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Jono L.

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Re: Darkside - General news
« Reply #600 on: June 05, 2013, 00:32 »
Don't stress Lee, take RAM as a good barometer of what the real nutters out there are saying, If he reckons you talk it up at times, then there is certain to be a whole forum of whack jobs dedicated to you somewhere. replete with voodoo dolls and 15 reddit aliases they are probably going about this aready. If anything they have McCann thumb/finger/whatever in a jar of Kimchi somewhere and use it as part of some bizarre ritual to the flying spaghetti monster.

What I'm really trying to say is, how many sentences do I have to write before you both forget about whatever it was you came here to vent about?   :bouaaaaah :bouaaaaah
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  • Dim

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #601 on: June 05, 2013, 02:01 »
    Having read all this, im flabbergasted at just how often conti riders are tested.






























    As many as three times.. Blimey..

    This is one of the problems the sport is facing, because the level of anti doping is so low at the lower levels, its fairly easy for those that want to go the PED route to do so. Then, by the time they start reaching higher levels in the sport its already ingrained in them.
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  • Jono L.

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #602 on: June 05, 2013, 02:59 »
    Don't forget thgouh Dim, if I started winning a bunch of races, I'd be getting tested a lot more. But most likely still not as much as we would like
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  • AG

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #603 on: June 05, 2013, 06:30 »
    love you too brother. stay annoyed.

    :wave

    Hi Lee.  great to see you here.

    you doing the tour of Korea this year?     :D

    (last years edition  - http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/04/rider-diaries/lee-rodgers-diary-tour-of-korea-stage-5-marred-by-multiple-crashes-sketchy-support_215643 )

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  • ram

    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #604 on: June 05, 2013, 07:24 »
    :wave

    Hi Lee.  great to see you here.

    you doing the tour of Korea this year?     :D

    (last years edition  - http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/04/rider-diaries/lee-rodgers-diary-tour-of-korea-stage-5-marred-by-multiple-crashes-sketchy-support_215643 )
    They're doing a good job this year and one of our lot is well involved with the Tour in an official capacity.

    And no CCN aren't riding.
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  • « Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 11:26 by ram »

    kabloemski

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #605 on: June 05, 2013, 07:59 »
    Quote
    one of our lot

    Oops! Tapatalk acting a bit whack since the update, deleted. Thanks.
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    lancasterke

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #606 on: June 05, 2013, 10:02 »

    As many as three times.. Blimey..

    This is one of the problems the sport is facing, because the level of anti doping is so low at the lower levels, its fairly easy for those that want to go the PED route to do so. Then, by the time they start reaching higher levels in the sport its already ingrained in them.

    this is somewhere that the bio passport doesn't help with either.

    strong conti rider, good engine, starts to dope (micro dosing epo for example) for the results to get the wins needed to get a pro conti contract, a couple of wins, and moves up a level (as a rouleur/domestique), now worried his blood levels can't fall much, keeps doping to avoid a passport positive (for not doping), keeps microdosing it becomes normal for him, not actually tested very often, but lower blood levels might get flagged, so is now weighing up glow time of epo vs too low a haemoglobin.

    is this a conceivable scenario or am i missing something?
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  • Dim

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #607 on: June 05, 2013, 13:02 »
    At pro conti level, i very much doubt there is too much in the way of Bio passport data. Hell, theres World Tour riders that have said they havnt been tested for 8-9 months.

    I think its safe to assume that their are pro conti riders with blank passports
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #608 on: June 06, 2013, 11:12 »
    UCI reveals that EUS' Alexander Serebryakov actually tested positive twice. This second positive was also for EPO and pre-dates the one already announced by a whole year:

    http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENewsDetails2011.asp?id=OTMzNQ

    Hat tip to @inrng for what will now become Team Type 1's first positive.
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #609 on: June 06, 2013, 15:11 »
    And why did they only announce the second positive (that's really the first positive) 16 months after it was taken?

    Did it take that long to analyse? Surely not. Unless tests are simply taken, and only some get analysed right away - that would be worrying.
    Or did they sweep it under the carpet at first (with some "lobbying" from Sanofi maybe?), and now that Serebryakov has been thrown under the bus anyway, Sanofi is no longer a TT1 sponsor, and the UCI's own version of Game of Thrones is underway, they decided to get more blackmail material on the Russians?

    EDIT: I only now bother to read the UCI press release thoroughly (which tells you how much content they normally have). It was a re-analysis.
    A good idea to re-test previous samples from riders that have a positive, only the technical details of that have me wondering. The lab only knows a number, so someone at the UCI must have told them to test no. X8U758G (completely made up) again. And I certainly hope they only asked them to re-test, without any further information... It says a lot about them if I'm getting to the point of all but accusing the UCI of manipulating evidence (or rather, producing it so that it fits the narrative) when it fits their agenda without finding it outrageous.
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    AG

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #610 on: June 07, 2013, 02:46 »
    I have no doubt that they manipulate evidence.

    They have been doing it for a very long time now - its not at all surprising ... just depressing.

    But yeah, I would like to know a bit more about the decision and process involved in re-testing that particular sample ...

    - was it because of the +ve?
    - were other samples re-tested?
    - what is the point of re-testing someone who has already tested +ve subsequently?  was there doubts about the latter test so they re-tested lots of that riders samples to confirm?
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #611 on: June 07, 2013, 08:19 »
    Nikita Novikov tests positive for a substance I've never heard of before:

    Quote
    Nikita Novikov provisionally suspended

    The UCI advised Russian rider Nikita Novikov that he is provisionally suspended. The decision to provisionally suspend this rider was made in response to a report from the WADA accredited laboratory in Barcelona indicating an Adverse Analytical Finding of Hydroxy-ostarine / O Dephenyl-ostarine in a urine sample collected from him in an out of competition test on 17th May 2013.
    The provisional suspension of Mr. Nikita Novikov remains in force until a hearing panel convened by the Russian Cycling Federation determines whether he has committed an anti-doping rule violation under Article 21 of the UCI Anti-Doping Rules.
    Mr. Nikita Novikov has the right to request and attend the analysis of his B sample.
    Under the World Anti-Doping Code and the UCI Anti-Doping Rules, the UCI is unable to provide any additional information at this time.

    UCI Communication Service

    And the UCI needs someone to better format their PDF press releases. An editing nightmare. :rolleye
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #612 on: June 07, 2013, 08:26 »
    Russians getting hammered this year!  :D
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #613 on: June 07, 2013, 09:10 »
    Russians getting hammered this year!  :D
    I wonder why... :rolleye
    New UCI motto: "Honi soit qui mal y pense"?
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #614 on: June 07, 2013, 09:32 »
    Did they dope?

    is out today, folks! It's a one-off magazine on (mainly stage race) riders from the 80s through to the present, discussing their performances and analysing their numbers.

    It was written by:

    - the owner of French site Cyclisme Dopage

    - Antoine Vayer (the ever-controversial @festinaboy)

    - Frédéric Portoleau (the engineer who devised and published the methodology for measurements some years ago and who collaborated with Ballester and Walsh on LA Confidentiel), and

    - Dr Jean-Pierre de Mondenard, anti-doping expert and frequent contributor to Le Monde newspaper.

    I've had my copy for a week or two already and I'm now allowed to talk about it:  :D



    I have the French language edition but it's available in English too.

    Let's take a look inside...

    Timings, VAM and power numbers can be rather opaque, as you can imagine, so the authors have grouped them into ranges to which they apply a simple "heat scale". Normal (green), Suspect (yellow), Miraculous (orange) and Mutant (red)  :D

    There are smaller blocks dedicated to selected performances on climbs and in TTs by riders in supporting roles or those who have since been busted:



    The main section of the magazine consists of double-page spreads on the big guns of recent history and how their performances measure up, based on known climbs and Portoleau's published methodology.

    Let's see an example, in this case Marco Pantani:



    You can see various climbs over the years Pantani rode, with the details carefully recorded for each performance. The colour ranges have been applied so that you can get a good overall picture of what the authors think of the Italian's career.

    On the opposite page, the "official" narrative of Pantani's rides followed by the allegations that dogged him, ruining his career and eventually his life.

    This pattern of "weighing up" the performances - but also the surrounding hype - of riders is a common thread throughout the magazine. I found it very readable and often fascinating. Collecting all that data is very impressive.

    You can find out more and order from:

    http://www.alternativeditions.com/21-counts/
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  • search

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #615 on: June 07, 2013, 09:39 »
    Nikita Novikov tests positive for a substance I've never heard of before

    so Vacansoleil needs to hope for Rujano not to be found guilty before the Tour if they don't want to lose their spot...
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    froome19

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #616 on: June 07, 2013, 09:55 »
    From #vacansoleil's team manager:

    Quote
    Team manager Daan Luijkx was very disappointed: “At the end of 2011 we hired this young talent for two years. Since that time he didn’t manage to reach his old level in our environment despite all the efforts of our team. It needs no clarification that as a team we are devastated by this. As a team you try to give your riders a safe environment with good coaching and staff and that makes it very disappointing when a rider does something wrong, like it appears this is the case now. When I talked to the rider last night, after the UCI informed us, he said he had no idea how the substance got in his body.”

    Luijkx also wants to add something positive: “I strongly believe the sport is on his way up and I am sorry for the sport that this happens but it is good that possible breaches of the rules are traced.”

    And Search.. true but they won't lose their Tour spot as MPCC won't make teams withdraw from a Grand Tour (larri's got the rules in English)
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    L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #617 on: June 07, 2013, 10:43 »
    A few comments to address some of the issues described above:

    SARMS and Ostarine

    It is true that we have not heard of this substance before in cycling. Ostarine is a member of a drug class called SARMS. Ostarine itself may not be so well known but the SARMS class is certainly in the spotlight.

    Whilst it was only a matter of time before it appeared, I wasn't aware that there were tests for it already, so that was good news in a certain sense.

    Like GW101516, Ostarine is not yet an approved drug but you can get it on the Internet. GTx, the pharma company that's developing it, did clinical trials in 2010 but as far as I'm aware, it is not out there in an official capacity as yet.

    Unlike GW101516, Ostarine is arguably a bit less scary and a lot closer to market availability. It stimulates an increase in muscle and bone mass, acting as a sort of new age version of anabolic steroids but its application is both well understood and fairly limited.

    MPCC

    With regard to the MPCC rules, Vacansoleil doesn't have enough doping incidents to warrant an auto-suspension but it's worth bearing in mind that on the face of it, Rujano wouldn't be the tipping point anyway.

    Rujano is under criminal investigation (not yet charged, just named) and that process will probably continue for up to a year from his first being named and then there would probably be another year to wait before any sort of hearing.

    So let's say for the sake of an hypothetical argument that the matter was already thus advanced. Even if he were to be charged and convicted of a criminal offence right now, that would still not qualify under the MPCC rules. Where there are no positive tests or dodgy blood values, what the MPCC then requires is a sanction from the appropriate sporting body. In other words, Rujano would have to be suspended officially by the Venezuelan cycling authority (if that's where he holds his licence) acting on proof of the criminal conviction.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #618 on: June 07, 2013, 10:58 »
    My "official" take on Serebryakov:
    Double EPO positive for Serebryakov

    Now I wait for the UCI henchmen to arrive and make me an "offer I can't refuse". ;)
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #619 on: June 07, 2013, 11:06 »
    My "official" take on Serebryakov:
    Double EPO positive for Serebryakov

    Now I wait for the UCI henchmen to arrive and make me an "offer I can't refuse". ;)

    Nice, Fus! Note however that in your Novikov article (http://www.cyclingquotes.com/news/novikov_tests_positive_for_ostarine/) you state:

    "O-Dephenyl-ostarine, a fat reduction product that’s still in clinical trials"

    Ostarine is not a fat reduction product. Ostarine has the same effect as anabolic steroids: it promotes growth of Lean Body Mass (Muscle + Bone).
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #620 on: June 07, 2013, 11:16 »
    Well, unlike you I know next to nothing about doping products. I just looked a bit at what I could find on it, and concluded it would be something like that.

    Thanks for the heads-up, replaced it with "product promoting muscle growth". :)
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #621 on: June 07, 2013, 13:32 »
    Well, unlike you I know next to nothing about doping products. I just looked a bit at what I could find on it, and concluded it would be something like that.

    Thanks for the heads-up, replaced it with "product promoting muscle growth". :)

    It's cool, Fus, I just didn't want some fool like me picking you up on that. I get a lot of that with Dopeology, you know, people not correcting me as such (which I welcome) but picking holes in the scientific definitions. :)
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #622 on: June 07, 2013, 15:36 »
    Hope those aren't needle marks on that arm:

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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #623 on: June 07, 2013, 22:37 »
    Hope those aren't needle marks on that arm:



    Probably not, if it was he would probably be smart enough to do some sort of one armed victory scene, also could be from testing as well. Plus those marks would be very big. One would have to be very incompetent handling a needle to make such a big mark, something I suspect most dopers wouldn't be.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #624 on: June 10, 2013, 08:13 »
    Hope those aren't needle marks on that arm:



    1 of them is in the wrong spot definitely the other looks a little hi as well if they were to be intravenous , and no way a needle should leave that sort of mark , IV bag if done really poorly maybe - but bruising is not quite right fwiw   
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #625 on: June 11, 2013, 10:53 »
    11.06.2013

    The Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation (CADF) worked to reinforce the efficiency of its programme and procedures in 2012, as testified in its business report published on Monday.

    The number of tests carried out across all the cycling disciplines was 14,168, which is more than in 2011 (13,144), thanks to the renegotiation of prices with the different sample collection agencies and the increase in contribution from the UCI Professional Continental teams. Among these tests, 7558 were carried out in competition and 6610 out of competition.

    While carrying out an increased number of tests, the CADF also met heightened quality criteria which earned it the ISO 9001:2008 certification. Full compliance with ISO procedures, declared in December 2012, concerns test planning, the registered testing pool, therapeutic use exemption, sample collection and results management. The ISO certification, awarded by an independent body, confirms the CADF’s transparency.

    The CADF continues to develop projects in collaboration with the UCI, such as the study “Changing the doping culture in cycling,” conducted by the Institute of Sport Sciences of the University of Lausanne and presented by the CADF in 2012 as part of its education projects. This study proposed a sociological approach to anti-doping by identifying potential pressure coming from the athletes’ entourage.

    The CADF’s 2012 budget, certified by an external revision body, revealed significant financial stability, after four years of investment to develop the biological passport. This pioneering tool in the fight against doping, widely recognised throughout the world, has been extended to cover all cycling disciplines as well as women athletes.

    CADF Director Dr Francesca Rossi declared: “2012 was a very constructive year for the CADF as we combined the quantity of tests with the quality of our programme as far as procedures are concerned. Not only did the number of tests increase, but we have also obtained ISO certification, the international standard of quality for procedures.”

     

    UCI Communication Services

    report http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTYzMDQ&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=ODczMTA&LangId=1
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  • just some guy

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    L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #627 on: June 11, 2013, 17:16 »
    Antoine Vayer : "Armstrong? A mere trifle compared with Big Mig"

    http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2013/06/06/antoine-vayer-armstrong-presque-un-petit-joueur-a-cote-du-roi-miguel_3425660_3242.html

    Recent interview in Le Monde, by Stéphane Mandard

    Since the so-called "Tour of Renewal" in 1999, a year after the Festina Affair, Antoine Vayer has closely examined the peloton's performance, calculating the power output of the riders on the big cols of the Tour de France. Again this summer, the former Festina team trainer will analyse for Le Monde the "speed cameras" he's put in place for the 100th edition. On Friday 7th June, he published 21 Counts [see above - L'arri], a one-off publication which brings together for the first time the performances of Tour winners since 1983. A useful guide for the next Grande Boucle.

    You have decyphered the performances of Tour winners for the last three decades. Is anyone beyond suspicion?

    One rider alone seems always to have had "human" performances, Greg Lemond. He won his first Tour with an average of 381 watts in 1986, then 408w in 1989 and 407w in 1990. He stays in the green zone. All the other winners were "flashed" at some point or other in their career doing over 410w (the threshold of a suspicious ride), 430w (the stuff of miracles) and indeed 450w (mutant). With the coming of EPO at the beginning of the 1990s, a rider who could turn out 400w for 20 minutes now managed 440w for 40 minutes! That's what happened with Bjarne Riis, nicknamed "Mr 60%" for his haematocrit level elevated well above the allowed 50%, who in 1993 topped out at 399w but then pulled off 449w during his 1996 Tour win at 32 years old. Meanwhile Lemond stayed at 410w after 1990 and was dropped by donkeys who had become thoroughbreds.

    Lance Armstrong was described by the USADA as having benefitted from the "most efficient doping programme in history", yet he's not at the top of your list of highest performing Tour winners

    With his average record of 438w in the 2001 Tour, "The Boss" actually comes no higher than 6th in our table. He's a mere trifle compared to "Big Mig" Indurain with his five Tour wins. The Spaniard seemed unbeatable with his 455w average in the 1995 edition. Bjarne Riis, Marco Pantani, Jan Ullrich and even Alberto Contador - with 439w in 2009 - did better than Armstrong. The American reigned for 7 Tours between 1999 and 2005 on "hardly" more than 428 to 438w on average. His heyday began after Festina and included the introduction of the EPO test, so he had to be more careful. He couldn't do EPO willy-nilly like his predecessors. He had to be more precise, specific, measured, organised and intelligent.

    Unlike Armstrong, Indurain has never been bothered by doping scandals

    "Big Mig" tested positive once, for Salbutamol in 1994, but he was exonerated by a "disciplinary" hearing of his national authority. In fact, Indurain's doctor Sabino Padilla was better than Armstrong's, Michele Ferrari. He turned an 80kg rider into a winged climber who could do mountains faster than a 56kg Pantani, the majority of whose performances went beyond 450w in both the Tour and the Giro. Like Eufemiano Fuentes some years later, Padilla enabled a marathon runner like Martin Fiz to be a King of Spain too.

    Another rider who never tested positive is Laurent Jalabert. Having taken into account hundreds of performances, you rank the Frenchman in the category of 'mutant'?

    When Armstrong heard about what "Jaja" said in front of the [French] Senatorial Commission on Doping on May 15th, he asked me if it had been under oath. "Were we doped? I don't think so," Jalabert told the senators. But how on earth did he, an excellent sprinter, transform himself into the best climber in the Tour under Manolo Saiz, the boss of ONCE and the godfather of Spanish cycling, who was recently on the defendants' bench at the Puerto trial. During the Vuelta in 1996 and 1997, the former green jersey climbed Lagos de Covadonga - 8.5km at a gradient of 9.18% - in less than 25 minutes, putting out 468 and 478 watts respectively. On the Tour, we even renamed the Col de Mende the "Montée Jalabert" after him, a guy who managed to do that climb in 1995 with 495 watts! He also claimed under oath that his doctor back then was nicknamed "Dr Citroën" as opposed to Armstrong's Dr Ferrari. So how is it then that the name "Jalabert" appears in the documents seized from Ferrari's home by a Bologna judge? Why does his phone number figure in the Dottore's notebook? And why does it also say that his haematocrit went from 42% on 19 January 1997 to 54% on 28 August 1997? If I'd been a senator, I'd have also asked him why, when he was 3rd on GC, did he run away from the 1998 Tour de France with his mentor Manolo Saiz after the police got involved? Armstrong said recently that he'd be the first to tell all if a Truth and Reconciliation Commission was put together. So Laurent Jalabert should join in.

    With regard to performance analysis, you identifiy four "eras" of doping in the last 30 years

    Before 1990, we were in the the pre-EPO era: flirting with 410 watts on a mix of corticosteroids and anabolics. Then we hit a full 450w when EPO was used en masse, until 1998. After the EPO test was introduced, blood transfusions made a big comeback: that's the Armstrong era, stabilising around 430 watts. Since 2011, we're talking about a new "mixed" era, where performances seem less but with still-suspicious output above 410 watts. It's simple: EPO and transfusions are too obvious and detectable, so they've given way to "power" products like AICAR. It's less about oxygenation and more about muscle fibres. They can turn out less watts for longer but they can contract their muscles longer instead.

    Do you reckon that performances are more human then?

    There haven't been any "miraculous" rides on our "speed cameras" since 2011. Cadel Evans was in the green at 406w on average. In 2012, Wiggins was marked yellow at 415w with Froome and Nibali above 410w. This decrease in performance enables a rider like Nibali, at 414w average, to win the 2013 Giro with his Astana team run by Vinokourov, a former "mutant".

    Today the majority of riders and trainers use power calculations to measure their physical limits. Why doesn't the UCI use the same measures as an indirect proof of doping?

    Since 2012, the UCI has forbidden the remote communication of these power measures which are collected by more than half of the Tour peloton. Playing the transparency card would be dangerous. It's safer to stick to the first part of the definition of doping: "Practices consisting of the use of substances or forbidden methods" and to jettison the second: "in order to increase the physical or mental capacity for performance." Accordingly, as the former WADA chairman Dick Pound recognises, detecting substances remains tough and the controls are still easy to beat. But the performances themselves, they don't lie.

    You're part of Change Cycling Now, a pressure group which came together after the Armstrong Affair. Alongside Greg Lemond and its founder Jamie Fuller, you demanded the resignation of the UCI President Pat McQuaid. How is he still in that role and ready to run for another term this September?

    Pat McQuaid ought to have resigned after the Armstrong Affair. Greg Lemond offered himself in December 2012 as an interim president. But a dog doesn't want to let go of a sausage. I met McQuaid in January. He told me he was sure he'd be reelected. The electoral rules - which give as much of a say to France as to any other member country - and his trips to faraway places had given him enough guarantees. Developing cycling in Africa or Cuba  is more important than the fight against doping. We told Dick Pound that we'd support him as president but he decline. We're going to Australia to meet people involved in anti-doping. Perhaps when we get back, we'll have found a candidate to run against McQuaid.

    =======================

    The Ashenden cometh? :D
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  • kabloemski

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #628 on: June 11, 2013, 17:47 »
    Nice article L'arri!
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #629 on: June 11, 2013, 17:53 »
    Nice article L'arri!

    Thanks, Kablinka!

    So it's got to be Tracey Gaudry or - an outside bet - Ashenden. Both very appropriate.  :D
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