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DB-Coop

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Re: Darkside - General news
« Reply #1020 on: June 27, 2014, 21:54 »
On his doping positive said Riis knew about it because he knew everything he did, but afterwards Riis always had a lawyer whenever they met, and told the team not to talk with him.  Clearly bad blood between him and Bjarne.

Some of it relates to their wives as well, they were very close friends, but after Bo tested positive Bjarne's wife made it clear that they could not be friends anymore, Bo's wife was very hurt is the story I've heard.
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  • M Gee

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1021 on: June 28, 2014, 04:07 »
    . . .Stefano Agostini has decided to put an end to his career . . .

    Dejo professional cycling with dignity, never knowing that I cheated and I conquered all my results with dedication and sacrifice, aware that this absurd story has also caused considerable damage to my image.

    Finally, I think this story has ruined my career and destroyed my dreams, also undermine the credibility, usefulness and the infallibility of its doping control system.

    Sincerely,
    Stefano Agostini

    snipped for brevity. What happens if they guy is honest and telling the truth?
    Quote
    No one values innocence so much as the innocent.
    That quote may be inaccurate. It may be only a television dialogue line - but it is so true, regardless.
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  • . . .He had the bit between his teeth, and he loiked the taste, mate . . .

    just some guy

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    Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    M Gee

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1023 on: June 28, 2014, 16:33 »
    Darach McQuaid and Paul Kimmage RTE radio interview

    Interesting interview. Thx.

    yep, and there already is ;)

    http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=5881.0

    more doing this for myself so I can find them easy  :D

    Bo hamburger talked with Michael Creed

    http://www.cyclismas.com/biscuits/open-mic-with-mike-creed-bo-hamburger/

    http://www.cyclismas.com/biscuits/open-mic-with-mike-creed-bo-hamburger-part-2/

    the few Creed podcasts I have listened too I liked and Bo is an interesting case in Doping for mind

    Wow, can you say whiskey-powered? But GREAT discussion. The whole thing - management difficulties. Knowing more now than as stupid young guy - lovely quote material in there about "how many people I have to apologize to". What it was like as a rider.

    I know the guilty always say - but "everybody" does it! But, in this case, we now think Bo is reflecting reality more than dissembling. Interesting view on how it started coming apart - when young journos - ignorant of the subculture mores - came into the mix.

    How would Bo Hamburger know that for certain? time of that revelation in the interview?

    I didn't catch everything that was said - but I did not notice anything being said as specifically as this. So I am also wondering at what minute in the broadcast can this be found? I noticed it was INFERRED - everybody involved, riders, mgmt, docs, and journos, was said to know what was going on.

    But, you know, between the Bo Hamburger interview and the Inga Thompson interview, we really get a picture of what it was like - what was going on. I think they validate each other. Good stuff, very good stuff.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1024 on: June 28, 2014, 16:37 »
    But, you know, between the Bo Hamburger interview and the Inga Thompson interview, we really get a picture of what it was like - what was going on. I think they validate each other. Good stuff, very good stuff.

    Agree, it is just there is a difference of "knowing", knowing and being able to prove something.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1025 on: June 28, 2014, 16:59 »
    Agree, it is just there is a difference of "knowing", knowing and being able to prove something.

    Absolutely true. And we "know" that not everyone was in the loop - because we can believe Lemond's testimony that HE was not "in the loop" at the time. He has always maintained he found out some years later. Thompson's interview validates Bo's, in that she indicates a high level of involvement throughout the organizing structure. Thompson's discussion also validates Lemond's historical statements, with her natural hematocrit being high. He would have been in the same boat. 

    And Bo saying that everybody was given the "story", and they all stuck to it - fits with pretty much everybody being "in on it". So much so that when young journos, who were not familiar with the omerta morality, came around, the riders talked to them AS IF they were in the know. Which is also something one would expect.

    It is all individuals just telling stories, so maybe we don't really know anything. But, it all fits with the known facts. It all fits with earlier testimonies, like those primarily against LA. So it is nothing new - but it validates the darker outlooks about those twenty plus years. And, even though we only have Bo saying "everybody knew" - and we know that is only one person's viewpoint - his viewpoint is validated by others.

    What these interviews, Inga and Bo's, offer is not earth-shattering - but - at least imo - we are now getting a much more complete and honest picture. And since we have had the outlines of the picture already laid out, these guys are coloring in the middle. But because they are corroborating, we can have some faith when they say "everybody knew". 

    Of course, at this point there is no "proof" - no smoking needle left. Except, at some point, at some level, testimony becomes proof, yes?
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1026 on: June 28, 2014, 17:13 »
    Of course, at this point there is no "proof" - no smoking needle left. Except, at some point, at some level, testimony becomes proof, yes?

    Yes, but not testimonies about people "knowing" that will never be proof, but it doesn't matter, did Riis let his riders dope on Home-Jack and Jones and Team CSC of cause he did. He must have known. But unless it is enough to suspend him for it adds very little as we all knew that about Bjarne already.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1027 on: July 03, 2014, 12:13 »
    The wheels are slowly coming off the #cwk bandwagon ...

    First there's a very public mud-fight in the comment section of Feltet.dk where the father of Alexander Kamp accuses the team of not releasing his son from the contract, with Hembo replying that there is no paperwork filed with DCU for this; arguing on technicalities as he is fond to do.

    Then Danish boulevard newspaper BT has found out that Mattia Gavazzi has apparently sniffed cocaine. And Hembo doesn't deny this as much as he would if it weren't true: http://www.bt.dk/cykling/kyllingens-hold-ramt-af-dopingsag

    What's more, that article mentions, almost in passing, that Tino Zaballa has been voluntarily suspended since mid-May due to an OOC AAF (out-of-competition adverse analytical finding) - in plain words, a positive test. Allegedly for a substance he has a TUE for.

    :fp
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1028 on: July 03, 2014, 12:54 »
    Sad Jonny Bellis is caught up in this mess
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1029 on: July 03, 2014, 13:22 »
    The wheels are slowly coming off the #cwk bandwagon ...

    Not too sure if it is of the bandwagon or just the whole bus in general. Slowly? it is more like


    Sad Jonny Bellis is caught up in this mess

    Bellis was the one who got Gavazzi fired it seems he took a picture of him snorting and showed it to the Team. Why does Hembo claim that no doping violation happened when Cocaine is definitely on the banned list. Is it okay to do cocaine of of competition or something? If Zabella has that TUE why has they not let him off yet?

    Why does the team have to release Kamp? He is under contract so unless they agree to rip that contract up it can't happen.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1030 on: July 03, 2014, 13:23 »
    Not too sure if it is of the bandwagon or just the whole bus in general. Slowly? it is more like


    Bellis was the one who got Gavazzi fired it seems he took a picture of him snorting and showed it to the Team. Why does Hembo claim that no doping violation happened when Cocaine is definitely on the banned list. Is it okay to do cocaine of of competition or something? If Zabella has that TUE why has they not let him off yet?

    Why does the team have to release Kamp? He is under contract so unless they agree to rip that contract up it can't happen.

    hembo said it was after the race, so yep no doping Violation, if it was morning lines he should be busted
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1031 on: July 03, 2014, 14:02 »
    I wonder if Kamp will ever find another team, 20 is a young age of having to call quits, maybe he can sign with somebody in Asia, he seems finished in Denmark. Hard to see any team signing him.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1032 on: July 03, 2014, 14:11 »
    Not too sure if it is of the bandwagon or just the whole bus in general. Slowly? it is more like

    :lol

    Bellis was the one who got Gavazzi fired it seems he took a picture of him snorting and showed it to the Team. Why does Hembo claim that no doping violation happened when Cocaine is definitely on the banned list. Is it okay to do cocaine of of competition or something?
    Cocaine is only prohibited IN competition. If he snorted after the race, he's fine (where doping rules are concerned, he certainly has all kinds of other issues).
    Tom Boonen is another rider who has said hello to the white lines. OOC, so no ban.

    If Zabella has that TUE why has they not let him off yet?
    My own, personal interpretation is that he doesn't have it, and it's the CWK management slowly backtracking as they're unwilling to admit a positive.
    In January, Hamburger called Reda's case "completely ridiculous" the very day before Reda got a 2-year suspension. And that was not a "ridiculous case", that was an evaded doping control after winning a UCI race.
    I imagine this case is similarly "ridiculous".

    Why does the team have to release Kamp? He is under contract so unless they agree to rip that contract up it can't happen.
    They don't have to. But if Kamp can prove negligence from the team, not providing goods, money and/or services that were promised in the contract, he has a good case before the DCU committee that would evaluate the case.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1033 on: July 03, 2014, 14:35 »
    But if Kamp can prove negligence from the team, not providing goods, money and/or services that were promised in the contract, he has a good case before the DCU committee that would evaluate the case.

    So he will likely be released sometime I guess.

    I really don't know how to feel about CWO are they trying to give 2nd chances or are they just the most old school doping team out there. I tend to think the first, but every ones in a while they just seem to do some things that make me doubt it.

    I think you are right RE: Zaballa, if he has a TUE why is he waiting for his B test. Could he not just say, well here you are. Maybe he is trying to get one from the UCI? I don't like how they handled the Gavazzi case in my point of view they should have told him, that he is suspended but if he decides to go through rehab he can remain on the team, let him go public with what happened, send him to rehab. Look like hero's for helping a rider and no talks about doping because it is OOC.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1034 on: July 03, 2014, 16:43 »
    I think you are right RE: Zaballa, if he has a TUE why is he waiting for his B test. Could he not just say, well here you are. Maybe he is trying to get one from the UCI? I don't like how they handled the Gavazzi case in my point of view they should have told him, that he is suspended but if he decides to go through rehab he can remain on the team, let him go public with what happened, send him to rehab. Look like hero's for helping a rider and no talks about doping because it is OOC.
    #cwk should offer you a job. You'd actually make them look good. :D
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1035 on: July 03, 2014, 16:47 »
    #cwk should offer you a job. You'd actually make them look good. :D

    I know this is Basso all over again, why didn't he just say he was donating blood to help orphans in Spain, and that the money that he "donated" to Fuentes was meant for that too. It's not doping if you don't re-infuse.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1036 on: July 03, 2014, 18:05 »
    I wonder if Kamp will ever find another team, 20 is a young age of having to call quits, maybe he can sign with somebody in Asia, he seems finished in Denmark. Hard to see any team signing him.

    I guess that who Bo as talking about in the pod cast
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1037 on: July 03, 2014, 18:12 »
    I guess that who Bo as talking about in the pod cast

    I'll give it a listen after all I think.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1038 on: July 03, 2014, 19:26 »
    I guess that who Bo as talking about in the pod cast

    After hearing it, I can confirm that is the case.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1039 on: July 04, 2014, 01:05 »
    I know this is Basso all over again, why didn't he just say he was donating blood to help orphans in Spain, and that the money that he "donated" to Fuentes was meant for that too. It's not doping if you don't re-infuse.

    Intending to dope is also an infraction

    therefore its an offence to withdraw even if you dont re-infuse
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1040 on: July 04, 2014, 17:26 »
    Intending to dope is also an infraction

    therefore its an offence to withdraw even if you dont re-infuse

    Yes I know, however if he claim the reason why he took out the blood was not for doping, what could they do?
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1041 on: July 05, 2014, 01:56 »
    well - the standard of prrof is "comfortable satisfaction" ... they dont have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was for doping - just that it was pretty likely.

    If it was for a blood donation, surely he would have done it with a blood donor service?  If it was for research .. you withdraw different amounts, and dont store it so long, you do the research straight away etc.

    I cant come up with a reason why a rider would withdraw a full blood bag, and store it with their own doctor or by another person (not a commercial service) ... other than for personal use.


    So .. yes, in theory he could claim if was for another purpose - but he would need to come up with a plausible story, with evidence to back up said plausible story ... which isnt so easy
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1042 on: July 05, 2014, 02:24 »
    I know this is Basso all over again, why didn't he just say he was donating blood to help orphans in Spain, and that the money that he "donated" to Fuentes was meant for that too. It's not doping if you don't re-infuse.

    Just wanted to pitch a coupla thots in here.

    1. Withdrawing blood has an impact on signaling your body to make more and make other adjustments. Just sayin', cuz seems like somebody might manipulate this process.

    2. Blood is extremely perishable. You can store - what's it called? The clear stuff the cells run in? --- Google help me --- aha. Plasma. You can freeze plasma and store it for a year or two, as I recall. But the cells have a MUCH shorter lifespan when refrigerated. You have to be careful when trying to maintain blood to re-use.

    So, if the purpose is to support some cause - the blood should get used soon, right?
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1043 on: July 05, 2014, 07:20 »
    Just wanted to pitch a coupla thots in here.

    1. Withdrawing blood has an impact on signaling your body to make more and make other adjustments. Just sayin', cuz seems like somebody might manipulate this process.

    2. Blood is extremely perishable. You can store - what's it called? The clear stuff the cells run in? --- Google help me --- aha. Plasma. You can freeze plasma and store it for a year or two, as I recall. But the cells have a MUCH shorter lifespan when refrigerated. You have to be careful when trying to maintain blood to re-use.

    So, if the purpose is to support some cause - the blood should get used soon, right?

    I believe you can keep the cells much longer, at least the red blood cells, I remember that MR commented on the centrifuge and freezer that he had set up in Austria with Kohl among others that it would enable him to store blood for any time. It is just a question of freezing it strongly enough. If you actually donated they would screen it and then use it. The main point is here that they couldn't prove that Basso didn't believe that he was donating to a charity (both money and blood) Everybody would "know" either way that he intended to dope, but they couldn't have suspended him as they couldn't prove anything.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1044 on: July 05, 2014, 10:13 »
    Freezing whole blood is technically difficult, costly and time consuming.

    It needs to be frozen in very specific manners, stirred, kept, maintained ... all kinds of complications.


    Operation Puerto happened because Fuentes had a big special freezer and equipment for freezing blood (that he called 'Siberia') ... so that they didnt need to refresh nearly so often etc. 

    But it comes with risks ... its hard to get it right 100% of the time, and easy to get it wrong.   Tyler Hamilton - happens when they get it wrong
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1045 on: July 05, 2014, 23:58 »
    But it comes with risks ... its hard to get it right 100% of the time, and easy to get it wrong.   Tyler Hamilton - happens when they get it wrong

    My only point was really that I think Basso could have, with good PR, lied his way out of a suspension. Not saying doping is a good idea, or that people wouldn't think he doped. But he might have been able to skip the ban. It is besides the point though, was mainly just a side point to something else.

    As far as Hamilton goes are we talking about the Vuelta positive? Two team mates infusing each others blood seems avoidable to me. But to be completely honest Fuentes seems like a pretty lousy doctor, and I certainly think he is a danger to the public.
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    just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1047 on: July 08, 2014, 07:16 »
    http://www.theouterline.com/perspectives-on-doping-in-pro-cycling-3-will-frischkorn/




    For example, Will says, “Filippo Pozzato was my same age and a competitor as a junior, and he’d already been caught several times trying to dope and transfer drugs across borders, and so on.  So it wasn’t like we didn’t know something was going on.  We did – but it all just seemed kind of distant and hazy.”

    http://www.dopeology.org/people/Filippo_Pozzato/

    not according to laz hmmm

    Horner :lol

    But Frischkorn suggests that there were also several other American riders who decided to take a different direction.  He cites some well-known riders who were utilizing EPO programs during the Saturn years, and who had “unnatural” performance breakthroughs.  “People knew it – that EPO could really change their performance.”  Frischkorn tells of one older rider – still active in the professional peloton – who essentially explained to him the ropes of EPO usage; where to buy it, how to store it, and how to use it.   “It wasn’t anything really dark or evil, and nobody was pressuring anyone.  It was more just like your big brother showing you how to do something – just kind of trying to take care of you.”

    Anyway read the rest yourself
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1048 on: July 09, 2014, 12:16 »
    Good to see 1) anti-doping getting "mainstream" press coverage and 2) that it isn't focussed on cycling.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/28194582

    PS:

    Quote
    Of non-Olympic disciplines, chess recorded three adverse findings, while bridge returned one.

    WTactualF?
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1049 on: July 09, 2014, 12:43 »
    Good to see 1) anti-doping getting "mainstream" press coverage and 2) that it isn't focussed on cycling.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/28194582

    PS:

    WTactualF?

    Page filler, but it's uppers for concentration.
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon / Larry Sarni

     

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