue catching up with her (and why it didn't catch up with her earlier is another question, then).
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    Kiwirider

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #38 on: August 31, 2015, 22:02 »
    From the Wiggle Honda website - entry dated 23 August:

    The Belgian Champion now has a total of 391 points with one race to go, six points ahead of Anna van der Breggen (Rabo-Liv). Longo Borghini sits in fourth place, on 320 points, ahead of next week’s GP Plouay-Bretagne.

    “The plan was not to do Plouay, I just want to have a proper training next week for the World Championships,” said D’hoore. “But [Directeur Sportif Egon van Kessel] said to me ‘you’ve got three days to think about it,’ so it’s not 100% sure yet. But there’s a big chance I’m not doing Plouay.

    “I think we have a big chance with Elisa next week and, if she wins Plouay, she can take the leader’s jersey. It’s not up to me.”


    So, maybe planned well in advance and fits with the plan.

    As RTS implies, Rochelle Gilmore is very committed - and with that commitment comes a really calculated and controlled side to her character. (I say that from having met her a few times.) So, you can bet that she'll have worked out the potential benefits from winning the World Cup vs the World Champs down to the last decimal place ...

    ... and when you consider that one of the benefits of winning the World Champs is to carry the rainbow jersey all year, I will lay you an odds on bet as to which way she'd be pushing D'hoore.

    If the break from racing was longer than it is, I'd definitely be suspicious and more than a touch cynical - as anyone who's read pretty much any of my other posts knows that I am!!!  :D  Right now though, this hasn't got my personal bullsh*t detector going off. Time will tell how well calibrated it is ... or  maybe not ...  ;) ;)
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  • riding too slowly

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #39 on: August 31, 2015, 23:13 »
    Rochelle Gilmore .....'ll have worked out the potential benefits from winning the World Cup vs the World Champs down to the last decimal place ...

    ... and when you consider that one of the benefits of winning the World Champs is to carry the rainbow jersey all year, I will lay you an odds on bet as to which way she'd be pushing D'hoore.


    So the upshot of that is Bronzini, who rode at Plouay, is not going for the World Championships ?  Knowing how well the Italian girls prepare for the World Championships, I am not quite sure that will be the case.   Certainly the case will be proven if d'Hoore takes the title.

    I googled Egon van Kessel.  I am not liking those Saturn links in 1998 or 1999, (that is red hot Rene Wenzel country, the hooters are going off when his name appears) or Farm Frites in 2000. 

    Maybe this is going to be an interesting World Championships - again.
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  • Kiwirider

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #40 on: September 01, 2015, 04:09 »

    I googled Egon van Kessel.  I am not liking those Saturn links in 1998 or 1999, (that is red hot Rene Wenzel country, the hooters are going off when his name appears) or Farm Frites in 2000. 


    And his links with Cervelo Test Team and Garmin-Cannondale (he made it through JV's filters, even if budget issues saw the demise of the women's team before the season started)?

    As some of his most recent involvement with teams, they're probably more relevant than the Saturn days.




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  • L'arri

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #41 on: September 01, 2015, 10:41 »
    I think it was Einstein who said that if genius truly exists, it is surely the capability of allowing two completely opposing ideas equal weight in one's thought.

    I am not a genius, of course, but I can accept the possibility of a silent cabal in women's cycling as equally as I can accept there isn't one. That the sport is so small and so intimate is a reason both for and against it.

    A silent ban seems as probable to me as a self-imposed ban. Since the case for a silent ban has been intriguingly well put above, I thought it relevant to present the self-imposed ban.

    Vos' story to me is plausible if it isn't all about the hamstring injury - for no elite sportsperson takes a year to get over that - and her story still works with or without the doping angle:

    She is young yet for years already she has singlehandedly carried the mantle of international women's cycling and the Olympics on her shoulders in all disciplines. As a singular figure, she's expected to be a role model and an ambassador and to be much more articulate than most of the men.

    That's a recipe for burnout. You reach her age, you've done nothing but train, train, train and race for years and you've won almost everything there is to win. What now ... ?

    Meanwhile the team that was for so long all about you can now afford to pay for and develop the best young talents in the sport. With a comparatively small investment, I think one can go a long way like that in women's cycling and quickly.

    Vos must recognise that women's cycling cannot properly grow when the narrative is about one rider dominating everything. So why not let the team become a broader force?

    I think Vos will come back to try for the Olympics - that is a big goal that one can try to repeat - but I wouldn't be at all surprised if her career ends in the next couple of years.
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    L'arri

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #42 on: September 01, 2015, 11:15 »
    I forgot to add that, to be fair to Jolien D'Hoore, she is still racing this week. She didn't want to be tired for the Boels Tour, for which she could legitimately expect a win or two, and lose three days in Plouay.

    And after the racing we saw at Plouay, I think she made a good choice. I don't say it was the right choice for the sport, but it was probably the right one for her.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #43 on: September 01, 2015, 15:48 »
    I forgot to add that, to be fair to Jolien D'Hoore, she is still racing this week. She didn't want to be tired for the Boels Tour, for which she could legitimately expect a win or two, and lose three days in Plouay.

    And after the racing we saw at Plouay, I think she made a good choice. I don't say it was the right choice for the sport, but it was probably the right one for her.

    Good choice...

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  • riding too slowly

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #44 on: September 01, 2015, 18:05 »
    Happy to see how a counter theory for Vos turns out.   Glad we are all agreed that the "hamstring"  excuse is well past its "no longer effective" date.  Vos has now had, for several months, a broken rib stopping her returning.  I broke a rib last year on an MTB ride when I fell on a protruding rock.  Hell of a thump.  I sort of continued to do things over the next few days when I lifted a wheel out of the back of the car and tried to fit it. The rib popped.  Agony, I lay on the floor for the best part of 30 minutes.  Shear agony for about 24 hours.  About 1 week later I was riding back in and out of work and about 6 weeks later I had forgotten all about it.  This is keeping Vos out for months now. 

    For d'Hoore - The excuse was she had a solid month's training blocked for this time.  That looks like a race to me, a bit like Plouay, only nearer and flatter.  But let's see how the cards are lying in a few week's time.  Smoking the Worlds will make it seem like the best plan ever. 
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  • just some guy

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    riding too slowly

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #46 on: September 07, 2015, 21:21 »
    Clara Hughes' silent ban around the time of those for Longo.  Someone in the Canadian Fed got wind of what they were doing for Longo.  What a mess.  Longo to big to fail, just like Vos right now. 


    Hughes winner of medals in speed skating and cycling at the Olympics - two very dodgy sports, both riddled with PED abuse.

    Love her excuse.  You just have to hand it to the dopers they pull them out of the hat.
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  • « Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 21:39 by riding too slowly »

    just some guy

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #48 on: September 20, 2015, 11:04 »


    http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/09/news/mtber-blaza-klemencic-positive-for-epo_385295

    from 2012 retro-active test result

    I think the most interesting thing about this story - and not just because I'm a roadie and have never heard of Ms Klemencic - is that it comes from the same date as that of Caruso.

    I wonder if these two positives were part of the same bundle of samples done in a lab on a certain date, which in turn would suggest something like a systematic approach to retesting rather than everything being entirely random.
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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #49 on: September 20, 2015, 11:52 »
    I think the most interesting thing about this story - and not just because I'm a roadie and have never heard of Ms Klemencic - is that it comes from the same date as that of Caruso.

    I wonder if these two positives were part of the same bundle of samples done in a lab on a certain date, which in turn would suggest something like a systematic approach to retesting rather than everything being entirely random.

    that was my thoughts and why I posted a MTB positive in here
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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #50 on: September 26, 2015, 23:21 »
    From the Wiggle Honda website - entry dated 23 August:

    The Belgian Champion now has a total of 391 points with one race to go, six points ahead of Anna van der Breggen (Rabo-Liv). Longo Borghini sits in fourth place, on 320 points, ahead of next week’s GP Plouay-Bretagne.

    “The plan was not to do Plouay, I just want to have a proper training next week for the World Championships,” said D’hoore. “But [Directeur Sportif Egon van Kessel] said to me ‘you’ve got three days to think about it,’ so it’s not 100% sure yet. But there’s a big chance I’m not doing Plouay.

    “I think we have a big chance with Elisa next week and, if she wins Plouay, she can take the leader’s jersey. It’s not up to me.”


    So, maybe planned well in advance and fits with the plan.

    As RTS implies, Rochelle Gilmore is very committed - and with that commitment comes a really calculated and controlled side to her character. (I say that from having met her a few times.) So, you can bet that she'll have worked out the potential benefits from winning the World Cup vs the World Champs down to the last decimal place ...

    ... and when you consider that one of the benefits of winning the World Champs is to carry the rainbow jersey all year, I will lay you an odds on bet as to which way she'd be pushing D'hoore.

    49th and never looking in contention on that course, apart from early on being first onto the first cobbled section - which really was not an action by a potential race winner.  If that was a calculation down to the last decimal place then I am a Belgian.   

    Nope - my bull**it detector remains in the red over that pull-out before the last round of the World Cup, every bit as much as it does over why Vos is not riding. 

    And today, I have no idea what I watched.  It is hard to place order and tribute motive to action and counter action in that race.  It is hard to work out what was error and what was stupidity and what else might have been going on.  FPF cannot even get past Johansen when glued to her wheel for 900m and yet last year she was able to pick up lead out deluxe from Vos all the way to the win.  As Armitstead stated in her cyclingnews podcast, some riders in the top 10 women in the World are not on any whereabout system and so no subject to any out of competition testing. 

    I am back  with my conspiracy theory and Clara Hughes having a silent ban around the time Longo's repeated silent bans were running, reinforces them as about the best thing I can think of to explain the nutty goings on.  Other Feds have got wind of what "arrangments were given to Vos up to this year, "you can race but can't win"  and are dishing out the same.

    As I said, I am not comfortable with it at all, but enough is just not adding up whatever way you try the sum and getting dope is cheap and the tests are easily defeated.  To state that the temptation for the women is too small, is just wishful thinking. 
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  • AG

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    Re: Women's cycling - Darkside
    « Reply #51 on: September 27, 2015, 02:00 »
    seriously - WTF is a 'silent ban' anyway.   what complete bullsh*t !!!!!

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  • riding too slowly

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    Re: Women's cycling - Darkside
    « Reply #52 on: September 27, 2015, 09:48 »
    Longo won 13 World titles and 59 French ones.  She was never banned, official records never had her testing positive.  On her record is that she had multiple whereabouts failures and her husband, Ciprelli,  bought a sack load of EPO from Joe Papp.  Ciprelli denied it until Papp revealed the payment and postage records and then Ciprelli changed his tune and  apparently he bought it all for his own use.  So we can all make up our own minds there. 

    Contemporary riders first hand accounts are that she was frequently seen at races with sticking plasters over likely injection  sites on her arms; so often that it got to be the in joke.  I have no idea if you have spoken to riders from that time, but again, it is a free World; either Longo had a bunch of nasty insect bites, repeatedly, or these other riders are lying or she was injecting.  Take your pick.

    Then Longo had a random few seasons, starting in the early 90's and last one in 1999, where she was not racing or only raced some very strange local or low key events.  The story read in the newspapers of the time was that she and Ciprelli were trying for a baby.  However, never one to let a promotional opportunity go by, Longo kept herself "fit" ready for her return to competition by riding each stage of the Women's Tour de Fraance, not the day ahead like Lance did this year for a couple of days, but the whole race on the day of the race !  The waiting crowds would always be cheering "bravo Jeannie" and she would wave at them.  Some weird way to have time off trying for a baby in my book. 


    Again, the records are on your side - silent bans do not exist - there is nothing to say she was on a ban.  However, again, the word on the street was she was banned from high level competition for 6 months for doping infringements.  However, because she was too high profile in France and because, during her early career the coaching staff of the French Federation had attempted to bully her and she had exposed their pettiness and misogyny in the press and  rubbished them, repeatedly, the French Federation did not go for making the ban public. 

    Don't go thinking all positives are made public.  Cookson revealed exactly what he thinks of sharing things with the public over the Menchov sanction.  Menchov  encountered a serious challenge to his excuses and the adverse finding was upheld and he was banned.  THEN, at the end of the process Cookson and his pals at the UCI added Menchov's name to their update of the PDF.  Remember the official UCI silence when the rumours were going around ?  The UCI had plenty of opportunity to share with a factual account of where in the whole process the Menchov situation was.  The public do not need to know, can be the only conclusion to that factual account.

    Flip that situation over. If Menchov has a frieidly Federation and a UCI keen to keep it quiet and not challenge a home Federation dismissal of the adverse finding to CAS for appeal.  Well in that case there is nothing to report in the PDF and certainly nothing to share with the press, is there ?  Why share it with the keyboard warriors ?

    As I said earlier - the Julien d'Hoore story of not defending her substantial   lead because she does not want to travel to a race in France (OK Brittany - a long drive away) but wants to  put in a months training to prepare for the Worlds at which she stands a very good chance - stacks up if she stands a very good chance.  But there are two holes in that story.  The training starts off with a stage race - far more uncontrolled than specific training  - and, way more relevant, it was not a course on which she was competitive.  She did not stand a good chance.

    The kindest thing that can be said about it is she and her coach - with long term connections to teams  with repeated doping violations and and staff with connections to riders with such, made a complete misjudgement of the type of course they were preparing for in that four week block. Again, it is a free World.  I'll leave you with your god.

    For myself, I think the current men's peloton is no cleaner than it was in 2006, the only difference is that there are new drugs and new ways to beat the tests.  In the women's peloton where the testing is way less stringent, I believe it would be naive to think there are not some who practice what their male counterparts are doing.   

    Given the lack of quality of officialdom, particularly on the women's side, it is comprehensible that the same mess that the French Federation made for themselves over Longo, two decades ago could now be replicated. 
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Women's cycling
    « Reply #53 on: September 27, 2015, 15:14 »
    FPF cannot even get past Johansen when glued to her wheel for 900m and yet last year she was able to pick up lead out deluxe from Vos all the way to the win.

    Ferrand-Prévot crashed quite heavily earlier in the race. She said this:

    "I reckon I finished with a result that reflects how I felt today. I've been a bit sick in the last few days and I knew it would be hard.

    At 300m to go, I thought I'd better start sprinting but it still seemed a bit far out. In the end I waited and a small wave of riders surrounded me. I couldn't get going again. It was a small tactical error on my part."

    http://www.directvelo.com/actualite/46521-mondial-dames-une-place-qui-reflete-ma-forme-du-jour.html (FR)
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  • AG

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    Re: Women's cycling - Darkside
    « Reply #54 on: September 28, 2015, 02:08 »
    yeah I wasnt doubting that 'silent bans' happen .... just wondering WTF the point is?    seriously  :fp

    as foryour premise that the peleton is no cleaner than 2006 - unfortunately I have to agree with you.  :(
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  • just some guy

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    riding too slowly

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    Re: Women's cycling - Darkside
    « Reply #56 on: October 03, 2015, 11:13 »
    Tell me............ how can you have an interview between the top English speaking reporter of women's cycling and the sport's number one star who has missed a whole season of racing and the nature and prognosis of the health issues of why the rider is not racing are not discussed, apart from in the most bland and insincere way?

    http://prowomenscycling.com/2015/09/25/sarah-interviews-marianne-vos-on-richmond-2015/

    I could not believe that so long an interview could ignore the elephant in the room for so long,  so I copied and pasted it into word - the article is  2,500 words !   Now don't come back to be with "women's  problems", even some of the most unreliable female co-workers, I have the misfortune to be with, know they have to be more inventive in their excuses.

    Somebody tell me what is the tale after "I broke a rib" that Vos is using not to be riding right now?

    As to AG and WTF the point of a silent ban is - I don't think there is any point, I think once there, everyone, apart from the athlete  knows it is a rubbish position to be in and wish they had never started off down that route that brought them to this position, in the first place.  What was that route - getting adverse findings and accounts of the implication of Federation officials and deciding to ignore the obvious, suspend reality and believe the excuses and give rider and officials a pass.  Then, more adverse findings down the line, because the rider and officials learnt only one lesson from what went on before - "we can get away with it",   the penny is forced through the slot and drops and then those who should apply the sanctions are compromised by their earlier lack of action and stupidity.  So they go for trying to brush the whole lot under the carpet.  An everyday human tale of a young girl smiling at an old man - "what me ? "


    After it had become public that former World Road Race Champion Zinadia Starhuskia had tested positive a few times, the blond athlete with the stunning looks decided it was not enough to smile and wave the flowers on the winner's podium, she needed another angle to dispel those who murmured.  Her young child was oh-so-cute and so she would make sure the toddler joined "mum" each time on the dias.  "How could a mother dope to win and then embroil her innocent son in her winning  - surely her tales of "it was in the toothpaste/the dog spiked my food etc. etc." must be true" ?

    It worked.  She carried on riding, winning and going to world championships and Olympic games.  Most of the officials are men and men that happen to be anything other than sufficiently dull so that they only think with that part of their body that hangs between their legs when it comes to young girls.

    So Zinadia continued on, that was until her Italian home was busted by a police raid and they found a garage load of PEDs and records of who she had supplied with PEDs.

    Silent bans are the witness that the Federation have been compromised and some Federation scalps are on the line if they go public.  And so ..............the only winner is .............the athlete who can tough it out saying ................."not me guv - I never tested positive".
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  • riding too slowly

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    Re: Women's cycling - Darkside
    « Reply #57 on: October 18, 2015, 16:30 »
    Chrono Des Nations - Glad to see that erstwhile prime female doper Hanna Solovey, repeatedly thrown under the bus (kicked out from the female Team Astana  for "unprofessional conduct" (!! what does that mean given the context - the mind boggles)) has recovered from some weird stuff at the World Champs (de-selected at the last minute ?)and managed to get 2nd today.  Only beaten by Russian Tatiana Antonshina. 

    I really am concerned that the strange stuff going on and the factual lack of blood passport and lack of out of competition testing for so many of the top riders means it is getting to be like the wild west on the women's scene - either (i) leave, (ii) don't compete to win  or (iii)  dope.

    Does anyone know if they do testing of the women or espoirs at the Chrono ? (or even the Junior men or women for that matter ?)
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Women's cycling - Darkside
    « Reply #58 on: November 10, 2015, 16:18 »
    Seems with the WWT starting so will the ABP for women
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