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Echoes

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Probably the former Dalai-Lama avatar and recommendation to self-hypnosis relaxation technique confused me. Anyway I cannot imagine a Sagan fan who does not have the same narcissistic and attention-seeking behaviour as him. Probably because I like riders for their personality first and not that much for their talents. I never hated a rider before (unlike some might have thought). Even Armstrong, I didn't care because he did not really race "my" races. With that man it's different. If I talk too much about him, I'll get banned ...
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  • "Paris-Roubaix is the biggest cycling race in the world, bigger than the Tour de France, bigger than any other bike race" (Sir Bradley Wiggins)

    M Gee

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    Probably the former Dalai-Lama avatar and recommendation to self-hypnosis relaxation technique confused me. Anyway I cannot imagine a Sagan fan who does not have the same narcissistic and attention-seeking behaviour as him. Probably because I like riders for their personality first and not that much for their talents. I never hated a rider before (unlike some might have thought). Even Armstrong, I didn't care because he did not really race "my" races. With that man it's different. If I talk too much about him, I'll get banned ...

    Ah, I see. I do have some Buddhist tendencies in my mores, but I'm not what anyone would call a Buddhist. And meditation, or self-hypnosis sessions, and/or relaxation techniques are a very useful thing I've talked about on occasion. Not often, but when the soap box is there, I'll stand on it.

    Personally, I think it would be hard for a Sagan fan to be like him - he is one of a kind. I would not have used narcissistic or attention-seeking as descriptors for him any more. The first year, both words popped up quickly in thoughts regarding his behavior. But having watched him, and looking for both those traits, I no longer think them applicable. Flamboyant, yes. Fun-loving, mischievous, yes. Clever, yes. Competitive, extremely yes. But also honorable, considerate, temperate (unlike some hot-heads in the peloton like, say, Bouhanni?) And massively talented on the bike.

    One thing for sure, people don't usually call me narcissistic or attention-seeking! But I've never been able to stand out in a crowd the way Sagan does.
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  • Eeyore sez . . .

    Slow Rider

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    Probably the former Dalai-Lama avatar and recommendation to self-hypnosis relaxation technique confused me. Anyway I cannot imagine a Sagan fan who does not have the same narcissistic and attention-seeking behaviour as him. Probably because I like riders for their personality first and not that much for their talents. I never hated a rider before (unlike some might have thought). Even Armstrong, I didn't care because he did not really race "my" races. With that man it's different. If I talk too much about him, I'll get banned ...

    Well there's the difference I guess. I don't give a crap what a rider acts like when not on his bike, I want to see him race. And there is no rider with a better racing attitude than Sagan.

    You can't imagine a Buddhist liking Sagan for his personality, I can't imagine a cycling fan not liking him for his riding.

    With his kind of riding, he could be a misogynic Justin Bieber loving neo-Nazi wearing cargo shorts who routinely uses the 'crying with laughter' emoticon to indicate mild amusement on social media - I'd still be a fan[1]
     1. OK, truth be told, I might not be able to look beyond the crying with laughter thing, but otherwise the statement stands
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  • Echoes

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    Sagan is an attention-seeker. It's not Echoes speaking, it's Frederik Willems, former teammate at Liquigas who had remained friend (his attitude does not seem to bother him, must be a matter of upbringing). I shared that article on the BMC thread. "Van Avermaet would never seek attention, Sagan however." It was just in his first year, really? This is really the moment I realised that the guy had a problem. I hope nobody tells me it's funny because it's just lame and does not bring a nice image to the sport at all. And yes, even if Bouhanni is a creep, I usually like riders who can at times be hot-headed like say Oliver Naesen then attention seekers like the Slovakian guy. There had always been big mouths and quieter guys in the peloton, it's the way it is. But attention-seekers like that, I've seen very few of them in 28 years of watching cycling. It must be my upbringing. My father has always disliked him since he first saw him (before me!). "Look at me, I'm the strongest, I'm the most handsome". That's how he'd describe him despite saying once to me that he was "really strong".



    Well there's the difference I guess. I don't give a crap what a rider acts like when not on his bike, I want to see him race. [...]

    I can conceive that. Though I find it very sad.
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  • M Gee

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    IMHO, Sagan showed us brilliant racing in Gent-Wevelgem. Without Petr, with just GvA and Terpstra as big names? It would have been a good finish - exciting. With Sagan in the mix, it was about 90% more exciting. His attempt to bridge - when he broke on the right hand side of the road, using the road furniture to make the break a solid one? Brilliant.

    You know what? I'm happy - we are seeing real racing, I think. And really exciting competitions! Lovin' it.
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  • M Gee

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    Anybody else notice - Sagan cut his hair. Chopped the long locks. Good thing, IMO, as that long long hair was getting kinda bedraggled looking.
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  • latino

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    Sagan fan here (obviously), just wanted to leave a video with a few of his wins.

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  • Leadbelly

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    I'd have had a couple of his Suisse wins from 2011 and 2013 in there. The latter in particular must be quite embarrassing for those that finished behind him. Was it a headwind on the climb? I can't remember.
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  • M Gee

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    I used to think Cav was going to take this record, but that hope has long since faded.
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sagan-lays-foundations-for-record-equalling-tour-de-france-green-jersey
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  • M Gee

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    re: Tour de Suisse, stage 5. I wonder if he stays up nights dreaming up new victory salutes . . .

    Another GRAND victory. Massive.
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  • Echoes

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    For Sagan fans a bunch sprint is a grand victory. The world is crazy. I mean when is the groupie attitude going to stop?  :S

    Besides, you know that there's something wrong when cycling fans are discussing lame victory salutes ... This sport is sinking even lower. When are we reaching the bottom?
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  • M Gee

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    For Sagan fans a bunch sprint is a grand victory. The world is crazy. I mean when is the groupie attitude going to stop?  :S

    Besides, you know that there's something wrong when cycling fans are discussing lame victory salutes ... This sport is sinking even lower. When are we reaching the bottom?
    Echoes! Why all the vitriol? (Edit: actually, echoes, you have explained your attitude previously in this thread. I had forgotten. My advice, dude, is to chill and enjoy the show, or ignore it. Sagan isn't doing this out of an "I am better than you" attitude, he is doing it from "I'm great, and I'm going to have fun" attitude. And, yeah, he seeks attention. So what? )

    That sprint wasn't really a typical bunch sprint, don't you think?
    Here, a blow-by-blow:
    QS and Sunweb at the front at the 1k banner, no Bora train in sight, but Sagan there and UAE (w/ Modolo)
    Gilbert pulls @ 500m
    Sunweb (Nikias Arndt) attacks @ ~400m
    Sagan launches to follow Arndt and at 300m is within a bike length behind Arndt
    Sagan catches Arndt, and after a half breath behind Arndt's draft, launches AGAIN before the 200m signs and is past Arndt and away by 195m.

    Taking off at 400m? The bunch sprint happened behind Arndt and Sagan. Sagan's instinct was to follow the early wheel, and any other day, it was too early. It surely WAS too early for Arndt, who got swallowed up in the bunch sprint. But not for Sagan, who went from considerably farther out than we normally see when it is a "bunch sprint".

    I'm essentially going to ignore the "groupie attitude". That is demeaning and insulting, and you are better than that.

    As for lame victory salutes, do you recall Cippolini? The tiger-suit? The zebra-stripe-suit? The skin-skinsuit? And others? Sometimes you sit back and just enjoy the show. Mario was outrageous back then. Sagan is outrageous now. So? Sagan, you have to admit, has a clever sense of showmanship, as Mario did.

    Sagan has proven himself to be one of the top ten cyclists riding today - time and again. And through all the controversy and attention, he manages to maintain a civil attitude, and to keep his humor and joie-de-vivre. And so far, he hasn't pulled any Tinkoffs (with the possible exception of the ass-pinch, for which he appropriately apologized).

    When Gilbert was pulling off unlikely attacks and wins this spring, it was massive. And this victory was a similarly awesome display of power and INSTINCT. How many other riders realized the opportunity or danger of Arndt's attack? Nobody. Or they didn't have the chops to follow it and pass. So, yeah, massive is a good word here.

    As for attention seeking - ok. So is Bob Roll. So is Magnus Backstedt. So is Phil Gaiman. So are all the bloggers we regularly listen to. So?

    Ok, so Sagan rubs you the wrong way. Got it. Let's move on.


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  • « Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 23:18 by hiero »

    M Gee

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    Ok - we want to inject a little levity? Something down to earth to counter the hubris? Ok, how about this clip of Sagan zigzagging across the road to make it up the mountain finish?  :D :lol
    https://twitter.com/CyclingHubTV/status/743848587642052608
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  • M Gee

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    BTW, echoes and anyone else out there who DOESN'T like Sagan? Its ok. I certainly don't mind. You can unlike him all you want. That is just you being human.

    Example: I can't stand Froome. It's not logical, it just is. We humans are like that. We don't always have to be logical and have good reasons - some things are just beyond that. I might think you are a total mushroom because you feel that way, but hey, no worries, eh? I'll keep it to myself, if you keep it to yourself that you think I've been dipped in dog sh*t!  :wave
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  • M Gee

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    The Sagan Show. Heh. The media even capitalize it now! Gave me a good couple of chuckles today, what with "What is pressure?", and this:

    Quote
    When queried about what matching Erik Zabel’s would mean, Sagan shrugged his shoulders yet again.

    “What changes in the world if I win the green jersey? Nothing,” he said. “There are more important things in the life.”

    That’s the Sagan Way.
    http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/news/le-tour-sagan-show-begins_442642#QixdCFwoVfUhYz5q.99
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  • M Gee

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    Today was the final stage of the Tour de Pologne - The Tour of Poland. Sagan does not one, but two threatening breakaways.

    I do not know the stats - but I can not recall any rider who was so dominant and strong - in every circumstance and throughout the year. Historically, there is Merckx. But I wasn't following cycling in the Merckx era. So I can't say firsthand.

    There are the DarkEra riders of the 90's and early 2-oughts - but even Armstrong was not dominant throughout the year. Nor were the Classics Hall-of-Famers.

    Ok, so he has a way to go to WIN enough to be compared to the G.O.A.T., but you know, I think he is going to be there. He just continues to astound.
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  • M Gee

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    I just happened to have the last 4 km analysis of Sagan's movement at Bergen 2017 come up on Youtube.

    THAT was a beautiful race. Just absolutely B E A youtiful. I remember going off the front of a circuit race, and working so damn hard to stay out front - or even maybe lap the field. Didn't happen. Could not maintain the effort. So I watch 4 get off the front. One keeps it going, three get caught by the peloton. I REMEMBER how hard it was to stay out front, alone. Eventually the one gets caught. And Sagan was in the right place, at the right time.

    It was just beautiful.

    I just happened to look back up thread a bit. I may be the only fanbois for Sagan who still inhabits these regions, but now I have to say I am truly a fanbois for Sagan. Cav too, but that is another thread!
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  • M Gee

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    • The user formerly known as hiero

    t-72

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    and now ... to the great pleasure of Echoes

    WTF those stupid goggles on the podium ?

    https://twitter.com/Paris_Roubaix/status/983015137341829120

    OK, before Echoes pulls out his blowtorch.....I don't know what the gimmick is but there is a gimmick here.
    There is another world-class athlete that does the same thing: Esther Ledecka, who won 2 olympic gold medals in the winter olympics this year: Alpine Skiing Super G and Snowboard parallel slalom (technically thats about as complicated as winning mountain bike and road race, same year - a fantastic achievement!)

    Ledecka wore goggles at an indoors press conference after her surprise super G victory and provided a stupid excuse that she didn't expect to win so she had not put any make up on.

    Given that Ledecka and Sagan speak the same language - there's probably some link here, and if it is not the sponsors it looks like a stupid bet  :D. Has anyone seen the full story somewhere?



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    Given that Ledecka and Sagan speak the same language - there's probably some link here, and if it is not the sponsors it looks like a stupid bet  :D. Has anyone seen the full story somewhere?

    as far as I can remember she was wearing them because she hadn't put on make up that day as she didn't expect to end un in the spotlight anyway.

    Not too sure if that could also apply for Sagan :D

    Spoiler (hover to show)
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  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    t-72

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    The make-up excuse was obviously fake , presented in a humouristic way.
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  • search

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    are you sure? Vogue.com confirms it as a fact :D
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  • LukasCPH

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    and I am pretty sure Lukas will come up with something more knowledgable, but there are some differences between Czech and Slowak language
    Czech and Slovak are less different than Danish and Swedish (but a bit more than Dutch and Flemish). ;)

    However, I don't know more background on this story than you folks do. :slow
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    Views presented are my own. RIP Keith & Sean

    L'arri

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    The Guardian is something of a dilettante in its coverage of pro cycling, so I was a bit surprised to see a prominently placed post-Roubaix interview with Sagan, even if it doesn't offer that much in the way of novelty.

    And there are some very dodgy moments - Dillier is described as clinging to a narrow lead when they enter the velodrome, while Sagan is introduced as "the world's premier sprint cyclist", compared to Zlatan Ibrahimovic and his win in PR is described as "a shaft of light which revealed panache and grit" - but it's nice to learn about the Slovak's background, which I don't think I had read elsewhere:

    Quote
    “My parents met at a restaurant where they worked as waiters,” Sagan explains. “After some time my father opened a small supermarket. It was still one of the bigger ones in our city. Lots of people came to us and we were also selling beer in tanks. But after they opened big supermarkets in Zilina – like Tesco and Carrefour – in two years my parents’ business was gone completely. My father opened a pizzeria next but they had to work very hard.”

    Ever the Brit-centric publication, the journo almost got Sagan to comment on Froome (who bizarrely appears numerous times in the article like a ghost conjured by a chauvinistic ouija board) but it's amusing to read that the #bora PR was on hand to block the question.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/18/peter-sagan-pope-cyclist-cycling-paris-roubaix-interview
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    LukasCPH

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    And there are some very dodgy moments - Dillier is described as clinging to a narrow lead when they enter the velodrome, while Sagan is introduced as "the world's premier sprint cyclist", compared to Zlatan Ibrahimovic and his win in PR is described as "a shaft of light which revealed panache and grit"
    :slow :o :slow :snooty

    If one rider is riding with another rider in his slipstream, that's not a narrow lead. That's a race situation that often changes several times every minute. :X3

    They also mention Wiggins' congratulatory Social Media message. For no other reason than that it was composed by Sir Brad Wiggo, apparently.

    Some interesting aspects, but overall a strange piece.
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    WTF those stupid goggles on the podium ?

    :betting

    Quote
    Atop the recent Paris-Roubaix podium, Peter Sagan appeared wearing a now-familiar pair of motocross goggles draped around his neck. Nothing to do with the cobbles’ mud and dust, the goggles are pure cross-promotion, for eyewear sponsor 100%.

    Some laugh, stylistas howl. Others shrug — hey, if anyone can pull it off, the charismatic world champion can.

    They may upset some sensibilities, but in reality the goggles perform exactly the same purpose as a sponsor-emblazoned team cap.

    https://cyclingtips.com/2018/04/peter-sagans-330000-facebook-post-and-the-value-of-cyclists-social-media/
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  • L'arri

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    :betting

    https://cyclingtips.com/2018/04/peter-sagans-330000-facebook-post-and-the-value-of-cyclists-social-media/

    Nice article and I seem to recall reading something about this sort of analysis in a CN article around the time when the sport was doing a lot of navel gazing in the immediate aftermath of USADA vs. Armstrong.

    It is odd, isn't it, to put a monetary value on something that is essentially theoretical. What is being measured here is as nebulous as notions of reputation or image and yet, presumably, people are using it as a valid metric that enables them to do real transactions.

    Sagan can actually name his price based on this kind of thing, not just on actual results. In some ways, I think it is a positive development that riders should leverage their profile for image rights or added brand value. But I wish it could be done somehow at the team level, where it seems to me it is probably most needed.
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  • M Gee

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    . . .

    It is odd, isn't it, to put a monetary value on something that is essentially theoretical. What is being measured here is as nebulous as notions of reputation or image and yet, presumably, people are using it as a valid metric that enables them to do real transactions.

    Sagan can actually name his price based on this kind of thing, not just on actual results. In some ways, I think it is a positive development that riders should leverage their profile for image rights or added brand value. But I wish it could be done somehow at the team level, where it seems to me it is probably most needed.
    :betting !
    EXCELLENT article, really! Well worth the time to read. Sports sponsorships have been doing these sort of nebulous calculations since I was first involved in cycling. How else can they do it? Actually, I think today the metrics are quite a bit more sophisticated, and possibly accurate. One connection they don't make - or that we don't see - is effectiveness per dollar. In other words, how much in sales was driven by the advertising. But I'm not quibbling, because every dollar spent on promoting cycling helps keep it on my tv!

    I have to agree about the team value tho. I think I'm a bit of an oddball on this score, but it has always been my moral that the individual member of a team owes something to the team for their effort on his behalf. At least in the US, this is an uncommon attitude. Here people seem to think, in business and sports, "I'm the star. I made the sale/basket/touchdown/whatever, so I deserve all the money." So millionaires running a company pay themselves hundreds of times what they pay their supporting team workers. And sports team stars get paid on a similarly disproportionate scale. Yet, just as in a race, the person on the podium, or the person who made the big sale, wouldn't be there without that team.

    So, yeah, I believe there should be a share-back mechanism. Both in business and sports.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    It is odd, isn't it, to put a monetary value on something that is essentially theoretical. What is being measured here is as nebulous as notions of reputation or image and yet, presumably, people are using it as a valid metric that enables them to do real transactions.

    Indeed. It's very odd, and I've never understood how companies could interpret some of this stuff so literally. To suggest that the video with Sagan "helping" to pack away a banner was somehow worth "nearly $300,000 to Specialized" (regardless of the level of "engagement") seems preposterous to me. Had it not been pointed out, I wouldn't have even noticed the Specialized logo on his shorts. From my perspective, the only thing I would remember from that clip is "Peter Sagan." And maybe, maybe, the prominently displayed Bora logo on his jersey, although I still haven't the slightest idea as to what that company is or even does (nor do I care).

    Some years ago, Vaughters had posted some insightful breakdowns of this type of valuation, and how sponsors and teams would work to convince each other of their relevance. But I didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now. The metrics used certainly seem to tilt in favor of the teams, but how any company can truly believe they're getting a return on their investment is beyond me. Especially given the nature of a sport where riders frequently switch teams, and sponsors come-and-go nearly as often as the seasons themselves. If Sagan wins a race, I remember Sagan—not whether it occurred on a Cannondale, Specialized or any other brand. The constant rotation of sponsors exposes the myth of sponsorship itself. It's the rider—not the bike, not the helmet, not the glasses, not the energy supplements, and often not even the specific team. Most legendary riders have won big races while using a variety of sponsored bikes, under the watch of a variety of sponsored teams. The specific product is meaningless.

    And nothing is worse than transparently fake product promo from any athlete. When they Tweet or 'Gram about some new piece of something-or-other that was obviously given to them for free, and usually with the inherent understanding that said promotion was a mandatory part of the exchange, then it only serves to dilute the brand's authenticity and the messenger. Even more so in this day-and-age of overwhelming narcissism, where nearly everyone is advertising and selling something, even if that something is simply "them." Half the world is promoting themselves 24/7. How any sort of specific value can be placed on one more piece of noise in the matrix is beyond me.

    It goes beyond the specifics of any particular product "engagement" as well. Companies like Twitter are well known to  play high-profile individuals simply to use their platform. So even the most innocuous-seeming posts now become disingenuous and insincere. Everything they do on social media has a hidden agenda, and that agenda is mostly to line their own pockets, not to make your life any more interesting by following them.

    I could go on-and-on about the dynamics between companies, sponsorships, individuals and the public, based on my experiences in the music industry. But that would be better suited to a different thread dedicated to that specific topic.
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  • « Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 15:02 by Drummer Boy »

    LukasCPH

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    And nothing is worse than transparently fake product promo from any athlete. When they Tweet or 'Gram about some new piece of something-or-other that was obviously given to them for free, and usually with the inherent understanding that said promotion was a mandatory part of the exchange, then it only serves to dilute the brand's authenticity and the messenger. Even more so in this day-and-age of overwhelming narcissism, where nearly everyone is advertising and selling something, even if that something is simply "them." Half the world is promoting themselves 24/7. How any sort of specific value can be placed on one more piece of noise in the matrix is beyond me.
    This is interesting to read.

    Even more so as the current fashion is to for Instagrammers, YouTubers etc. with a large following to be an 'Influencer'[1] who get contacted by companies to be sent products for free (or even accompanied by some money) with the understanding that they will promote those products/brands to their followers. Allegedly that is considered more 'genuine' than 'old-fashioned' advertising.
    What you say is the exact opposite. And I'm inclined to agree; the younger generations aren't so stupid that they won't see through much promoted content.
    Personally, I'd rather get an honest billboard.
     1. not influenza ;)
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    [July 16, 2018, 17:25]


    Re: BMC news by Drummer Boy
    [July 16, 2018, 17:20]


    Re: BMC news by search
    [July 16, 2018, 16:09]


    Re: BMC news by Carlo Algatrensig
    [July 16, 2018, 15:29]


    Re: BMC news by Mellow Velo
    [July 16, 2018, 15:12]



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