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LiamP

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Re: Darkside - General news
« Reply #1050 on: July 12, 2014, 13:48 »
I only know this as it was mentioned elsewhere but Menchov has been banned until 2015 for Bio Passport adverse finding. Was there any formal annoucement of this  :S

This is the link http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTU3Mjg&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=Nzk5OTY&LangId=1
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  • « Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 14:11 by LiamP »

    DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1051 on: July 12, 2014, 14:50 »
    I only know this as it was mentioned elsewhere but Menchov has been banned until 2015 for Bio Passport adverse finding. Was there any formal annoucement of this  :S

    This is the link http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTU3Mjg&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=Nzk5OTY&LangId=1

    So this might be who the "Secret Pro" was talking about.

    Honestly after reading MR's book it comes as no surprise that Menchov would be caught this way.

    His Bio passport looked like a mountain stage that Rasmussen would have been favorite to win  :lol
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  • M Gee

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1052 on: July 12, 2014, 14:58 »
    I only know this as it was mentioned elsewhere but Menchov has been banned until 2015 for Bio Passport adverse finding. Was there any formal annoucement of this  :S

    This is the link http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTU3Mjg&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=Nzk5OTY&LangId=1

    One would think that would get coverage in the press. Wtf. Anyway, I'd be surprised if he gets a contract to come back - he's always struggled to be in the top levels. He always seemed to be one of those "not quite" riders.
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  • . . .He had the bit between his teeth, and he loiked the taste, mate . . .

    DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1053 on: July 12, 2014, 15:09 »
    He always seemed to be one of those "not quite" riders.

    He won three GT's, but Rasmussen said the same in his book, a Rabo DS told Michael that he thought he had a rider that would win the Tour (Menchov) and asked what MR thought. MR remembered thinking that he agreed that they had a rider that would win the Tour, but it wasn't Menchov.  :D
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1054 on: July 14, 2014, 11:07 »
    I only know this as it was mentioned elsewhere but Menchov has been banned until 2015 for Bio Passport adverse finding. Was there any formal annoucement of this  :S

    This is the link http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?MenuId=MTU3Mjg&ObjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=Nzk5OTY&LangId=1

    this is the new open UCI at work there will be no formal annoucements

    According to AP, the UCI will – with the apparent exception of “some” high-profile cases – no longer issue press releases to announce positive tests and bans. The information will instead be posted to its website, without fanfare, as happened in the Menchov case.

    This contrasts with the approach promised by UCI president Brian Cookson in his election manifesto in May of last year. "It is critical that the UCI embraces a more open and transparent approach in the way it conducts business," Cookson wrote at the time.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/menchov-case-an-example-of-the-ucis-new-way-of-communicating-on-doping-violations

    that is a disgrace
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    AG

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1055 on: July 14, 2014, 11:10 »
    agreed

    how is that open and transparent?   

     :angry
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1056 on: July 14, 2014, 11:15 »
    agreed

    how is that open and transparent?   

     :angry

    yep, half the thing about getting banned is the naming and shaming, They made their money , got the fame and results, A quiet press release ince every while from the UCI will not help in the negative public image that a big annoucement has associaited with it , and this negative image may stop some riders from doping.

    A very backward step from the UCI and WADA ( which is where it came from )
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1057 on: July 14, 2014, 11:16 »
    agreed

    how is that open and transparent?   

     :angry

    It is open, the information is out there, it is more a question of giving cycling a better reputation, this will lead to less coverage of the positive doping cases which will be less. This means that there is more coverage of cycling and less of doping in cycling. To be honest I think this is an improvement, those that really want the information can still find it, and it is still apparent where to find it.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1058 on: July 14, 2014, 11:22 »
    A ban is handed out for 2 reasons

    1 - as a punishment. There should be personal consequence if you get caught cheating.   

    2 - as a deterrent.   Being caught, and publicly punished, the damage to your reputation etc ... it deters others from cheating.

    So - in the case of Menchov - There is no consequence as he is retired ... and no deterrence to anyone as they didnt tell anyone.


    Its not good enough
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  • AG

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1059 on: July 14, 2014, 11:30 »
    It is open, the information is out there, it is more a question of giving cycling a better reputation, this will lead to less coverage of the positive doping cases which will be less. This means that there is more coverage of cycling and less of doping in cycling. To be honest I think this is an improvement, those that really want the information can still find it, and it is still apparent where to find it.

    as far as this goes DB-Coop - I could not disagree with you more.

    If they want PR .. hire a PR firm to spin it.

    ITS GOOD that they punish cheaters.   The more they catch the better it is.   So much better than those other cheating sports with no positives as they are not making any effort to catch them ...

    see - its not that hard.  Even I can do it.


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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1060 on: July 14, 2014, 11:40 »
    as far as this goes DB-Coop - I could not disagree with you more.

    If they want PR .. hire a PR firm to spin it.

    ITS GOOD that they punish cheaters.   The more they catch the better it is.   So much better than those other cheating sports with no positives as they are not making any effort to catch them ...

    see - its not that hard.  Even I can do it.

    The problem is that the sponsors are very much afraid of doping scandals, and that the many catches (which I agree is good) have resulted in a situation where it is very hard to find sponsors, if you look at the commercial value of sponsoring a cycling team, the value of such a sponsorship to cost far exceeds that of sponsoring a football team. They need to make doping a smaller part of cycling (visually too) if cycling is to move on.

    No need for a press release, just keep a list, anybody that want to know who is banned can just go look at the list. If anything they could increase the financial punishment of dopers, and flag any results by a rider prior to being caught, not just remove the one where he was caught.

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  • AG

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1061 on: July 14, 2014, 11:48 »
    but that is where the PR comes in.   Sponsors make it a GOOD thing that they are catching someone.  Shout it out loud.


    Hiding it just means that there is no real deterrent to being caught ... where is the consequence if the guy just quietly goes away, and comes back in a year or two with no one knowing or caring where he has been.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1062 on: July 14, 2014, 12:00 »
    but that is where the PR comes in.   Sponsors make it a GOOD thing that they are catching someone.  Shout it out loud.


    Hiding it just means that there is no real deterrent to being caught ... where is the consequence if the guy just quietly goes away, and comes back in a year or two with no one knowing or caring where he has been.

    Problem is that other sports that never catch anybody is seen as clean by the media/public so catching somebody is a step back from that because if you catch someone that means someone is cheating. There is way too much focus on doping in cycling, even when people don't test positive they are discussed in terms of doping. The Froome thread on this site is a good example. Even with no public shaming there still is a major incentive not to test positive. The financial loss one makes, and when riders come back often times they end up riding for lower teams Miche etc. Also I don't really like public shaming as a punishment, it seems rather medieval and does it really stop doping, after Pantani was caught did he immediately stop doping? did Hamilton? did Ullrich? The only thing this public shaming has resulted in is Pantani killing him self, and the likes of Rasmussen and Santambrogio almost doing the same. 
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1063 on: July 14, 2014, 12:04 »
    But does it stop the NEXT guy from doping?  the young guys coming through - do THEY look at what happens if you get caught and think about whether or not to dope?


    Why is it that doping is acceptable by everyone ... but say ... putting a battery in the bike, or disabling someone elses bike ... is not?   

    The public (and other riders) reactions to other kinds of cheating make it much less acceptable.  The reactions to doping are that 'its ok' - its not considered cheating.

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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1064 on: July 14, 2014, 12:16 »
    But does it stop the NEXT guy from doping?  the young guys coming through - do THEY look at what happens if you get caught and think about whether or not to dope?

    Honestly the getting caught part is not worse than having to live a lie etc. I think that the way former dopers talk about their time doping helps in painting the image that it is impossible to get away with forever and people that dope generally feel terrible about their life.

    Why is it that doping is acceptable by everyone ... but say ... putting a battery in the bike, or disabling someone elses bike ... is not?   

    The public (and other riders) reactions to other kinds of cheating make it much less acceptable.  The reactions to doping are that 'its ok' - its not considered cheating.

    Because people are caught all the time, or seem to be (partly because of the press release) If someone test positive my reaction would not be "This is an outrage" it would be more like "oh well..." because we have seen it so many times before.

    Much like how crossing a red light on foot is acceptable but in a car it is a no go.
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  • M Gee

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1065 on: July 14, 2014, 13:00 »
    It is open, the information is out there, . . .

    It is open and transparent. One can not say it is not. It simply is not shouted from the rooftops. Whether or not shouting it from the rooftops is good or bad, I can not say.

    It could be that, if they are truly serious, they know there will be more adverse findings, so that rather than treating them like they are exceptional - which, you have to admit, was the de rigeur format up until very recently - they want to treat them in a more matter-of-fact manner. Perhaps hoping for less "dopage" negative press events.

    If Cookson gets sufficient negative attention for this new method, he may well change it. He could also be seeking ways to save money internally, and press events cost money. Let the press do some of the leg work, instead of internal staff. Who knows. Let the fuss stew for a bit, and see what Cookson's reaction is.

    One other thought, on punishment - EVERYTHING about a punishment, at least in modern systems, comes down to one word - deterrent. A deterrent for the guilty, and a deterrent for the not-yet-guilty. The only other words that I think are truly definitional are revenge, and stability. Revenge is a human emotion that desires satisfaction, and may have no other practical purpose or result. Stability is the goal of the leadership, and guilty individuals may be removed from the polis to achieve stability. E.g. Socrates (who could also be said to be a victim of revenge motivation).

    Punishment is usually out of proportion to the crime, because the guilty have a skewed curve of perceived reward vs risk. Therefore it takes a large risk to impress on them that there IS a risk. We don't know yet if 2 years is enough - but I think it is more dependent on the testing regimes, and how big the risk is of getting caught at all that will be the biggest variable here. IMO.

    I think our systems have moved past revenge as a factor in dishing out punishment. Even if some of the public have not. The same can not be said of stability. Leaders still act to remove destabilizing influences. At least - when they are aware of them.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1066 on: July 14, 2014, 17:39 »
    Menchov's ban has been totally open and transparent, its impossible to argue otherwise. The UCI publish regularly a list of doping violations. That list is freely accessible, and lists all doping bans, that is totally open. Theres no way any other argument can be made.

    What WASNT open and transparent however, was the initial announcement of proceedings being taken against Menchov for BioPassport violations. That was not published, or announced in any way. Instead he retired.

    But, McQuaid was in charge then, someone not exactly renowned for his openness or his transparency.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1067 on: July 14, 2014, 22:00 »
    Lars Bak unhappy with doping controls, says that how much riders is tested much depends on place of residence. DCU (Danish National Federation) confirms that this is actually an issue, Bak has apparently been tested 17 times this year already.

    http://politiken.dk/sport/ECE2341426/dopingkontrol-ikke-fair-lars-bak-er-testet-17-gange-i-aar/
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  • M Gee

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1068 on: July 15, 2014, 01:47 »
    Lars Bak unhappy with doping controls, says that how much riders is tested much depends on place of residence. DCU (Danish National Federation) confirms that this is actually an issue, Bak has apparently been tested 17 times this year already.

    http://politiken.dk/sport/ECE2341426/dopingkontrol-ikke-fair-lars-bak-er-testet-17-gange-i-aar/

    Forgive me in advance, while I go all val-gurl on ya, even tho it is out-of-sex, not to mention way past my generation. But:

    "17 times? Like, this is a PROBLEM?"

    Listen - I pee several times a day. I can't see any problem EVER collecting pee. I've given blood draws for blood tests as often as once a week. I CAN NOT see any problem in that! Which only leaves the invasion of privacy issues, which are strictly psychological and personal.

    NO SYMPATHY. Not here. Tough (harrrumphh, can't say that here). HTFU.
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  • M Gee

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1069 on: July 15, 2014, 01:59 »
    I don't know where else to post this - but I had a clear thought just a few minutes ago.

    The radio was talking about World Cup going to Russia. Comparing it to past Olympics, particularly the last one - where Russia failed mightily. Move on to the next, Sochi, and Russia succeeds mightily.

    I am NOT saying that Russia did this, but you know, one of the biggest problems about doping, ever since the East Germans started the sports experiments in supplementation, a team/country/individual could BUY a victory. That, to me, is one of the biggest betrayals. 

    If you can buy the victory, I might as well watch the WWE wrestling. Phagh.
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  • AG

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1070 on: July 15, 2014, 03:04 »
    Vino says :hi
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1071 on: July 15, 2014, 08:04 »
    Forgive me in advance, while I go all val-gurl on ya, even tho it is out-of-sex, not to mention way past my generation. But:

    "17 times? Like, this is a PROBLEM?"

    Listen - I pee several times a day. I can't see any problem EVER collecting pee. I've given blood draws for blood tests as often as once a week. I CAN NOT see any problem in that! Which only leaves the invasion of privacy issues, which are strictly psychological and personal.

    NO SYMPATHY. Not here. Tough (harrrumphh, can't say that here). HTFU.
    I  think Bak is pointing out something very important.

    he gets tested 17 times other riders not once in 6 months.

    What he is saying live in a easy to get to place you get tested more, live in a hard to get to place less testing.

    Does not matter the athlete or what results, that is wrong and a big hole or another big hole in the system
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1072 on: July 15, 2014, 08:08 »
    Forgive me in advance, while I go all val-gurl on ya, even tho it is out-of-sex, not to mention way past my generation. But:

    "17 times? Like, this is a PROBLEM?"

    Listen - I pee several times a day. I can't see any problem EVER collecting pee. I've given blood draws for blood tests as often as once a week. I CAN NOT see any problem in that! Which only leaves the invasion of privacy issues, which are strictly psychological and personal.

    NO SYMPATHY. Not here. Tough (harrrumphh, can't say that here). HTFU.

    In case it wasn't clear, (It obviously was not) the point is that others get tested way less, like JSG said, not that he gets tested too much. Basically it is cheaper to test in Lucca and other places where many riders live, which means ADA's will test these riders more often.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1073 on: July 15, 2014, 12:48 »
    1st I think maybe all the uci transparent discussion maybe shoukd go in the uci cookson thread,

    but this appeared on cn

    I think we can do a better job. I think we can update that schedule more effectively but there have been seventy-odd cases since I became UCI president and took over and I don’t think you guys are interested in everyone but I do accept that you are interested in some more than others. We probably have to look at the way we present information to the public. If there is a case that is of public interest, I think we have to announce it in a proactive way rather than in a reactive way as we've done in the past."

    70 cases in what 8 months

    laz how many have you entered?

    Anyway following WADA code =/= open and transparent


     http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cookson-hits-back-over-handling-of-menchov-doping-case


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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1074 on: July 15, 2014, 13:03 »
    I don’t think you guys are interested in everyone
    Yes, Mr. Cookson, we are. Some rider doping at a 2.2 race in Asia or South America is not less important than a WT pro.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1075 on: July 15, 2014, 13:58 »
    Yes, Mr. Cookson, we are. Some rider doping at a 2.2 race in Asia or South America is not less important than a WT pro.

    I am assuming that "you guys" means the press and that is certainly true. The press has little to say about doping outside of the European WT/ProConti scene.

    Reports that do discuss these cases often do so with a view to piquant exoticism, according to the following formula:

    Number of positives proportional to ridiculousness of products proportional to faraway location.

    This is the way it has always been, as long as I have worked with this sort of media reporting and it is one reason I only list Euro cases: the sources elsewhere are frequently unreliable.
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1076 on: July 17, 2014, 11:20 »
    Xenon and Argon gas doping to be banned come September, will be interesting if we see any drop off.

    http://cen.acs.org/articles/92/i23/Doping-Agency-Bans-Xenon-Argon.html
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1077 on: July 17, 2014, 11:29 »
    Just in time for the winter season, at least Russia will be a bit unhappy
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #1079 on: July 19, 2014, 09:04 »
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/support-for-armstrong-looks-like-a-sport-going-into-denial-30443701.html

    So, a journo from the country of Catholics wants no forgiveness. :D He has a point, I suppose, but I think we are still a long way from an Armstrong rehabilitation.
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