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just some guy

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Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2013, 19:57 »
I thought JB moved the wife and kid to London ?
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

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    esafosfina

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #61 on: April 19, 2013, 20:24 »
    I thought JB moved the wife and kid to London ?

    Yep, he stayed in Spain...!  ;)
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  • "Sturgess, don't you dare get off that bike" - Sean Kelly, Nokere, 1989.

    Dim

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #62 on: April 19, 2013, 21:17 »
    I thought JB moved the wife and kid to London ?

    He did, but he still has a house in Spain.. him and Eva are there from time to time..
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  • killswitch

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #63 on: April 19, 2013, 23:45 »
    He did, but he still has a house in Spain.. him and Eva are there from time to time..
    Has he gotten a degree in gynecology in the meantime? There's probably a shortage of/demand for such specialists in Spain now.  :rolleye
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    Rodman1_r2

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #64 on: July 03, 2013, 06:41 »
    Also, interestingly: 15-20 minutes at a max effort is about the duration for the upper end of lactate threshold, and the low end of VO2 max - and it is said that the long climbs, 30-45+ minutes, are done at 88.75% to 85% of VO2 max,
    so if you take Horner's 6.7W/Kg * 0.8875 = 5.94 W/Kg; 6.7 * 0.85 = 5.695 W/Kg. Horner rode the 2010 Tourmalet at 5.6W/Kg for 52 minutes (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07/power-from-tourmalet-6wkg-anyone.html), good enough to get him top 10 in the Tour, and Palomar Mountain in about 51 minutes in 2012 one week before the Tour at about 5.56-5.61 W/Kg (http://app.strava.com/activities/11643182#201613766).


    Yeah, I don't know or remember where I got 88.75% of VO2 max on long climbs. That was a mistake. My brain was not working at the time, I was trying to say 87.5%. Ross Tucker over at sportsscientists.com makes estimates of VO2 max using two different numbers, 90% and 85%, and says that "In reality, a good level cyclist will ride at 85% of maximum" and  "I also maintain that a Tour rider, on the final climb of the day, will be closer to 85% than 90%, given that they've been riding for five hours.  However, this assumption is debatable." - (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07/cycling-performance-what-is-possible.html)

    using the other two %s of VO2 max assumptions, the numbers are:
    87.5%:  6.7w/kg * 0.875 = 5.86 w/kg
    90%:  6.7w/kg * 0.9 = 6.03 w/kg
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  • kabloemski

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #65 on: July 03, 2013, 09:08 »
    Please refer to my Jensie thread - http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=1372.msg70117#msg70117 - letting go of them hurts, but Sagan's nowhere near as charming as a Jensie, you'll get over him very quickly.
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  • Hey, Bart! Your epidermis is showing!

    Dim

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #66 on: August 04, 2013, 20:34 »
    Apparently Sagan climbed off on box hill.

    Makes mental note next spring when he is dropping world class riders on hills, to bring up the fact that in 2012 he was getting off his bike on Box Hill :D
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  • oitallefotua

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #67 on: August 04, 2013, 22:12 »
    Apparently Sagan climbed off on box hill.

    Makes mental note next spring when he is dropping world class riders on hills, to bring up the fact that in 2012 he was getting off his bike on Box Hill :D

    Why would you do that? :wut

    He was in the bunch together with the other sprinters....

    http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=23028
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  • lucky

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #68 on: August 05, 2013, 01:57 »
    I think dim meant 2013.

    He's obviously taking the pee but its not like Sagan is going from amazing to mediocre and back like Gilbert for example.
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    Arb

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #69 on: August 05, 2013, 03:03 »
    He's always pretty average in the first few days of a new form cycle.
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  • Blackbandit222

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #70 on: August 05, 2013, 07:10 »
    I won't pretend to know more about doping then Dim n others.

    2012   Liquigas - Cannondale
    23/09/2012     14      World Championships (Maastricht - Valkenburg) R.R.
    16/09/2012      4      World Championships (Sittard - Valkenburg) T.T.T.
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    28/07/2012     34      Olympic Games (London) - R.R.      

    As a young rider Sagan used to appear game for everything.  He was always aggressively attempting to win weather a sprint or tour, and no matter the importance of the race.  However, after last year and this we appear to know who he is and what he does.  I also think he realizes what races matter and which ones don't and its a long brutal season you can't win them all.
    Based on last year he'll visit Canada n Worlds then call it quits.

    Edit:

    Or Not.

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/08/analysis/in-colorado-sagan-could-target-four-or-more-stages_297965
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  • « Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 00:10 by Blackbandit222 »
    Sagan supporter.

    oitallefotua

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #71 on: August 05, 2013, 13:28 »
    Based on 2012 and 2013 I would say it's more about a 22/23 year old rider who can't be on top form in both the spring (top form for ~5 weeks), the TdF (3 weeks) and the autumn.

    Which is quite natural.

    I don't expect any great results from him the rest of the year.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #72 on: July 17, 2014, 19:55 »
    Thu Jul-17-2014 Post Stage 12, TdF 2014

    A bump, since I was obliquely referring to Sagan and dopage in the chat today. Notice I said oblique - I kept the reference very light - since I don't want to be the rule-buster and get popped.

    Today Sagan was 2nd again. But the fatigue is showing in the after-race interviews. And, he is getting shorter with the interviewer's questions. But "What went wrong today in the sprint?" got "My legs hurt." Well, yeah!

    Good thing about all this? I think now, that Sagan's history, and his performances, seem very human. Not superhuman. I know it is precious little to go on - but we have precious little to go on to be suspicious, either.

    In his favor, he hasn't been popped yet. And nobody has come out of the team bus saying "nyah, nyah, nyah na! You're a doper!" either. Not even any rumors, at least, that I know of. Only speculations in places like the DarkSide. He's been consistent - not a one-year wonder. Nothing unusual, any more than an exceptionally strong young talent. And his performances show his effort. So, he isn't taking his team to the front, and then also beating all the sprinters, both up hill and on the flats. At least, not every time  :lol

    Also in his favor, imo, is that he shows a lot of talent that can not be enhanced - like bike handling and descending, and positioning in the final run-in. I don't remember anyone else as good at being in the right spot at the right time - but I wouldn't call myself knowledgeable on the topic.
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  • Ubi est ignis

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #73 on: July 18, 2014, 03:00 »
    yeah ... aside from the usual cynical view of 'no one can win without drugs these days' ... there isnt anything that really points towards his performances being chemically enhanced.

    He has crazy good skills, is obviously very talented on a bike. 

    18 months ago when getting set for the classics we were discussing Milan San Remo ... and there was not anyone who did not expect Sagan to win, and win comfortably.   Basically the general opinion was unless he actually crashed, there wasnt a situation in which he wouldnt win.   He was also talked about as winning Flanders, E3 and AGR at the same time ...and considered a favourite in all.

    Move forward to today, and he is still monument-less   :o   He still has not won in the Ardennes (well actually he won Brabantse Pijl last year ... but not one of the big 3) ... he didnt win the Worlds and while he had a great Tour last year, this year has failed to win a stage.

    That isnt taking away from what he HAS done.  2nd in MSR, RVV, wins at a bunch of spring classics, green jersey 3 times (might as well count this year, its as good as won) and 3 Tour stages last year  ... for a 24 yr old its not bad.

    But this 18 months has proven that he still has a lot to learn.   That leadership skills, reading a race and knowing how to win from certain situations  .. how to win when the field rides against you ... that stuff still has to be learned.


    It will be interesting next year to see how he goes if he is with Saxo under Bjarne Riis.   For all his evils, Bjarne knows how to get the best out of riders ... which for someone with young Peter's talent is a scary proposition
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  • jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #74 on: August 05, 2014, 14:42 »
    There was a post from a former pro on another forum that repeated the so-called "open secret" about Sagan and drugs.

    I don't know where I am with this to be honest.

    He hasn't won a classic and has won Maillot Vert's by being consistent as opposed to dominant.

    Could he just be a sprinter who climbs averagely?
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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #75 on: August 05, 2014, 14:58 »
    what exactly did he say?
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    jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #76 on: August 05, 2014, 19:30 »
    Am looking back through my net history for it... Paraphrasing he was saying "we all know aboutvwhat Sagan is up to"
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  • hiero

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #77 on: August 05, 2014, 20:18 »
    Am looking back through my net history for it... Paraphrasing he was saying "we all know aboutvwhat Sagan is up to"

    Are you referring to Joe Papp's Sagan thread over on CN? I can use names, since Joe was using his own name in the clear - I'm not revealing any secrets. That thread is, what, 3 years old now? Or is this something newer? Can you link it?
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  • jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #78 on: August 06, 2014, 08:27 »
    It was on bike radar... a guy who had been a junior around the same time as Sagan.

    Very frustrating that I can't find it.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #79 on: August 07, 2014, 01:24 »
    It was on bike radar... a guy who had been a junior around the same time as Sagan.

    Very frustrating that I can't find it.

    If you do, I would be interested to read it. ty
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  • hiero

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #80 on: March 02, 2017, 22:07 »
    Ok. I've got enough info now to form an opinion. ATM, I'm going with Sagan is crazy talented, and is not winning because he is doping.

    A: He is winning, winning, winning, when he isn't coming in 2nd. Year after year.
    B: There is, and has been, no smoke.
    C. His VERY early years he won, also.

    This is a great little article.

    https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2017/02/24/in-the-land-of-peter-sagan-a1547723

    So, looks to me like he is just a highly unusual character with a highly unusual talent. About as close as we've ever come to competing with Eddy Merckx as the number one all-time great.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #81 on: March 02, 2017, 22:14 »
    Ok. I've got enough info now to form an opinion.
    And it only took you 30 months! :lol
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    AG

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #82 on: March 02, 2017, 23:45 »
    Well - he definitely is crazy talented. 

    I am not convinced that that is all there is though.  Even the crazy, immensely talented, bike handling maestro has to compete against the highly juiced up ... and might use help to manage that.

    I dont doubt that the level of talent has meant he has won many times when 'assistance' alone would not have given him.

     Many riders take extra, and they dont all win ... it takes talent, persistance, extreme dedication, tactics/brains and the right attitude to win.

    Drugs alone are not enough - but talent alone isnt enough either.

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  • Yellow Peril

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #83 on: March 03, 2017, 07:24 »
    eye wateringly talented and strong. The way he bridged solo at the Worlds and his strength at OHN just simply awesome.

    For me though it's his consistency in the Tour that sometimes makes me suspect an issue. Everyone says the Tour is ridden at a pace beyond any of the other races that top level pro's compete in. Yet Sagan in the last couple of years has been in the mix for stages day after day after day at times when most would be resting legs after just a single days'a previous  efforts.

    However, if dope can make you ride a bike with such supreme skill and razor sharp reflexes ...get me a bucket full!
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  • Giving my view on life, cycling and the desire to do a sub 26min 10mTT on the Isle of Man @JaunePeril

    Echoes

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #84 on: March 03, 2017, 09:19 »
    Terpstra also bridged that gap alone.

    By the way why always opposing talents to dopers? If a so-called talent happens to be a doper, is that an excuse? In my book it's even an aggravating circumstance if you are talented and dope.
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  • "Paris-Roubaix is the biggest cycling race in the world, bigger than the Tour de France, bigger than any other bike race" (Sir Bradley Wiggins)

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #85 on: March 03, 2017, 10:43 »
    I know this doesn't answer the is he or isnt he but...

    I realized how much I now respected the guy:

    i) When I was absolutely gutted with is puncture luck at the Olympics - qualifying for, running well and potentially winning a medal in an altogether discipline was pure Hollywood

    ii) When I wasn't so distraught that he edged Cav at the worlds.  He wore the jersey with such aplomb and constant menace last year; and has kicked off in same manner this

    The sport desperately needs heroes (and Hiero) and whilst not moving this debate on one iota I am desperate that he just turns out to be an all time great uber-legend of the sport.
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  • hiero

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #86 on: March 03, 2017, 14:36 »
    And it only took you 30 months! :lol
    :lol :lol Yeah ya ya. Ok!   :D

    But sometimes you do need time and history to really get sufficient scope, yes?

    . . . He wore the jersey with such aplomb and constant menace last year; and has kicked off in same manner this


    He's the first WC in many years to come back winning in the rainbow stripes. (Road, anyway, IDK other disciplines). It's been a pleasure to watch him.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Sagan... Is he, or isn't he...
    « Reply #87 on: March 03, 2017, 15:28 »
    He's the first WC in many years to come back winning in the rainbow stripes. (Road, anyway, IDK other disciplines). It's been a pleasure to watch him.
    Bettini was the last to do it on the road.
    And I'd say Sagan is at least the caliber of Bettini, if not more.

    Now, if Sagan gets Baška or Kolar into #rainbow through tactically clever riding, I'll be on my knees. Bettini acted as lightning rod for Ballan & Cunego in Varese ... if Sagan can manage the same in Bergen by making people believe that the #teamsk guy up there in the penultimate-lap-move is just a dead weight, that'll be his masterpiece.


    OK, now I probably blew every chance of that happening by telling you the world about it. :D
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