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Re: Darkside - General news
« Reply #2010 on: April 16, 2019, 09:44 »
And this guy was pack -fill ! 

no, he's a multiple WT stage winner, including the Tour de France. I'd say it's actually the biggest name caught since Iglinskiy, five years ago or so.
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    Joelsim

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2011 on: April 16, 2019, 10:06 »
    The thing with EPO is you can’t use an inhaler or a contaminated Pharmacy weighing scale as an excuse.
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  • riding too slowly

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2012 on: April 16, 2019, 10:48 »
    no, he's a multiple WT stage winner, including the Tour de France. I'd say it's actually the biggest name caught since Iglinskiy, five years ago or so.

    Thanks for the correction  - I'm getting out of touch but had not realised just by how much !  I must be so jaded now with the wheel going round. I didn't watch any of the Paris Roubaix - for the second year now.

    Whilst I did not do my homework on Jarlinson I have just had a look at who else is a DS at Trek.  De Jongh and Baffi on the men's side are an exact match for Tuetenberg and Bronzini on the women's side.  Nobody could be in any doubt about what this team is about.  Baffi - Mapei Quick Step and US Postal. What better lineage would be possible for a DS that you want to ensure "results" ?

    And as you say Joelism with EPO, no matter what hot shot legal team you get or dodgy scientitists coming up with a "sceintific study" on the use of Vicks-chesty-rub on the haematocrit of dogs, there is nowhere to go.  We are back with "that boot full of EPO my wife was importing in her car was for her mother who is poorly" being the best these guys will be able to muster.  At least then, nobody believed them.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Drummer Boy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2014 on: May 12, 2019, 04:39 »
    OK, so we probably don't need an updated "2019 Giro" thread all its own, but...

    One has to ponder: Just what, exactly, are we witnessing here?

    (Asking for a Slovenian friend... :-x)
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  • t-72

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2015 on: May 12, 2019, 08:24 »
    I don´t think it was doping - or to put it that way: these results are not surprising to me, because of the stage similarity with the Bergen worlds (2017) and comparing those results. The big change is actually Dumoulin, but he said, a few days before the race that he wasn´t in the same good shape as in the two last years. The results shows he might have been quite honest about that.
    The other podium contender from Bergen was Roglic, and the giro is his main goal this year. He has won every race he has entered this year so far, and obviously he is on top of his form curve. He has also improved his general performance level gradually, although he was good already in Bergen.

    The rest of the 30 secs behind group are mostly solid GC contenders, but Rogla can obviously beat them - by a wide margin - on an ITT over his favored terrain. The surprise should be if Roglic was there in the bunch with Lopez and Nibali. I mean, they are good, but Roglic has been better at the time trial since day 1. He could have become / can become world champion, Nibali and Lopez can’t.

    Actually I think Yates’ results are more surprising but nothing really suspicious about it in itself either, just more remarkable.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2016 on: May 12, 2019, 18:41 »
    He has won every race he has entered this year so far...

    That's what stirs my curiosity. I'm just trying to keep a realistic perspective in this sport of ours.
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  • rote_laterne

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2017 on: May 12, 2019, 20:44 »
    Froome's Giro performance last year was a real eye-opener for me again. I lost any hope there might be clean performances in cycling and therefore I really lost interest in the sport. I feel the same this year, only that Roglic and Yates are more likeable than Froome. That being said I prefer a Slovenian Giro winner who at least is talented over Froome. But I'm biased.
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  • M Gee

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2018 on: May 13, 2019, 17:43 »
    Seems like there are a couple of different threads developing, a few years too late as always but which could still affect some with longer associations with the sport. Not absolutely sure about the source but has been accurate before.
    So, a number of possible solutions to your hints, yes? I see Danilo Hondo in the news today. Dillashaw was news. And a couple of cycling lesser names who I don't think fit your hinted at specs.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2019 on: May 14, 2019, 12:25 »
    Molano has been suspended by UAE after internal testing showed some oddities.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2020 on: May 16, 2019, 19:52 »
    So, a number of possible solutions to your hints, yes? I see Danilo Hondo in the news today. Dillashaw was news. And a couple of cycling lesser names who I don't think fit your hinted at specs.

    I think we should keep an eye on the Slovenia connection, then the two threads I mentioned above will converge. From what I understand, there should be a bit more there than what the German and Austrian authorities have dug up so far, or at least what we have been told of it. Some journos do appear to be on to it already but they can only drop hints for the moment.

    https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2019/05/16/dopage-la-slovenie-dans-l-il-du-cyclone-aderlass_5462878_3242.html (FR)
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    M Gee

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2021 on: May 17, 2019, 01:29 »
    I think we should keep an eye on the Slovenia connection, then the two threads I mentioned above will converge. From what I understand, there should be a bit more there than what the German and Austrian authorities have dug up so far, or at least what we have been told of it. Some journos do appear to be on to it already but they can only drop hints for the moment.

    https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2019/05/16/dopage-la-slovenie-dans-l-il-du-cyclone-aderlass_5462878_3242.html (FR)
    Oh, dear. I do hope Roglic isn't involved. The other aspect of this that bothers me is the involvement of Bahrain-Merida. I like Nibbles, and I've always been willing to take his statements (of non-involvement in dopage) at face value.

    Nice article, by the way. Lots of names in there.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2022 on: May 17, 2019, 08:37 »
    Oh, dear. I do hope Roglic isn't involved. The other aspect of this that bothers me is the involvement of Bahrain-Merida. I like Nibbles, and I've always been willing to take his statements (of non-involvement in dopage) at face value.

    Nice article, by the way. Lots of names in there.

     I wouldn't worry about connecting those dots, just yet.  After putting their names in that piece, Lemonde does just about manage to point out that that there is nothing to link Slovenia's big three. Pretty standard "hit and hope" journalism, these days.

     As this is a French newspaper, the key phrase for me was: "Slovenia is however not rich of a great cycling culture..."
    The French are just not able to rationalize their change of fortune over the past 30 years, because of the pre-conception that things cannot, or must not change.
    During the same period, exactly the same thing happened with their wine industry; desperately clinging to tradition, constantly citing one word: "terroir", as the reason that new wine producing countries would never be able to compete..........

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    LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2023 on: May 17, 2019, 11:27 »
    As this is a French newspaper, the key phrase for me was: "Slovenia is however not rich of a great cycling culture..."
    The French are just not able to rationalize their change of fortune over the past 30 years, because of the pre-conception that things cannot, or must not change.
    During the same period, exactly the same thing happened with their wine industry; desperately clinging to tradition, constantly citing one word: "terroir", as the reason that new wine producing countries would never be able to compete..........
    And it's actually the total opposite that's true. Slovenia has an incredibly rich cycling culture, with a long history dating back to the 1940s. Throughout the decades, Slovenia supplied a disproportionately large percentage of Jugoslavian cyclists who very much held their own in the amateur races.
    In fact, the very first winner of the Peace Race, August Prosinek, was born in Slovenia (he moved to Zagreb at the age of 14 after his father's death).

    And since the 1990s, Slovenia has had a great number of pro cyclists, certainly more than you could expect from a country of two million inhabitants.

    "Not rich of a great cycling culture" ... :fp
    It's that old (and very French) arrogance of "I haven't heard about it, so it doesn't exist", and it does my head in. :angry

    Oh, dear. I do hope Roglic isn't involved. The other aspect of this that bothers me is the involvement of Bahrain-Merida. I like Nibbles, and I've always been willing to take his statements (of non-involvement in dopage) at face value.

    Nice article, by the way. Lots of names in there.
    Bahrain-Merida is effectively a Slovenian/Croatian team run with Bahraini money and an Italian star rider (plus his sizable entourage).
    Roglic - who knows. Slovenia isn't a big country, so drawing a line from Božič and Bole to him comes easy. That in itself isn't much of a dot to connect - but if you combine it with Jumbo-Visma being the same entity as Rabobank, and Mark Schmidt is basically the successor of Stefan Matschiner who 'serviced' Michael Rasmussen and others ... :shh
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    L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2024 on: May 17, 2019, 11:55 »
    It's not about the country as such, it's about the connections that are using it. Anyone can see that what is going on here has few borders. I think Guillou knows the score but he is limited in what he can publish.
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2025 on: May 21, 2019, 15:25 »
    Roglic's former #jumbo team mate Stef Clement is "surprised" about the "giant steps" as well, and "that it is still possible to stand out so far". "Clement thinks it's striking that there are no question about the performances of Roglic, and thinks that this has to do with the fact that the Slovenian rides for a Dutch team. 'If this boy was riding for UAE, Katyusha or Astana, people would look at it differently'."

    https://www.ad.nl/dossier-giro-d-italia/oud-ploegmaat-clement-doet-opvallende-uitspraken-over-roglic~ab3486ffd/
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2026 on: May 21, 2019, 16:25 »
    I think we should keep an eye on the Slovenia connection.

    I know not of what you speak.  :-x



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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2028 on: May 21, 2019, 17:59 »
     In simplest terms: Imagine how you would feel if Roglic were riding for Sky/Ineos?
    What would you be thinking, watching this Giro?
    Basically, he calls into question as to why double standards are applied, in terms of teams being viewed as potentially clean or potentially dirty.

    Anyhow, the whole article via google:

    The good performance of Primoz Roglic is not a reason for everyone to look at the Slovenian leader of Jumbo-Visma with admiration. Former teammate Stef Clement has his doubts about it.
    Roglic proved to be the best this year in all stage races in which he started, and in the current Giro d’Italia he has already made a huge gap with his direct competitors after one week. "Those are not normal steps, but giant steps!", Says Clement at the NOS in the Sportforum.

    "Of course it surprises me," continues the 36-year-old Brabander. "You don't have to speculate about Roglic, but you also have to look at Simon Yates and Vincenzo Nibali, who are therefore just minutes away. These are riders who have already won a big lap. What do those men do wrong? Why can't the rest come along? I am surprised that it is still possible to stand out so far. Because the knowledge seems to be the same throughout the peloton and the marginal gains do not express themselves in minutes ahead. "
    Clement thinks it is striking that Roglic's performance is not questioned, and thinks that this has to do with the fact that the Slovenian rides for a Dutch team. "If this boy had driven at UAE, Katyusha or Astana, we would have had a very different idea."

    "I think we should look at it in the same way," Clement explains. ,, It is not the case that if you cycle with Richard Plugge (team boss Jumbo-Visma, ed.), That everything is just cake and egg. I considered Jarlinson Pantano to be a good friend, but a few weeks ago he just got caught at Trek-Segafredo, a team we don't think about. I don't put my hand in the fire for anyone. "

    Clement, meanwhile stopped as a rider, rode the last two years of his career with Roglic with the Dutch team. De Brabander is still under contract with Jumbo-Visma.
     Jumbo-Visma team leader Addy Engels finds Clement's statements unfortunate. "I understand what Stef means, but it could be that Primoz is put in a bad light this way." Engels reacted at Eurosport.

    "As a team, we do everything we can to facilitate our riders in the best possible way in every area to prevent them from doing things that they are not allowed to do," Engels said. ,, It is precisely this environment that made Primoz decide to choose us. As an insider, Stef could also have explained how we work as a team. For me, Primoz does not make abnormal progression. It is a storm in a glass of water, but in such a round something like that can become much bigger than it is. We don't feel like it. "

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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2029 on: May 22, 2019, 20:00 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bahrain-meridas-milan-erzen-under-uci-investigation-for-doping-links/

    Quote
    The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) is investigating a Slovenian cycling connection to the Operation Aderlass blood doping ring, with Milan Eržen, the current managing director at Bahrain-Merida, at the centre of their attention.

    The UCI has confirmed to Cyclingnews that since 2015 it has been carefully following the activities of several Slovenian individuals, including riders, rider support personnel and team management staff for potential roles in a number of different investigations, even before Operation Aderlass emerged.

    #bahrain mugwump Milan Eržen under investigation.
    And before he set up the WT team, he was manager/DS of #adria Adria Mobil from 2007 to 2013 - a team that had not only Bole and Đurasek in its ranks, but also a.o. Kišerlovski, Kump, Haller, Rogina, Per, Novak, and ... Roglič.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2030 on: May 22, 2019, 21:09 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bahrain-meridas-milan-erzen-under-uci-investigation-for-doping-links/

    #bahrain mugwump Milan Eržen under investigation.
    And before he set up the WT team, he was manager/DS of #adria Adria Mobil from 2007 to 2013 - a team that had not only Bole and Đurasek in its ranks, but also a.o. Kišerlovski, Kump, Haller, Rogina, Per, Novak, and ... Roglič.

    The article from Le Monde this evening goes a bit further. Erzen allegedly established contact with Schmidt via a Croatian intermediary and made enquiries about buying a centrifuge.

    https://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2019/05/22/le-patron-de-l-equipe-cycliste-bahrein-merida-cite-dans-une-affaire-de-dopage_5465698_3242.html (FR)

    As I wrote above, this is not really about Slovenia even if it may eventually concern a number of Slovenians. It is about having the resources and opportunity to engage in the sort of sophisticated activity that we have seen before. Only this time, if things work out far enough, the whole business will unravel a lot quicker than most of our historical precedents because of a near-accidental broadside caused by having too many external dependencies.

    If it is true that the UCI has been investigating individuals for some years, as it was keen to point out to CN, then what is noteworthy there is that it still took Aderlass to really move things forward when earlier revelations, which were exclusively in the hands of the UCI, failed to develop as they could or should have. There are at least two examples of investigations in the last few years that were prematurely closed because of the fragility of the sport and that the lack of serious consequences for individuals guaranteed zero collaboration anyway.
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  • t-72

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2031 on: May 22, 2019, 22:12 »
    And before he set up the WT team, he was manager/DS of #adria Adria Mobil from 2007 to 2013 - a team that had not only Bole and Đurasek in its ranks, but also a.o. Kišerlovski, Kump, Haller, Rogina, Per, Novak, and ... Roglič.

    Roglic's 2013 results are nothing to speak of, it wasn't until 2014 he started racing well:

    2013: typical 1st year results
    2014: Sibiu tour - 3rd GC (can probably be classified as a breakthrough, but looking at the list behind him, it wasn't that hard to break either....)
    2015: Won Tour of Slovenia, Tour of Azerbajdzan, 2nd in Tour of Croatia
    2016: Won Slovenian ITT nationals, Chianti ITT in Giro d'Italia - also 2nd in Apeldoorn ITT, 2nd on Montjuic stage of Catalunya
    2017: 2nd in world championships ITT (Bergen), stage win in TdF - Serre Chevalier town finish after Col de Fer, Telegraph, Galibier, stage win (ITT) in Romandie, 2 stage wins in Itzulia - one ITT and one road stage.
    2018:  4th in GC + Stage win TdF,  GC win in Romandie, GC win + 1 stage win in Itzulia,  stage win in Tirreno-Adriatico
    2019 so far: GC win UAE tour, GC win Tirreno-Adriatico, GC win Tour de Romandie, 2 x ITT stage win in Giro d'Italia and a decent grip on the Senza Fine after 11 stages with more or less all the climbing stages remaining.

    Assuming that Roglic started out with the head, heart, lungs and legs of a top athlete, his progression from 2013 to 2018 must be about as normal as you can get it? Not saying that oxygen-vector doping couldn't have helped, just pointing out that there's a long and gradual progress, that can reflect a normal progress for a cyclist that has been developing  at a slightly higher age than most of his competitors due to his late start in the sport. For those that have seen him as a  ski jumper, super skinny and as a result perhaps looking quite a bit younger than his years) it is also noticeable that contrary to other cyclists that force themselves to slim down to get in shape for cycling, Roglic has actually put on weight. Part of the performance curve (the good ITTs in particular) must simply be linked to Roglic getting stronger. He climbs with a moderate RPM of a strong rider, not the high-RPM mixmasterlegs of Chris Froome.

    Just pointing out that there can be natural explanations for Roglic the phenomenon as the "guilt by association" hints and allegations that are being thrown around at all the Slovenians these days actually are backed by findings, but only for some riders - and not for others. Let me also remind you that if all the riders that at one point was active in the team of a former or still doping team leader were guilty there wouldn't be many left for racing at world tour level. It is not unique that the team leader of Bahrain-Merida at some point, now several years already in the past, made inquiries about purchasing medical equipment aimed at blood doping.  It doesn't imply that all the riders on their teams have doped and/or are doping.

    The extraordinary season of Roglic is 2019, not 2013-2018 - but then again, riders in contention for winning GC in a grand tour are never   normal. His long form top does remind me of Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome ca 2011-2013 though...n

    One of Roglic's winning skills is descending, and those skills are not as easily acquired by chemical means, although when it comes to Matej Mohoric (a top slovenian rider that did not develop at Adria Mobil but currently rides for Bahrain-Merida, it is obvious that significant amounts of LSD must be involved as he seems to approach every little and large downhill completely convinced that he can fly.   :angel
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2032 on: May 23, 2019, 03:01 »
    the lack of serious consequences for individuals guaranteed zero collaboration anyway.

    Between whom? :slow

    I'm getting a bit lost in the weeds here.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2033 on: May 23, 2019, 11:05 »
    Between whom? :slow

    I'm getting a bit lost in the weeds here.

    The relevant part is this:

    Quote from: CN article
    The UCI has confirmed to Cyclingnews that since 2015 it has been carefully following the activities of several Slovenian individuals, including riders, rider support personnel and team management staff for potential roles in a number of different investigations, even before Operation Aderlass emerged.

    Here's what I think:

    If the conditions that supposedly protect against institutional doping (e.g. ethics requirements) can be legally challenged (i.e. deep pockets, broad connections) the only useful strategy left for a sports authority against a committed organisation is targeted testing. This is the idea that you can still, in an era of the primacy of brand, reputation and appearances, bring about enough consequences to diminish current and future sponsorship opportunities or get enough dirt while trying. The idea that, instead of testing the written conditions that give you your authority, you instead limit, inhibit and, if you're really successful, bring permanent disgrace to a problem organisation while avoiding challenges to your authority.

    This is a long and expensive war and it might not involve an honest, transparent sort of strategy but it can be fought with the only weapon that's still sharp and can actually do damage to those behind the riders, while you acknowledge that the riders themselves will always be collateral damage.

    So you identify a problem team and put the heat on its riders. If one pings then you try to roll him. If he figures he's not done with the sport then probably he won't talk (zero collaboration). So you target a couple more and perhaps you can even suspend the team. Eventually, if the team still won't compromise, its poor record and ethics is no longer so difficult to prove. If that were the strategy in play, you would have to wait and see if it could be scaled up from the lower divisions where you've put a couple of teams out of business, but after those successful test cases that could happen. Equally you have to deal with evolution: riders change teams, teams change sponsors, and so on.

    What I think is that Aderlass was an unexpected filip that could make things a bit easier where earlier efforts didn't work out due to the evolution of the sport (two teams in the recent past). Aderlass is not necessarily bad news for everyone.
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  • « Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 15:18 by L'arri »

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2035 on: May 26, 2019, 16:37 »
    :o

    https://twitter.com/raffilpt/status/1131863093334695936

    this mist be a mistake I guess :yum

    So there's a problem here. Not for the first time, the media over on the Iberian peninsula have got it wrong. Or rather, not so much that the source is wrong but rather something is rotten with the national authority because there is an official rebuttal.

    This happened already with a couple of other cases: a premature announcement that later turned out to be, if not exactly untrue, then at least still under review. We are still awaiting outcomes for César Fonte, Vicente Garcia de Mateos and Rui Vinhas the original events for whom date back to last year.

    As a result, it is not necessarily true that Alarcon and Marque are off the hook but rather that they are not (yet) officially in trouble. You can call it o purgatório.
  • ReplyReply


  • Drummer Boy

    • Classics Winner
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2037 on: June 14, 2019, 12:56 »
    I haven't had time to respond with the appropriate level of hilarity to the Cobo "news," but if I were the type of person who was prone to rolling on the floor and laughing my ass off, such a series of events would certainly be unfolding now. When I get a chance, there are a few specific things I want to dig up.


    It's funny that there's no designated Cobo thread, but searching on his name has yielded some amusing remarks about him over the years.
     :D

    This is an interesting development from the UCI though.

    So...who is next?  :-x
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  • al_pacino

    • Domestic Rider
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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2038 on: June 14, 2019, 13:00 »
    The Cobo news can't exactly be a shock but can anyone explain the timing?
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Darkside - General news
    « Reply #2039 on: June 14, 2019, 14:45 »
    I haven't had time to respond with the appropriate level of hilarity to the Cobo "news," but if I were the type of person who was prone to rolling on the floor and laughing my ass off, such a series of events would certainly be unfolding now. When I get a chance, there are a few specific things I want to dig up.


    It's funny that there's no designated Cobo thread, but searching on his name has yielded some amusing remarks about him over the years.
     :D

    This is an interesting development from the UCI though.

    So...who is next?  :-x

    Same climb, 2 years later........................
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