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Archieboy

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Nice one.

Great win sir
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  • Mellow Velo

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     So, the pool games are completed with the biggest surprise for me, being three time winners, Japan.
    Had they not been expected to turn around in just 4 days, after the hardest game they had collectively played, who knows?
    They certainly faded badly in that second half against Scotland.

     Others will probably cite the non-qualification of England, but given that only 6 months earlier, Wales had been odds on favourites to win in Cardiff and this being the aptly named "group of death"....

     In the end, we get what many would have predicted as the quarter finals, from which I'd say Ireland and Wales, in that order, offer the Northern Hemisphere's only chance for progression.
     Yet, in saying that, I'd also tip Argentina as the dark horse team. No longer are they just a one dimensional, forward force.
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    cj2002

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    So, the pool games are completed with the biggest surprise for me, being three time winners, Japan.
    Had they not been expected to turn around in just 4 days, after the hardest game they had collectively played, who knows?

    One would hope (but certainly not expect) that the performances of Japan and Georgia - both securing automatic qualification for RWC2019[1] - would trigger a rethink of the competitive structure, and push the so-called "Tier 1" nations into engaging with them to further aid their development.

    Argentina are a case in point... they were included in the Tri-Nations (now, of course, the "Rugby Championship") against, arguably, the three top sides in the world, and they have progressed into a top side, who shouldn't be written off against anybody. Georgia and Japan, and perhaps Fiji and Samoa, have the same potential to develop if they are given the opportunities. Whether the old boys' club of the IRB will do anything about this remains to be seen.

    I was dreading coming back here (here being both VR and the UK in general) and having to face those who, like MV, are not of a red rose persuasion after England's performance. In the 4 years under Stuart Lancaster, England have progressed from an inconsistent but potentially brilliant side to one that is consistently not quite good enough. Four consecutive 2nd-place finishes in the Six Nations would make Peter Sagan laugh in pity; and it's not as if one other side has been dominant... both Wales and Ireland have beaten us to the title in that time.

    Our win over Fiji was rusty - a side getting used to the pressures of being a host nation. Against Wales we were not good enough. Against Australia we barely turned up[2]. Even the first half against Uruguay seemed laboured. We have some very good players, and there is competition for almost every position. But we don't have enough spark. We don't have enough real game changers. There are very few players, I would argue, who would worry top-quality opposition by their inclusion in the squad.

    It will be interesting to see what the even-older boys' club of the RFU do next. Lancaster deserves a position within the coaching set up - he is too talented to lose completely. But I think we need someone a bit more special to take this group of players - and the exciting crop of younger guys coming through the ranks - and allow them to fulfill their potential in Japan in four years' time.
     1. Although Japan did already have a place assured as hosts, they also earned one on merit
     2. I was in Greece, 2 hours ahead of UK time... I survived to half time, which was about midnight, and gave up and went to bed...
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    Mellow Velo

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    Interesting that you mention a rethink on the competitive structure.
    I was discussing that topic this morning.
    Aside the obvious need to address the issue of match turnover time, the one suggestion I would put forward would be to introduce a plate competition for the sides finishing 3rd and 4th in their respective groups. It could be played off using the same format as the main competition and served up as an aperitif, perhaps for the QFs by using the preceding Friday for two matches and having one game before the pair of quarter finals.


    As for seeding and selecting groups, three years before the event. The loss of revenue to the IRB, through England's early exit, should ensure changes will be made for the next WC.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    ...

    I was dreading coming back here (here being both VR and the UK in general) and having to face those who, like MV, are not of a red rose persuasion after England's performance. In the 4 years under Stuart Lancaster, England have progressed from an inconsistent but potentially brilliant side to one that is consistently not quite good enough. Four consecutive 2nd-place finishes in the Six Nations would make Peter Sagan laugh in pity; and it's not as if one other side has been dominant... both Wales and Ireland have beaten us to the title in that time.

    Our win over Fiji was rusty - a side getting used to the pressures of being a host nation. Against Wales we were not good enough. Against Australia we barely turned up[1]. Even the first half against Uruguay seemed laboured. We have some very good players, and there is competition for almost every position. But we don't have enough spark. We don't have enough real game changers. There are very few players, I would argue, who would worry top-quality opposition by their inclusion in the squad.

    It will be interesting to see what the even-older boys' club of the RFU do next. Lancaster deserves a position within the coaching set up - he is too talented to lose completely. But I think we need someone a bit more special to take this group of players - and the exciting crop of younger guys coming through the ranks - and allow them to fulfill their potential in Japan in four years' time.
     1. I was in Greece, 2 hours ahead of UK time... I survived to half time, which was about midnight, and gave up and went to bed...
    I think you should watch the second half of AUS vs ENG, the hacks in the media are earning their corn by calling it a malling but with 70 minutes gone, England had closed to within 7 pts and were in the ascendancy. Then Farrell got his marching orders and England fell apart.

    But the key result was the Wales game, which England had been bossing up to the hour mark and then threw away compounded with the decision to go for the line out rather than the match tying kick.

    As for Lancaster, I have mostly sympathy with a bit of criticism at some of his less key decisions. It's not his fault that Tuilagi, Hartley, Abendon and the Armitage bros absented themselves for various reasons. Either you want to play for England enough or you don't, these guys who would have made a massive difference to Engand's chances, didn't.

    I thought taking Burgess was the correct decision, he might have been great (and certainly out performed Barritt) and Burrell had proved he wasn't great on plenty of occassions.

    But there were ripple effects all through the team, Tom Youngs' inclusion meant that Parling had to play because of his line out ability which meant that England were weakened in the scrum and breakdown. Barritt didn't look fit and neither did Mike Brown in the AUS game. Joseph's injury was key, as was the problems England had getting a fit No8 onto the field.

    The things I'd say Lancaster got wrong were a) his replacements - having three potential fly halves and three potential full backs in the match day 23 makes no sense when you only have two potential centres and two potential wings. Also the replacements seemed to destabilise England against Wales and Australia, maybe he could have left key players on longer; Delallio played every minute of 2003.
    b) On the field decision making  - Robshaw isn't a tactical genius, there needs to be someone in the team who he can turn to, even if that person isn't a born leader, someone who can say, "Don't be stupid, take the three points and live to fight another day." In 2003, England had leaders all over the park, some of that simply comes with accruing International experience; England didn't have nearly enough of it and needed to have an alternative way of making better decisions on the park.

    Ultimately, Lancaster had a pretty weak hand, didn't play it perfectly but it wasn't a winning hand so better to let him use this experience to make him a better coach next time round.

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  • Slapshot

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     #scotland #scotland #scotland #scotland #scotland #scotland shame about  *england ......... not  *scotland *scotland
     
    We're through.... how did that happen and I don't buy the Japan faded bit, every game is played for 80 minutes every team is prepped to play for that 80 minutes, if the situation were reversed, Scotland wouldn't get a sniff of using the "FADED" excuse from the media, pundits or any other nation's rugby fans.

    I do feel sorry for Japan but that's the way tournaments like this go.

    Scotland have been a big surprise to me and a very pleasant one, I think we have a good future with this group of players. Wales have been good and I'm sure Ireland got better last night after they lost O'Connell, O'Mahoney and Sexton, England didn't deserve to go through.... they have been poor.... or maybe they just faded too!!

    Do you change the format,?? Yes I think so, plate comp would be great but sort these seedings out but I think these groups have given us a fantastic tournament so far, the fact that none of the scores have been the astronomic scorelines of the past is brilliant, there's been some standout games, Ireland France last night was fantastic.

    Anyway.... we now have next weekend to look forward to....... well some of us...  #scotland #scotland #scotland
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  • cj2002

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    All good points, Capt. Particularly this:

    b) On the field decision making  - Robshaw isn't a tactical genius, there needs to be someone in the team who he can turn to, even if that person isn't a born leader, someone who can say, "Don't be stupid, take the three points and live to fight another day." In 2003, England had leaders all over the park, some of that simply comes with accruing International experience; England didn't have nearly enough of it and needed to have an alternative way of making better decisions on the park.

    As it happens, I don't think Robshaw was necessarily wrong to push for the match-winning try rather than the match-drawing kick. It was going to be an absurdly difficult kick, even for the best players. Wales quite rightly didn't contest in the air and so were ready with their defence as soon as the catcher was on the floor. Should Robshaw have seen that coming... maybe. If Ford or Farrell had said "let me kick at goal" - with the sort of confidence that Wilkinson would have shown in a similar situation - would he have let them?

    With the right management, England 2019 will be a force to be reckoned with... another 4 years experience and, hopefully, a consistent selection for the key positions to allow them time to learn each others' games. England need to learn to finish the job.

    As for seeding and selecting groups, three years before the event. The loss of revenue to the IRB, through England's early exit, should ensure changes will be made for the next WC.

    This is true, of course. I was left wondering what would have happened if one of the 6 Nations or Rugby Championship sides hadn't guaranteed themselves a spot by finishing in the top 3. There is no space in the current (totally unfair) qualification system for England to qualify for 2019, other than by their performance in 2015. Put Japan in a group with Italy and the azzurri, too, would be in difficulty.

    I came up with a brilliant plan to reform European rugby, incidentally, but I'll save it for another day.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    As it happens, I don't think Robshaw was necessarily wrong to push for the match-winning try rather than the match-drawing kick. It was going to be an absurdly difficult kick, even for the best players. Wales quite rightly didn't contest in the air and so were ready with their defence as soon as the catcher was on the floor. Should Robshaw have seen that coming... maybe. If Ford or Farrell had said "let me kick at goal" - with the sort of confidence that Wilkinson would have shown in a similar situation - would he have let them?

    We'll have to agree to differ. I was holding my head in my hands, howling "Nooooooooooooooooo", the moment I saw Ford with the ball in hand; it's not just a case of hindsight. England had achieved nothing of note with any line out up to that point; and both Farrell and Biggar hadn't looked like missing any kicks, some of which were as difficult if not more so, albeit under less pressure. That's why they're in the team.

    I love brilliant plans. Can't wait to hear yours.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    We'll have to agree to differ. I was holding my head in my hands, howling "Nooooooooooooooooo", the moment I saw Ford with the ball in hand; it's not just a case of hindsight. England had achieved nothing of note with any line out up to that point; and both Farrell and Biggar hadn't looked like missing any kicks, some of which were as difficult if not more so, albeit under less pressure. That's why they're in the team.

    I love brilliant plans. Can't wait to hear yours.

     It wasn't necessarily the wrong plan, just the wrong throw.
    Front of the line out? I mean if you gamble, gamble, don't go for the safest (and by far the easiest to defend) option.
    As for not looking like missing a kick; Biggar hadn't, right up until he missed a relatively easy, third shot against Oz.
    Had that happened to Farrell, I pretty sure hindsight would have fed folks opinions in favour of taking the line out.

     I think it's a bit unfair to distill issues such as captaincy down to a single issue.
    Maybe the simpler question is better: Is Robshaw good enough? Judging from the back row play we have witnessed other top nations, the answer would be a straight forward no.



    Post Merge: October 12, 2015, 16:27
    #scotland #scotland #scotland #scotland #scotland #scotland shame about  *england ......... not  *scotland *scotland
     
    We're through.... how did that happen and I don't buy the Japan faded bit, every game is played for 80 minutes every team is prepped to play for that 80 minutes, if the situation were reversed, Scotland wouldn't get a sniff of using the "FADED" excuse from the media, pundits or any other nation's rugby fans.


    So, you don't see a 4 day turn around for players that have turn in the biggest performance of their lives as an issue effecting their performance against a second straight, top team?

    I certainly do. I'm pretty certain that Wales faded quite noticeably against Fiji in their second half.

    I'm not saying that given a few more days for recovery, Japan would have beaten Scotland, just that they would have been more competitive over the eighty minutes and folded completely, like they did.
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  • Slapshot

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    It wasn't necessarily the wrong plan, just the wrong throw.
    Front of the line out? I mean if you gamble, gamble, don't go for the safest (and by far the easiest to defend) option.
    As for not looking like missing a kick; Biggar hadn't, right up until he missed a relatively easy, third shot against Oz.
    Had that happened to Farrell, I pretty sure hindsight would have fed folks opinions in favour of taking the line out.

     I think it's a bit unfair to distill issues such as captaincy down to a single issue.
    Maybe the simpler question is better: Is Robshaw good enough? Judging from the back row play we have witnessed other top nations, the answer would be a straight forward no.

    It wasn't really a single decision, much as it pains me to say it, Jonny Wilkinson summed it up in his"long chains comment", that decision was formed on a training pitch in team meetings and discussions over the last two years not in that split second. I don't think Robshaw is a captain with a full grasp on strategy but there's no-one else on that team you'd want to lead you.

    Quote

    Post Merge: October 12, 2015, 16:27
    So, you don't see a 4 day turn around for players that have turn in the biggest performance of their lives as an issue effecting their performance against a second straight, top team?

    I certainly do. I'm pretty certain that Wales faded quite noticeably against Fiji in their second half.

    I'm not saying that given a few more days for recovery, Japan would have beaten Scotland, just that they would have been more competitive over the eighty minutes and folded completely, like they did.

    When have any of the media except the Scottish jesters labelled Scotland as a top team on the way into this tournament?? I'd love to read that, 10th seed doesn't sound like a top team to me.


    I don't see that it's as big an issue as everyone is making out it is. Yes they were tired but I don't see it as the sole issue like the media is portraying, "Scotland won because Japan were knackered".... going a bit too far. What would have happened if the US had beaten Scotland?? Can't see the media letting Scotland away with the "we were tired" routine can you?? I feel sorry for Japan they created the result of the tournament but that's part of the game, it happens, we move on.

    The Tournament is what it is, the wee fish get the short end of the deal in terms of turnaround whereas certain teams never have less than a 7 day turnaround, not that it did them any good. unles all the teams get some kind of parity then something like this can always happen
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  • Slapshot

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    Gutted for  *wales yesterday, they have been brilliant throughout this tournament, thought they had done enough but I guess you can never stop the southern hemisphere nations. looks like France have a lot of soul searching to do, see if they can find the ability and flair we've come to love in French Rugby, worryingly the All Blacks seem to be able to step up another gear at every stage.

    Two more today, hopefully Ireland will keep European Rugby in the tournament but I don't hold out much hope for Scotland though of course I hope the boys give the Aussies a good going over... this tournament just gets better
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  • Archieboy

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    Really enjoying this Irish fight back.
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  • Slapshot

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    Didn't see that happening.... WOW!!
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  • Slapshot

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     :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e #scotland

    Alba gu Brath
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Didn't see that happening.... WOW!!

    I did.
    Argentina are the closest to another NZ team in the competition. Now they have scintillating backs to compliment the usual strong pack.


    :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e :-e #scotland

    Alba gu Brath

     That was truly cruel. Was that the same Aussie team that took the park last week?
    Made to look ordinary, by a NH side that took the game to them and weren't just hell bent shutting down the opposition. In doing so, they exposed more leaks than a sieve in their defence.

     Ultimately undone by two very dodgy decisions from Joubert.
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  • Joelsim

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    Shame for the Jocks. Although they have got the football to look forward to.

    The World Cup qualifiers start in a year's time.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    I was fortunate to go to see the Scotland Australia game, my voice is still hoarse from shouting even now.

    Bizarrely, I didn't want to see the game at all and had already passed up an opportunity for tickets; who's going to pay a small fortune to see a one-sided slaughter? But the good Lady Cavman texted mid-week to ask whether I was up for Ireland Argentina and I said yes and she sorted out all the arrangements, who was coming with us to the match, where we were staying etc. It was only as we were nearing the ground that it struck us that there were a surprising number of fans wearing canary yellow driza-bones.

    In the ground I'd estimate the crowd make up was 20% Oz, 30% Scot and 50% neutral wondering why they'd paid so much to see this one. As the match went on, every single neutral got behind the Scots and got behind them in a ferocious way that I've not seen the Twickenham crowd ever do for England. We even droned, 'Scoooooooootlund' in a Scottish accent.

    I have to disagree with MV that the Australians looked ordinary, to me they looked at least 2 classes better than the Scots, the speed with which they recycled and distributed was breathtaking. How Laidlaw got MoM when Genia was light years ahead of him in all facets of the game is a bit of a mystery. However the great thing about sport is that sometimes the weaker team wins, and thanks to the Australians botching two certain tries, missing a load of kicks and gifting the Scots two interception tries, the Scots should have won. That they didn't, is partly due to Mr Joubert but mostly due to the Scots' own inability to see out the last three minutes in a clinical, professional manner.

    But anyway, without a doubt the best sporting occasion I've ever accidentally been to.
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  • cj2002

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    But anyway, without a doubt the best sporting occasion I've ever accidentally been to.

    Line of the year..!
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  • DJW

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    Interesting to see that World Rugby have more or less thrown Joubert under the bus. I'm not sure extending the role of the TMO is necessarily a good thing but surely situations which decide the match are as worthy of a replay as any try.
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  • Slapshot

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    Cracking end to a damn good festival of rugby. All Blacks have shown they really are the best and certainly in my lifetime the best there's been.

    In Richie McCaw I think we see the best rugby player we've ever seen and at ten I can't remember anyone better or more consistent that Dan Carter, (though my missus still thinks it Johnny - she really doesn't understand the game  :lol :lol )

    I can't wait till 2019 now, the other teams that are fast improving, it's going to be a fantastic tournament
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  • Archieboy

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    Re: Rugby...for those who like odd shaped balls
    « Reply #230 on: November 18, 2015, 07:25 »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34853536

    Truly sad news, the man was a true sporting legend, and so young.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Rugby...for those who like odd shaped balls
    « Reply #231 on: November 18, 2015, 08:19 »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34853536

    Truly sad news, the man was a true sporting legend, and so young.

    Just heard the news on tv.
    Shocked, given he was caught on camera, several times during the World Cup.
    The player who probably had more influence on how the game has evolved than any other.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Rugby...for those who like odd shaped balls
    « Reply #232 on: November 18, 2015, 10:44 »
    The player who probably had more influence on how the game has evolved than any other.
    That's one way to put it. :shh

    Rest in peace, Jonah.
    The first rugby player I knew by name - even wrote a story involving him in high school.
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    Slapshot

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    Re: Rugby...for those who like odd shaped balls
    « Reply #233 on: November 18, 2015, 11:00 »
    Jonah was the man who changed back play for ever, they were no longer small skinny fast guys, jonah was the first big bulky guy that could run like a train and knock you over like a bulldozer... sad sad day for Rugby fans
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  • « Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 16:07 by Slapshot »

    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Rugby...for those who like odd shaped balls
    « Reply #234 on: November 18, 2015, 11:14 »
    Just heard the news on tv.
    Shocked, given he was caught on camera, several times during the World Cup.
    The player who probably had more influence on how the game has evolved than any other.
    100%.


    http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/tearful-joost-pays-tribute-to-jonah-lomu-20151118

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  • Joelsim

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    Re: Rugby...for those who like odd shaped balls
    « Reply #235 on: November 18, 2015, 11:19 »
    S Bradley Wi....is in there too!

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  • Ram

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    Super rugby is now fliped.

    Got to feel a bit for Wasps... Two losses in the ECC after 80 minutes
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Super rugby is now fliped.

    Got to feel a bit for Wasps... Two losses in the ECC after 80 minutes

    No need.
    Looks as if they'll still top their group.
    With 20 minutes left they have bagged a bonus point while Toulon continue to play like a rudderless juggernaut.
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  • Ram

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    Brilliant second half. Wonder what Boudjellal will threaten to withdraw from now...

    Snigger @ Farrell's missed try. Seemed to lose control in one of the earlier phases just to get it under control right in time.
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  • DJW

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    Thought this was worth posting to see if there were any Welsh rugby fans left on the Internet....

    In all honesty, this was the worst grand slam performance probably ever. Convincing against no-one, even when 19 points up.

    Ireland, Scotland, Wales and France had very little to lose after decent or as expected World Cup performances.

    England had it all to prove, for me they proved very little. But I am 100% behind them for next year.
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