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just some guy

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Re: Darkside - General news
« Reply #630 on: June 11, 2013, 18:00 »
Thanks, Kablinka!

So it's got to be Tracey Gaudry or - an outside bet - Ashenden. Both very appropriate.  :D

can only be Gaudry re UCI rules

i hope not , next election after oceania is fixed
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #631 on: June 11, 2013, 18:02 »
    can only be Gaudry re UCI rules

    i hope not , next election after oceania is fixed

    but will make fuller look like an ass so I hope so  :niceday
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #632 on: June 11, 2013, 18:03 »
    can only be Gaudry re UCI rules

    i hope not , next election after oceania is fixed

    Ah, OK. What are the rules, then? Just so I'm clear on who can and cannot run? Why could Greg be an interim president, for example?
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon / Larry Sarni

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #633 on: June 11, 2013, 18:04 »
    All the other winners were "flashed" at some point or other in their career doing over 410w (the threshold of a suspicious ride), 430w (the stuff of miracles) and indeed 450w (mutant).

    L'arri - great job with this.
    I have ordered the magazine, but it hasn't arrived yet.
    Can you please explain how the power categories was rationalised?
    Thanks
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #634 on: June 11, 2013, 18:06 »
    L'arri - great job with this.
    I have ordered the magazine, but it hasn't arrived yet.
    Can you please explain how the power categories was rationalised?
    Thanks

    Yeah, they took ranges of w/kg and applied what was humanly possible, suspect, miraculous and mutant. Do you need more info than that? Can probably scan it for you.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #635 on: June 11, 2013, 18:09 »
    Ah, OK. What are the rules, then? Just so I'm clear on who can and cannot run? Why could Greg be an interim president, for example?

    Lemond - he could not that was one of the points I made to fuller , Velocast etc and Ram and I were like wtf are these people on about , Ram did all the leg work and found the UCI rules

    off the top of my head the person going for Pres much be nominated by there federation and you can not have 2 nominations per fed

    Gaudry is the UCI rep for Oceania
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #636 on: June 11, 2013, 18:32 »
    Yeah, they took ranges of w/kg and applied what was humanly possible, suspect, miraculous and mutant. Do you need more info than that? Can probably scan it for you.
    Appreciate the offer, but I'll wait until I receive my copy and then I can digest at leisure.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #637 on: June 11, 2013, 22:04 »
    It's simple: EPO and transfusions are too obvious and detectable, so they've given way to "power" products like AICAR. It's less about oxygenation and more about muscle fibres. They can turn out less watts for longer but they can contract their muscles longer instead.
    Could you put this in simpler words for someone who doesn't understand much about the body mechanics (i.e. me)?

    off the top of my head the person going for Pres much be nominated by there federation and you can not have 2 nominations per fed

    Gaudry is the UCI rep for Oceania
    But if Gaudry supported Ashenden, couldn't he get nominated by Cycling Australia as well? Or would he need a valid UCI license (I guess so)?
    I'll have to have a look at the UCI rules myself, for some reason I love diving into them from time to time.
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    Views presented are my own. RIP Keith & Sean

    L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #638 on: June 12, 2013, 08:17 »
    Could you put this in simpler words for someone who doesn't understand much about the body mechanics (i.e. me)?

    Neither do I, Fus. ;)

    What he's saying there is that blood oxygenation methods - i.e. EPO injections and transfusions - are now more detectable via the bio-passport and even the days of microdosing look to be coming to an end. The risks have increased.

    The new frontier is with muscle enhancement drugs - the domain of these new peptide hormones and GW501516, Telmisartan, AICAR - either because they're not yet detectable or because they're much harder to catch. It's no longer about oxygenating your blood but rather about enabling your muscles to work harder for longer within the blood norms.

    So the gains are more, shall we say marginal, but they still represent a significant gain on your rivals and the beginnings of another arms race.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #639 on: June 12, 2013, 08:20 »
    It's no longer about oxygenating your blood but rather about enabling your muscles to work harder for longer within the blood norms.
    That's something I can understand.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #640 on: June 12, 2013, 13:00 »
    Pod cast with Vayer with Phil Gomes and Tanman

    https://soundcloud.com/cycling-central/podcast-12-june-2013-special

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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #641 on: June 12, 2013, 13:10 »
    am listening now but had this thought , Now I have not read the mag , but it seems LeMond gets the only free pass, with Evans , wiggo , Sastra being the less mutant as a far as I can work out

    If this was a scientific journal there is now way it would get past the 1st step

    The science is Junk but interesting the biggest thing is ofc Skins/fuller/CNN/LeMond conflict of interest

    Maybe  I should not say anything having not read it but that has never stopped me before and not likely now or in the future   
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #642 on: June 12, 2013, 13:17 »
    I do like the fact that the spotlight on the Big Mig
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #643 on: June 12, 2013, 13:26 »
    am listening now but had this thought , Now I have not read the mag , but it seems LeMond gets the only free pass, with Evans , wiggo , Sastra being the less mutant as a far as I can work out

    If this was a scientific journal there is now way it would get past the 1st step

    The science is Junk but interesting the biggest thing is ofc Skins/fuller/CNN/LeMond conflict of interest

    Maybe  I should not say anything having not read it but that has never stopped me before and not likely now or in the future

    The magazine mentions CCN in the foreword and has lots of SKINS ads, but it's not really a "political" mouthpiece for CCN. If it was, it would be unreadable. I know that the authors needed plenty of Fuller's help to get this project funded, so that would only add to your argument, JSG, but my only response to that is "so what", really.

    Meanwhile, Lemond is the only one listed among Tour winners who posted human numbers and he did so years before he was associated with Fuller or the others on CCN. According to the authors, nobody else - including Evans, Wiggins and Sastre - posts a complete spread of human numbers.

    Read it, JSG. You'll enjoy it and it will show you that your feelings all these years have been right. And the rest doesn't really matter.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #644 on: June 12, 2013, 13:26 »
    Lemond - he could not that was one of the points I made to fuller , Velocast etc and Ram and I were like wtf are these people on about , Ram did all the leg work and found the UCI rules

    off the top of my head the person going for Pres much be nominated by there federation and you can not have 2 nominations per fed

    Gaudry is the UCI rep for Oceania

    It reminds me of this:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22846140

    ;)
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    just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #645 on: June 12, 2013, 13:29 »
    The magazine mentions CCN in the foreword and has lots of SKINS ads, but it's not really a "political" mouthpiece for CCN. I know that the authors needed plenty of Fuller's help to get this project funded, so that would only add to your argument, JSG, but my only response to that is "so what", really.

    Meanwhile, Lemond is the only one listed among Tour winners who posted human numbers and he did so years before he was associated with Fuller or the others on CCN. According to the authors, nobody else - including Evans, Wiggins and Sastre - posts a complete spread of human numbers.

    science is like that Larri - conflict of interest is a major thing , it does not mean LeMond is any different but if you want to use this book to hang a hat on - it falls on the floor.

    It seems interesting and as I said maybe I should not say anything but ........  ;)
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #646 on: June 12, 2013, 15:29 »
    Ettore Torri has been replaced as the Italian Olympic Committee’s anti-doping prosecutor following a CONI assembly in Rome on Tuesday. Torri’s replacement is 55-year-old Tammaro Maiello, a prosecutor with the Court of Audit in Rome.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #647 on: June 12, 2013, 18:04 »
    Just got my copy of Alternativ Editions as pdf.. having a root through now..
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #648 on: June 12, 2013, 23:45 »
    A podcast with Atoine Vayer

    https://soundcloud.com/cycling-central/podcast-12-june-2013-special

    EDIT: ahh already posted. Never mind. :ohu
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  • « Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 02:04 by Jono L. »

    Blackbandit222

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #649 on: June 13, 2013, 00:07 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vayer-casts-doubt-over-performances-of-indurain-and-jalabert

    I don't know about the science but certainly a Festina coach would be in the know.

    I like the generation aspect and the fact the 50% Hemo test worked somewhat to tamper performances.

    Need to get some video of Jalabert pulling 500 watts.

    I'll listen to the podcast too.
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  • Sagan supporter.

    Dim

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #650 on: June 13, 2013, 00:08 »
    500w is a bit misleading as all of the figures have been adjusted to 70kg rider weight..
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #653 on: June 13, 2013, 08:17 »
    http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-france-2009-contador-vo2max.html

    Quote
    "Therefore, you cannot use isolated performances, lacking control over variables, to infer doping."

    Oh hey, pretty much my point in the Nibali thread :D
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    L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #654 on: June 13, 2013, 08:23 »
    Need to get some video of Jalabert pulling 500 watts.



    495 watts

    ... at about 10m30s he drops Bottaro (Gewiss ;)) and throttles up one of the nastiest climbs in France, now named after him. This ain't no Lieuwe Westra.

    If I'd had a climb named after me, I might not want to admit I was doped to the gills when I "made history" on it. It's a difficult thing when people build a memorial to your bullsh*t but I guess there may come a point where you start to believe your own story no matter how silly it becomes.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #655 on: June 13, 2013, 09:07 »
    Liggett sounds as if he can't believe it during the broadcast.
    But nobody made the connection back then - did they not know or did they not want to know?
    Riis and Indurain are looking well-prepared too.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #656 on: June 13, 2013, 09:34 »
    Liggett sounds as if he can't believe it during the broadcast.
    But nobody made the connection back then - did they not know or did they not want to know?
    Riis and Indurain are looking well-prepared too.

    The 1995 Tour was a crazy one, Fus. I don't know if you saw it. I was just a teenager then but, even though I didn't know much about doping, I couldn't avoid the sense that the performances were getting extreme. That was probably the first year I noticed the obvious big-ringing on HC cols.

    I don't think the concept of "anti-doping" really existed until Festina. There were post-race controls and there were always stories about anabolic steroids but doping didn't really figure as anything pernicious until it became increasingly obvious that "everyone" was doing it.

    That was the tipping point: not the candystore array of drugs and methods but the embarassment at their ubiquity. It has probably been said by far more eminent commentators than I, but the response or lack thereof to doping has always been a matter of perception rather than health, science or morality.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #657 on: June 13, 2013, 09:48 »
    Aye Festina seems to have been the tipping point in world sport to a point

    You would have though 1968 in Mexico would have been/should have been but nope Willy breaks his chain and sport/cycling loses it´s innocence
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #658 on: June 13, 2013, 10:05 »
    No, I think the first Tour I saw must have been either 1996, 1997, 1998 or 1999. I don't remember much from those, the earliest Tour memory I have is of a Danish newspaper front page & article in 1996 on the Champs-Élysées Sunday, and the following Monday.
    My earliest TV memory is of Javier Otxoa holding on to win the Hautacam stage in 2000 against an unleashed Armstrong.

    The whole Festina affair wasn't someone I really understood back then - I was 11, and only a casual follower. And I was naive on the issue for some time: I remember a chat with my father's cousin in 2003 where he said "they're all doping, it's not humanly possible to ride that way". I thought he was making that up, thinking there were some dopers, but surely not the vast majority.
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  • Blackbandit222

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #659 on: June 13, 2013, 10:18 »
    I was a Jr in HS then.  Man that opening tune really takes me back.  Funny I was just telling an eighty two yro today that 1995 wasn't long ago.  :ohno:

    I love when the green jersey throttles it up a climb.  :slow  :D

    Remember Jaja lived in Spain and wanted to escape the amount of testing the French Federation did.

    After reading Voets book Ive assumed everyone was doping to some degree there after.  It never affected my enjoyment of the sport.  If someone asked me is Lance doping, I'd respond without a doubt.  The better question being how and why hasn't he been caught.  To which we now know the answers.
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