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Dim

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Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
« on: March 11, 2013, 16:18 »
This is probably very dangerous territory, we all know that only riders we dont like dope, so Sky dope, Radioshack dope, but nice guys like Boonen, Fabian and Sagan.. no no...

Sagan is definately incredibly talented, one of the best of his generation, but it the last week..

Hes outsprinted former World Champion Mark Cavendish and Andrei Greipel in a sprint
And now hes going in breakaways with Nibali, and Rodriguez, both Grand Tour multi stage winners, and putting time into Contador, Froome, Horner etc..

If that was Porte or Froome, the allegations would be flying left right and centre
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 16:23 »
    Didn't see anything suspicious. He climbed with Nibali and Purito, who are both obviously clean. So no reason Sagan should be doped. Also, Sagan earned a lot of credit for helping Nibali win T-A. Think it's just a question of all the obvious dopers (Sky, Contador, Kwiatkowski, Santambroggio, Horner...) running out of blood bags towards the end of this race, allowing the clean riders to come forward and win.

    See, a reasonable explanation like this makes far more sense than instantly throwing accusations around. Cynical bastards, all of you.
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  • jobiwan

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 16:24 »
    Well, I guess the same argument used for Porte could be used here.
    He's shown this potential from an early age.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 16:26 »
    This is probably very dangerous territory, we all know that only riders we dont like dope, so Sky dope, Radioshack dope, but nice guys like Boonen, Fabian and Sagan.. no no...

    Really confused about this.

    Which posters said they think Sky are dirty but Boonen and Cancellara clean?
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Dim

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 16:27 »
    Really confused about this.

    Which posters said they think Sky are dirty but Boonen and Cancellara clean?

    im working with general (twitter) logic.. hate them, dirty, like them, clean (or just dont talk about it)
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #5 on: March 11, 2013, 16:27 »
    im working with twitter logic.. hate them, dirty, like them, clean (or just dont talk about it)

    Also Cancellara is part of Radioshack ;)
    Quote
    so Sky dope, Radioshack dope, but nice guys like Boonen, Fabian and Sagan.. no no.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #6 on: March 11, 2013, 16:30 »
    Didn't see anything suspicious. He climbed with Nibali and Purito, who are both obviously clean. So no reason Sagan should be doped. Also, Sagan earned a lot of credit for helping Nibali win T-A. Think it's just a question of all the obvious dopers (Sky, Contador, Kwiatkowski, Santambroggio, Horner...) running out of blood bags towards the end of this race, allowing the clean riders to come forward and win.


    sometimes, thank you isnt enough..

    genius :D
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #7 on: March 11, 2013, 16:33 »
    Well, I guess the same argument used for Porte could be used here.
    He's shown this potential from an early age.
    +1

    And as with Porte, there's not much suspicious activity to connect Sagan directly to. And he stayed put rather than going to an ethically suspect Eastern European team.
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  • Blackbandit222

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #8 on: March 11, 2013, 16:33 »
    You know my vote.  :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

    Is Sagan running for any offices & am I eligible to vote.

    I need to change my vote for most amount of wins per season.
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  • Sagan supporter.

    The Hitch

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #9 on: March 11, 2013, 16:36 »
    Well, I guess the same argument used for Porte could be used here.
    He's shown this potential from an early age.

    You mean the opposite argument? Porte did not show potential from an early age.

    but dont know if it applies to Sagan either because he was already a world beater from an early age.


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  • jobiwan

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #10 on: March 11, 2013, 16:39 »
    You mean the opposite argument? Porte did not show potential from an early age.

    but dont know if it applies to Sagan either because he was already a world beater from an early age.

    Well, it's the argument Dim used in the Sky thread yesterday...  :D
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  • Blackbandit222

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #11 on: March 11, 2013, 16:42 »
    SAGAN = EBH + PED's + a super competitive/killer state of mind........probably also drug induced
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  • cj2002

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #12 on: March 11, 2013, 16:48 »
    im working with general (twitter) logic.. hate them, dirty, like them, clean (or just dont talk about it)

    I think the combination of a) much higher exposure for road cycling, b) much greater focus on doping/dopers and c) Twitter allows people a soapbox for their ill-informed/partisan views without any need to back-up anything they allege with even the merest strand of logic.

    Sagan wins his first few races and he's the next big thing... and of course, the next big thing has always been clean (:fp). Then he wins an incredibly difficult stage in which the "big favourites" are several seconds back and suddenly he's dirty?

    The same logic is used on Contador. He dominates GTs, therefore he's dirty. He gets beaten by people who - some number of months or years ago - he would have destroyed and suddenly he's clean?

    I'm not suggesting anything either way. Both of them are very entertaining riders, throw in to the mix Purito, Froome and Nibali on form and the GTs this year will be fabulous. And that is good for me. I'm not burying my head in the sand, but the modern cycling "fan" and his/her immediate link of every performance to a presence/absence of PEDs is starting to pee me off.

    End of rant, as you were...
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    Blackbandit222

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #13 on: March 11, 2013, 16:50 »
    They all doped & LA won 7 TDF & Sagan wins everything else

    Talk about Partisan; yesterday I was thinking we need a Police raid in Tenerife!!!
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  • Caruut

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #14 on: March 11, 2013, 17:08 »
    I would assume he is on about the same level of drug taking as most other top riders. Whenever I see a thread of this sort I never know whether the real question is "Does he take banned substances?" (to which my answer is usually "yes") or "Is his quality as a result of banned substances?" (a more interesting question with more interesting answers).

    I think Sagan is probably taking drugs. I usually take an economist's view to whether an athlete can be dominating due to drugs; it is not possible to dominate due to drugs long term without some kind of outside help. If it were that easy, everyone would do it. You might be able to flourish for a season, maybe two, but sooner or later other people will discover and replicate your edge. Only by establishing a monopoly can you maintain drug-dependent dominance over the long term. Simply put, I will believe that someone is on drugs by the simple fact that they are in professional cycling; sad but true. I will believe that one stellar season or hugely variable results are mainly based on the usage of drugs. It is asking to much for me to believe that an entire successful career is due to drugs without some kind of external factor of protection or monopoly, like Lance's protection from the UCI and monopoly on Ferrari.

    Given that he's from Slovakia I can't see the UCI giving him stupid levels of protection, since I doubt they are willing to risk much for expanding into the Slovakian market; the potential rewards for expansion into the US and UK are much greater. He has also had success across a number of disciplines in the junior categories (1st MTB JWC, 2nd CX JWC, 2nd PR Espoirs), and quickly established himself in the seniors, winning races in his first senior year in 2009 with an amateur team and then making the step up in his first year in the WT. He's not had a year which was vastly out of the trajectory of a future superstar in his career yet, in my opinion.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #15 on: March 11, 2013, 17:12 »
    This is probably very dangerous territory, we all know that only riders we dont like dope, so Sky dope, Radioshack dope, but nice guys like Boonen, Fabian and Sagan.. no no...

    Sagan is definately incredibly talented, one of the best of his generation, but it the last week..

    Hes outsprinted former World Champion Mark Cavendish and Andrei Greipel in a sprint
    And now hes going in breakaways with Nibali, and Rodriguez, both Grand Tour multi stage winners, and putting time into Contador, Froome, Horner etc..

    If that was Porte or Froome, the allegations would be flying left right and centre

    this was a hilly stage, it's not strange at all that he puts time into Alberto, Froome and Papy horner
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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #16 on: March 11, 2013, 17:22 »
    yeah, I think he has proven before that he is good on short climbs, and he was obviously having difficulties during today's stage as well - in the end he managed to bridge the gap to Nibali in the descent, where he is propably a class of his own, not by going uphill.

    Additionally, he is preparing for the classics season, one of his highlights of the season will take place in a couple of days, while Nibali's will be in 2 month time and Froome's in 4. I'm not saying he is not suspicous at all, but today guys like Roelandts and Hushovd finished less than one minute down and I'd always expect him to put a minute into them on a stage like this.
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  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    Kvinto

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #17 on: March 11, 2013, 17:39 »
    As far as he doesn't resort to asserting his image by writing "I'm clean" on every fence I don't care
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    Dancing on the Pedals

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #18 on: March 11, 2013, 17:43 »
    I'm not burying my head in the sand, but the modern cycling "fan" and his/her immediate link of every performance to a presence/absence of PEDs is starting to pee me off.
    End of rant, as you were...

    I subscribe to this.  No idea whether Sagan is clean or not, so in this instance, until I see rumours/evidence and so on that suggest he's not clean, for once I'd like to appreciate a phenomenally talented cyclist for just that.  Yes, I may be being naive ad stupid in doing this, but accusing every pro left, right, and centre is tiring and only washes away any and all enjoyment for the sport.  Yes doping has (and unfortunately still does) played a significant role in cycling, meaning that suspicion will always be there, but how can the sport ever move forward if every time someone wins, the default reaction is, 'he's won, therefore must be doped'?  By that logic, no winning rider can be clean, so we might as well all give up on the sport now. 
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    L'arri

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #19 on: March 11, 2013, 19:21 »
    Nah he's protected by the UCI, as he rides for an American team.

    I reckon he is too because he's already part of the nu-cycling narrative. Sagan goes down, marketing all that youthful vigour goes down. Long as he doesn't turn into a brat, he's good to get away with pretty much anything.
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    mew

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #20 on: March 11, 2013, 19:37 »
    My feeling is that probably most or all of the top 50 at least riders are doing something.
    Where it cuts it for me in acceptable behavior is the way they carry themselves....

    oversized ego..
    bad mouthing other riders as dirty when they themselves are prolly the same.
    respectful way of riding and/or style of being a positive part of the peloton..

    for me it's evolved that if I like the riders' attitude or they seem to be a good guy and ride with class and panache then I generally like them.  :cool:

    I like Sagan..! he doesn't seem to take himself too seriously  :D
    ..AND he's fun to watch
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  • esafosfina

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #21 on: March 11, 2013, 20:43 »
    I doubt he's 'paniagua'... however, it depends on the very fine line between what's acceptable and what isn't... happy to be proven incorrect as I admire the guy's panache!
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  • "Sturgess, don't you dare get off that bike" - Sean Kelly, Nokere, 1989.

    Arb

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #22 on: March 12, 2013, 00:48 »
    Of course,

    What you have to remember though is that he's on track to do what none of the thousands of dopers in the last 25 years have managed. That he probably dopes in no way invalidates the fact that he's an unbelievable specimen.
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  • mew

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #23 on: March 12, 2013, 01:08 »
    he is a caricature of himself... :D
    the Saganator
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  • Rodman1_r2

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #24 on: March 12, 2013, 09:42 »
     “performance analysis will never constitute proof.  Let me repeat that - performance analysis will never constitute proof.  Put differently, in case you missed it - you cannot analyze someone's performance, be it their age, their improvement, their splits, and infer that they are doping based solely on these observations.  Why?  Because performance is too complex, and we have neither the sensitivity nor the reliability to make a strong conclusion.” - Ross Tucker, (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/london-day-5-tall-and-talented.html)

    Just watching a race it's impossible to prove whether someone is doping. What happens on the road can be suspicious, but it's impossible to prove beyond doubt. Even if you have direct measurement of their power output, that does not constitute proof; even then, the further outside a certain range the more suspicious and damning that evidence becomes, but it does not constitute proof. Sagan winning races doesn't prove anything - people were winning events in Greece 2000 years ago, but it doesn't mean they were blood doping, or using testosterone.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #25 on: March 12, 2013, 09:58 »
    “performance analysis will never constitute proof.  Let me repeat that - performance analysis will never constitute proof.  Put differently, in case you missed it - you cannot analyze someone's performance, be it their age, their improvement, their splits, and infer that they are doping based solely on these observations.  Why?  Because performance is too complex, and we have neither the sensitivity nor the reliability to make a strong conclusion.” - Ross Tucker, (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/london-day-5-tall-and-talented.html)

    Just watching a race it's impossible to prove whether someone is doping. What happens on the road can be suspicious, but it's impossible to prove beyond doubt. Even if you have direct measurement of their power output, that does not constitute proof; even then, the further outside a certain range the more suspicious and damning that evidence becomes, but it does not constitute proof. Sagan winning races doesn't prove anything - people were winning events in Greece 2000 years ago, but it doesn't mean they were blood doping, or using testosterone.

    welcome to Velorooms Rodman
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

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    benotti69

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #26 on: March 12, 2013, 10:52 »
    “performance analysis will never constitute proof.  Let me repeat that - performance analysis will never constitute proof.  Put differently, in case you missed it - you cannot analyze someone's performance, be it their age, their improvement, their splits, and infer that they are doping based solely on these observations.  Why?  Because performance is too complex, and we have neither the sensitivity nor the reliability to make a strong conclusion.” - Ross Tucker, (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/london-day-5-tall-and-talented.html)

    Just watching a race it's impossible to prove whether someone is doping. What happens on the road can be suspicious, but it's impossible to prove beyond doubt. Even if you have direct measurement of their power output, that does not constitute proof; even then, the further outside a certain range the more suspicious and damning that evidence becomes, but it does not constitute proof. Sagan winning races doesn't prove anything - people were winning events in Greece 2000 years ago, but it doesn't mean they were blood doping, or using testosterone.

    Forums are not a place to prove anything.

    They are places to express opinions, engange in debate and discussion.

    The last 25 years of the sport is dope riddled. Time the riders, teams and the sport as a whole proved they and it is clean to the fans.

    Sagan is a doper, imo.
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    Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #27 on: March 12, 2013, 10:56 »
    “performance analysis will never constitute proof.  Let me repeat that - performance analysis will never constitute proof.  Put differently, in case you missed it - you cannot analyze someone's performance, be it their age, their improvement, their splits, and infer that they are doping based solely on these observations.  Why?  Because performance is too complex, and we have neither the sensitivity nor the reliability to make a strong conclusion.” - Ross Tucker, (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/london-day-5-tall-and-talented.html)

    Just watching a race it's impossible to prove whether someone is doping. What happens on the road can be suspicious, but it's impossible to prove beyond doubt. Even if you have direct measurement of their power output, that does not constitute proof; even then, the further outside a certain range the more suspicious and damning that evidence becomes, but it does not constitute proof. Sagan winning races doesn't prove anything - people were winning events in Greece 2000 years ago, but it doesn't mean they were blood doping, or using testosterone.
    Welcome from me too.

    It's interesting, to me at any rate, that we appear to require a greater level of certainty to convict an athlete of doping than we need to convict a murderer of murdering, where we just need a level of certainty 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

    For me that would mean that if performances reached such a level that scientists believed they were borderline not possible without some external boost, it would be up to the athlete to prove they were clean.
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  • Zam

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #28 on: March 12, 2013, 13:06 »
    of course he is clean basso will make sure to keep him clea
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #29 on: March 12, 2013, 13:14 »
    my fascination is less with wether sagan is doping, but more how we interpret performance ourselves, if rider x puts in a certain performance we are suspicious, if rider y puts in a similar performance we are less suspicious, if rider x did not show that form in 2009 it says one thing, if rider y burst onto the scene all of a sudden in 2010 it shows another.
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