collapse


LukasCPH

  • World Champion
  • *
  • Country: de
  • Posts: 11694
  • Liked: 7563
    • lukascph.media
  • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
Re: Darkside - General news
« Reply #570 on: May 27, 2013, 11:49 »
VERY good article
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/northern/2013/05/23/justice-in-sport/?utm_content=buffer13497&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer
It's a slippery slope. I can certainly understand the motivation, but I can foresee some unwanted consequences if things go that way.
  • ReplyReply
  • Cyclingnews Women's WorldTour Correspondent
    2017 0711|CYCLING PR Manager; 2016 Stölting Content Editor
    Views presented are my own. RIP Keith & Sean

    AG

    • Monument Winner
    • *
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 6589
    • Liked: 4020
    • Awards: Winner, 2013 National Championships prediction gameFan of the Year 2013
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #571 on: May 28, 2013, 01:52 »
    just to play devils advocate there

    why should this be an issue?

    Representing Australia, and being a part of an Olympic team - its a privilege, not a right.

    Why on earth SHOULD any athlete who refuses to answer questions from our main doping body about his or her behavior, actions or beliefs be able to represent Australia?

    We have ethical considerations to selecting teams, and being required to truthfully answer questions should be one of them.
  • ReplyReply

  • kabloemski

    • krebsy's #1 rooster booster
    • Road Captain
    • Country: za
    • Posts: 2358
    • Liked: 126
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #572 on: May 28, 2013, 07:52 »
    Perhaps some of the riders feel that doping is a systemic problem. And since they're just fitting into 'the system' they probably feel WTF should we talk? Perhaps the attitude of hate the game, not the player. This is that balancing act of various rights, the rather over policed/under policed issue again. It gives me a headache....
  • ReplyReply
  • Hey, Bart! Your epidermis is showing!

    L'arri

    • Is on Dr Search's Green and Grey Diet
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 8066
    • Liked: 6777
    • Dopeology.org @DopeologyDotOrg @L_arriviste
      • Dopeology.org
    • Awards: Post of the year 2015Best Opening Post 2012
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #573 on: May 28, 2013, 08:44 »
    Dusting off my old legal hat I think that, if challenged, the AOC's new rule as cited in the article above...

    Quote
    "All Athletes must:

    (2) co-operate with and assist ASADA , including by:

    (a) attending an interview to fully and truthfully answer questions;

    (b) giving information; and

    (c) producing documents, in an investigation being conducted by ASADA, even if to do so might tend to incriminate
    them or expose them to a penalty, sanction or other disciplinary measure … "

    ... would be struck down in court (especially in a system as famously pragmatic as that of Australia): the right to refuse self-incrimination is not something you can simply override by mutual agreement, as the author correctly states. His citations are spot on.

    I don't think you can encourage healthier sport by obligation, just as I believe it should be every individual's right not to talk if they so wish.

    The problem with the idea that an Australian shouldn't represent the nation if (s)he won't talk to ASADA is that one negative automatically assumes another: that the individual cannot be trusted not to besmirch the nation.

    So let's say you compel athletes to talk: everything then inevitably falls on the interpretation of "truthfully", the risk of misinformation and the vagaries of qualitatively judging the level of cooperation from the individual.

    You'll have a lot less problems arising from the testimony of an athlete who gave it voluntarily, which relates to the author's perfunctory conclusion: better to make athletes partners rather than objects, or worse, adversaries.
  • ReplyReply
  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon / Larry Sarni

    Jono L.

    • Domestique
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 532
    • Liked: 428
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #574 on: May 29, 2013, 02:40 »
    just to play devils advocate there

    why should this be an issue?

    Representing Australia, and being a part of an Olympic team - its a privilege, not a right.

    Why on earth SHOULD any athlete who refuses to answer questions from our main doping body about his or her behavior, actions or beliefs be able to represent Australia?

    We have ethical considerations to selecting teams, and being required to truthfully answer questions should be one of them.

    I guess the response is to ask the advocate what it is exactly he or she is aiming to achieve.

    If clean competition is the overall goal, then along the lines of the article, a cooperative approach may be the better approach.

    So talk of rights and priviledges is the wrong thing to be focussing on. Incentives, and what will get athletes talking is the path we should be heading down.

    If we want athletes to be truthful, it's clear that shaming or coercing them does not and will not work, but I imagine most people here are on board with that line of thinking
  • ReplyReply
  • « Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 02:50 by Jono L. »

    L'arri

    • Is on Dr Search's Green and Grey Diet
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 8066
    • Liked: 6777
    • Dopeology.org @DopeologyDotOrg @L_arriviste
      • Dopeology.org
    • Awards: Post of the year 2015Best Opening Post 2012
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #575 on: May 29, 2013, 09:21 »
    I guess the response is to ask the advocate what it is exactly he or she is aiming to achieve.

    If clean competition is the overall goal, then along the lines of the article, a cooperative approach may be the better approach.

    So talk of rights and priviledges is the wrong thing to be focussing on. Incentives, and what will get athletes talking is the path we should be heading down.

    If we want athletes to be truthful, it's clear that shaming or coercing them does not and will not work, but I imagine most people here are on board with that line of thinking

    I'm curious, Jono. Not exclusively a Dark Side question this but, as a successful international pro, how much interaction do you have with the Australian sporting authorities in a season?

    Is it just paperwork and a few race officials or do they have a bigger, more visible presence in your life? Do you have, for example, a representative to whom you can speak about anything related to cycling officialdom or is it more like choosing a phone number from a list in a handbook and calling it.

    Reason I ask is because I'm interested in how "unfamiliar" it would be to have to go talk with ASADA or Australian Cycling. Sometimes you read quotes from top cycling officials and it sounds like they would get wedding invitations.  :D
  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11694
    • Liked: 7563
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #576 on: May 29, 2013, 10:15 »
    I'm curious, Jono. Not exclusively a Dark Side question this but, as a successful international pro, how much interaction do you have with the Australian sporting authorities in a season?
    Excellent question, I'm curious to hear the answer.
    In fact, I'd like to make a question of this sort part of Jono's and my ongoing "interview", if you don't mind.
  • ReplyReply

  • Jono L.

    • Domestique
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 532
    • Liked: 428
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #577 on: May 29, 2013, 12:20 »
    I'm curious, Jono. Not exclusively a Dark Side question this but, as a successful international pro, how much interaction do you have with the Australian sporting authorities in a season?

    Is it just paperwork and a few race officials or do they have a bigger, more visible presence in your life? Do you have, for example, a representative to whom you can speak about anything related to cycling officialdom or is it more like choosing a phone number from a list in a handbook and calling it.

    Reason I ask is because I'm interested in how "unfamiliar" it would be to have to go talk with ASADA or Australian Cycling. Sometimes you read quotes from top cycling officials and it sounds like they would get wedding invitations.  :D

    Trust me, as much as I love to think I am, I'm no big shot at all. Even in the slightest..

    If by sporting authorities you ASADA, then very litte.

    Continental leve cyclists are not part of the whereabouts system, only pro conti or world tour, or AIS scholarship holders. I was a state scholarship holder, but never national and then only a conti cyclist. I can tell you the number of times I've been tested, not many!

    1) In Italy with the national team at a junior race, the morning of a race they told all the managers that each rider had to front up to a blood test before they would be allowed to start. 2007
    2) Goulburn to Sydney RR, finished 4th, that race they tested the entire top ten. 2008
    3) Qinghai Lake - Pre race medical and blood test 2010

    That's it.

    Realistically, though, that's nothing to be too concerned about, because frankly, I don't win many races...

    In terms of officials other than ASADA, so Cycling Australia or Cycling Victoria, In australia you get to know the same old commisaires at the races etc

    I don't think I properly understand the question to be honest, there's not really that many situations where you would go and speak to the officials, but generally it is a small pond so you end up getting to know the same fish
  • ReplyReply

  • Jono L.

    • Domestique
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 532
    • Liked: 428
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #578 on: May 29, 2013, 12:43 »
    To short the waffling of the previous post, paperwork. That's it.

    If you choose to go beyond that by being chatting and friendly at races, yeah ok, but it's paperworky only.
  • ReplyReply

  • L'arri

    • Is on Dr Search's Green and Grey Diet
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 8066
    • Liked: 6777
    • Dopeology.org @DopeologyDotOrg @L_arriviste
      • Dopeology.org
    • Awards: Post of the year 2015Best Opening Post 2012
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #579 on: May 29, 2013, 13:15 »
    I don't think I properly understand the question to be honest, there's not really that many situations where you would go and speak to the officials, but generally it is a small pond so you end up getting to know the same fish

    You understood it perfectly, Jono, thanks! That's what I was interested in.

    When I was racing as a kid, British Cycling (or the BCF as everyone knew it then) was a pretty parochial operation. We knew some of the local figureheads by name - the ones who supposedly had some pull - but frankly even my club chairman didn't know who I was.

    Everything seemed to operate on rumour and hearsay and when I rode an international race, I only heard about selection at the last moment: there was no question of preparing for the event.

    It was a postcode lottery however. In some regions things were better organised and there would be people in the fabric of the BCF that would help you with contacts etc. Wiggins probably benefitted from that framework, just based on what I've read.
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31566
    • Liked: 11186
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    Jono L.

    • Domestique
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 532
    • Liked: 428
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #581 on: June 02, 2013, 01:49 »
    Apologies if posted elsewhere already,

    http://crankpunk.com/2013/06/01/same-sh*t-different-sh*t/
  • ReplyReply

  • Xe.no

    • Sunday Rider
    • Country: no
    • Posts: 31
    • Liked: 14
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #582 on: June 03, 2013, 15:11 »
    Christmas canceled?

    "the Inner Ring @inrng 3m

    Mauro Santambrogio also tests positive for EPO via @pierbergonzi"
  • ReplyReply
  • I'm sorry if my English is poor. But hey it could be worse, he could be dead like my French

    just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31566
    • Liked: 11186
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #583 on: June 04, 2013, 08:26 »
    Ram and I made this point last year and rammed it home ( :lol) re all the CNN stuff I even had it in my points to fuller

    but another great crankpunk blog - http://crankpunk.com/2013/06/04/the-question-of-doping-in-asia-and-a-conflict-of-interests/
  • ReplyReply

  • ram

    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #584 on: June 04, 2013, 09:25 »
    Author- Lee Rodgers
    Salt quantity- one whole ladle
    He loves the attention, and had years to make an ad hominem post, yet here ACJ makes a proper allegation and lo and behold who's quickest to jump on the bandwagon?

    Would rather a credible source say it. Yes, I know testing is lesser, the likely more unabashed doping is here, but I'd so believe any Chinese, HKG, Japanese or Australian in the CT cct than any bloody WT rider.
  • ReplyReply

  • Jono L.

    • Domestique
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 532
    • Liked: 428
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #585 on: June 04, 2013, 09:28 »
    You don't need salt with Lee's post. In this instance
  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11694
    • Liked: 7563
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #586 on: June 04, 2013, 09:39 »
    So, Ram, you interpret it as though he's accusing Vini Fantini?
    I read it more like a general painting-with-the-brush of the Asian circuit, where there undoubtedly are some dopers and possibly even doping teams, than an accusation of the few Euro teams that come over once in a while.

    As for the ex-dopers that come to race in Asia - hello Nippo. Always been a dodgy team in my opinion.
  • ReplyReply

  • L'arri

    • Is on Dr Search's Green and Grey Diet
    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 8066
    • Liked: 6777
    • Dopeology.org @DopeologyDotOrg @L_arriviste
      • Dopeology.org
    • Awards: Post of the year 2015Best Opening Post 2012
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #587 on: June 04, 2013, 09:43 »
    Interesting from Lee that the Japanese say they don't dope:

    http://crankpunk.com/2013/06/04/the-question-of-doping-in-asia-and-a-conflict-of-interests/comment-page-1/#comment-1590

    I have had some contact with the Japanese fan scene recently and some of those guys seem to have been genuinely shocked by Dopeology when they learned about its existence. I wondered aloud where they'd been all these years: language issues aside, it rather fuelled the old cliché about the "hermit kingdom" anyway. :)

    Mainly because of the Team Nippo connections: Alberto Elli is a DS and a few darksiders have passed through there in recent seasons, including one (Andrenacci) who tested positive during his time there.

    One Japanese pro said rather diplomatically on Twitter that he found the website "very depressing".  :D
  • ReplyReply

  • ram

    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #588 on: June 04, 2013, 09:52 »
    So, Ram, you interpret it as though he's accusing Vini Fantini?
    I read it more like a general painting-with-the-brush of the Asian circuit, where there undoubtedly are some dopers and possibly even doping teams, than an accusation of the few Euro teams that come over once in a while.

    As for the ex-dopers that come to race in Asia - hello Nippo. Always been a dodgy team in my opinion.
    Def not. Just saying he had time for ages to call them and he's milking the cow that ACJ brought up, and he does like the attention, or so it seems from his prose. Always said that the most suspicious are from the continental cct, heck the cycling messiahs didn't even give a crap as JSG says.

    It's also not that hard judging by who gets transferred to upper echelons against whom the allegations are made.

    So many races in America, outside USA, lack any testing altogether.

    Also to add, using him as a sole source of truth is a bit like using a twitter rumour for innuendo. Jono's words are far more believable, and have far more weightage cos he's not a drama queen (no offence to Rodgers).
  • ReplyReply
  • « Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 10:05 by ram »

    Jono L.

    • Domestique
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 532
    • Liked: 428
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #589 on: June 04, 2013, 10:32 »
    Jono's words are far more believable, and have far more weightage cos he's not a drama queen (no offence to Rodgers).

    "just last week a well known pro on the Asian scene mailed me to check on things he had heard about guys that are ‘heavily suspected’ of doping that are in our races, and we had a whole list of tales, but all are, unfortunately, unpublishable because we have no hard proof"


    Hmmmmm who could that have been....
  • ReplyReply

  • search

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11883
    • Liked: 13163
    • Awards: 2019 Tour prediction champMember of the year 2016Post of the year 2016KeithJamesMC 2016Member of the year 20152012 CQ Ranking Tour GameAvatar of the Year 2013
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #590 on: June 04, 2013, 10:36 »
    another positive at the Giro, according to Gazzetta, a russian rider

    @CicloPassione 44m

    Oggi Gazzetta dello sport ventila altre positività, si parla di un russo. E' la guerra zozza per il controllo del #ciclismo e dell'Uci?


    so, one of those:

    Quote
    BELKOV Maxim
    BRUTT Pavel 
    GUSEV Vladimir
    IGNATENKO Petr
    KOZONTCHUK Dmitriy
    TROFIMOV Yury
    KARPETS Vladimir
    PETROV Evgeni
  • ReplyReply
  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    Jono L.

    • Domestique
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 532
    • Liked: 428
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #591 on: June 04, 2013, 10:40 »
    Belkov and his stage win would be the obvious choice
  • ReplyReply

  • search

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11883
    • Liked: 13163
    • Awards: 2019 Tour prediction champMember of the year 2016Post of the year 2016KeithJamesMC 2016Member of the year 20152012 CQ Ranking Tour GameAvatar of the Year 2013
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #592 on: June 04, 2013, 10:44 »
    yeah, would also coincide with him leaving the giro while leading in two classifications (he missed the time cut in the timetrial, officially because of a stomach bug)
  • ReplyReply

  • ram

    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #593 on: June 04, 2013, 11:10 »
    "just last week a well known pro on the Asian scene mailed me to check on things he had heard about guys that are ‘heavily suspected’ of doping that are in our races, and we had a whole list of tales, but all are, unfortunately, unpublishable because we have no hard proof"


    Hmmmmm who could that have been....
    Thought he might have mailed himself.... or maybe Andrei Mizourov?
  • ReplyReply

  • Jono L.

    • Domestique
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 532
    • Liked: 428
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #594 on: June 04, 2013, 11:29 »
    haha. nah.

    It was some stupid bloke who just went and broke his hip and collarbone. Again.
  • ReplyReply

  • AG

    • Monument Winner
    • *
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 6589
    • Liked: 4020
    • Awards: Winner, 2013 National Championships prediction gameFan of the Year 2013
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #595 on: June 04, 2013, 11:33 »
    hows the rest and recovery going Jono?

    Hope you have been doing better than me  :D
  • ReplyReply

  • Jono L.

    • Domestique
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 532
    • Liked: 428
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #596 on: June 04, 2013, 11:44 »
    Did my first hydrotherapy session today. and am allowed to walk with crutches rather than my stupid grandpa frame.. 


    Can't complain :D
  • ReplyReply

  • AG

    • Monument Winner
    • *
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 6589
    • Liked: 4020
    • Awards: Winner, 2013 National Championships prediction gameFan of the Year 2013
    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #597 on: June 04, 2013, 11:49 »
    have fun ... and hope it all goes well
  • ReplyReply

  • crankpunk

    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #598 on: June 04, 2013, 15:00 »
    love you too brother. stay annoyed.
  • ReplyReply

  • ram

    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #599 on: June 04, 2013, 16:09 »
    No worries mate, opinions are arseholes and mine are not even worth that. I mean, sh*t at least gives comfort and your post is being lauded by all but one person.

    But not annoyed at all. And heck I even read the blog regularly.
  • ReplyReply

  •  

    * Dark Side Chatbox

    Sorry, this shoutbox does not exist.

    Recent Posts



    Top
    Back to top