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Re: team Sky news
« Reply #600 on: September 14, 2013, 01:57 »
I'm never going to sit in judgement on what is and isn't a 'real racer', despite having been a 'racer' myself at an earlier point in my life. I think a TdF win, several Olympic track Golds and an Olympic TT Gold stands up quite nicely against any attack on Wiggin's racing prowess.

I've never ridden a GT, but I have ridden multi-day endurance events so I have some notion of the way in which pressure, fatigue and emotions can take you. I don't hold that against Wiggins. Its part of sport.

The key point is that he didn't quit and he did win.

It's not about Wiggins palmares or and attack on Wiggins "racing prowess." In my opinion, a real racer races for the joy of racing. They don't complain about the course, or the weather, or what may happen on the road. They're in it to do what they love to do, race. And if a a teammate riding away for a couple hundred meters (and then realizing and stopping BTW) is enough to make a rider think about quitting, then their not showing a true racers spirit. 

Nonetheless, I'm glad that he didn't quit the race.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #601 on: September 14, 2013, 07:19 »
    In which case many of the racers I raced with and indeed myself were not real racers. You can probably exclude a fair chunk of the pro peloton too.   :D

    By the way, with regards to the 2012 TdF, I think you are massively underestimating the actual incident, as well as the general ill-feeling that generated and followed the incident. Froome didn't ride up the road and then 'realise'. He was barked at by everybody in the team car. It wasn't an insignificant event, it was the key domestique attacking his leader in direct contradiction of team orders. He knew exactly what he was doing.

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #602 on: September 14, 2013, 08:35 »
    If he knew what he was doing then he should have blown the doors off and taken yellow.

    Thing is I read Yates quotes as he wanted to go, he wanted stages , he saw a rider taking away his stage wins, he went , blew away wiggo and then get a reminder.

    A calculated , knew what he was doing would have just gone and won the race.

    But I also think froome is not really that smart so who knows maybe Michelle told him to attack  :D
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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #603 on: September 14, 2013, 11:45 »
    If he knew what he was doing then he should have blown the doors off and taken yellow.

    Thing is I read Yates quotes as he wanted to go, he wanted stages , he saw a rider taking away his stage wins, he went , blew away wiggo and then get a reminder.

    A calculated , knew what he was doing would have just gone and won the race.

    But I also think froome is not really that smart so who knows maybe Michelle told him to attack  :D
    So I have read both the Wiggo and Yates bio's, the Yates bio goes into far more detail than the Wiggo bio:
    1. Yates had told Froome before the TdF when they were reconning the stage that if he wanted to win the TdF the best place to make a winning move was 5km from the top on that mountain. Yates blames himself for putting the seed into Froome's mind.
    2. Wiggins was made the leader before the TdF because of the ITT km's and lack of killer climbs. Sky mgt knew Froome was the better climber, but Wiggo was the better TT'er
    3. After Froome lost 1m on a flat stage, there was no more doubt in the mgt minds. Froome/Porte almost got back on as well. All in Wiggo.
    4. The night before they had a mgt meeting to *agree* on strategy - Brailsford/Yates/Wiggo/Froome - and it was agreed by all that Froome could attack in the last 500m to win the stage otherwise was to ride tempo for Wiggo. Froome asked to attack from 5km out.
    5. After deciding this on the morning on the race Froome was asking Yates could he attack from 4km out? No. 2km out? No.
    6. Froome attacked not only from 5km, but after pulling off and leaving Wiggo to think he was on his own for the rest of the stage.
    7. After the text arrived, Brailsford instead of going to see Wiggo was going for an evening stroll with Kerriston and Ellingworth.
    8. Yates told Brailsford in no uncertain terms to come to Wiggo room
    9. Yates and Brailsford gave Wiggo some love and said he was going to win, don't be silly, calm down.
    10. Yates told Brailsford afterwards to give Froome a bollocking.
    11. Yates saw Froome at 10pm. Brailsford hadn't spoken to him. So Yates gave him the bollocking personally.

    Froome knew exactly what he doing and how emotionally retarded and weak Wiggins.

    Next season, Froome is golden boy. Yates is gone. Wiggo needs his Aussia Sargent- Major back to help him prepare for Worlds.
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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #604 on: September 15, 2013, 03:36 »
    In which case many of the racers I raced with and indeed myself were not real racers. You can probably exclude a fair chunk of the pro peloton too.   :D

    By the way, with regards to the 2012 TdF, I think you are massively underestimating the actual incident, as well as the general ill-feeling that generated and followed the incident. Froome didn't ride up the road and then 'realise'. He was barked at by everybody in the team car. It wasn't an insignificant event, it was the key domestique attacking his leader in direct contradiction of team orders. He knew exactly what he was doing.

    I think the incident is actually overestimated by many (Wiggins being one of them), a lot of people see Froome riding away for a while as some kind of travesty. As if he was attacking Wiggins in a attempt to take his yellow jersey. The way some talk about it, it sounds like the crime of the century. He wasn't trying to steal Wiggins jersey, he attacked for the stage win, and when he was told to stop he did and let Wiggins catch back up to him.

    Sure it wasn't an insignificant event of the 2012 Tour, but it wasn't nearly as big an incident at it's built up to be.
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  • Jamsque

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #605 on: September 15, 2013, 15:00 »
    No-one thinks Froome was attacking to take the jersey away from Wiggins. The 'big incident' is Froome going against a completely unambiguous plan laid down by his team (even though that plan included a chance for him to win the stage).

    Froome saw that Wiggins was struggling to follow his pace, started to worry that they wouldn't be close enough to the leader on the road for an attack with 500m to go to win, and decided to leave Wiggins behind and press on for glory. Even if you give Froome the benefit of the doubt and assume the attack was impulsive and not pre-meditated, it is a move that makes him seem untrustworthy and disloyal.

    I am sure that some would argue in Froome's defence that he was just showing the HEART of a TRUE RACER or similar, and I imagine many if not the majority of those people also have no love for Bradley Wiggins. I don't think one's opinion of Wiggins should matter here: every rider, great or minor, must sometimes play the role of domestique, and a good domestique follows the team plan and certainly does not value personal glory over protecting their leader unless explicitly let off the leash.

    This is not a scandal to shake the foundations of cycling itself, but it is a juicy bit of Tour de France drama in the same vein as 'chain-gate' or the crosswind stage when Armstrong made the first echelon and Contador did not.
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #606 on: September 15, 2013, 15:39 »
    I believe that Froome wanted to put enough time into Wiggins lead on that climb to convince the management that he should be able to duke it out with Wiggins for the Yellow jersey on the remaining stages. Yates said that was what Froome wanted in his bio, but the management had decided before the Tour that such a strategy would only open the gate for Nibali.

    Remember Wiggins started out as the leader at the Vuelta in 2011, but Froome took over the role (too late) after the Angliru.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #607 on: September 15, 2013, 16:13 »
    I agree.  Which explains why Wiggins was so peeed off and threatened to pack.
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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #608 on: September 15, 2013, 16:58 »
    By the way, with regards to the 2012 TdF, I think you are massively underestimating the actual incident, as well as the general ill-feeling that generated and followed the incident. Froome didn't ride up the road and then 'realise'. He was barked at by everybody in the team car. It wasn't an insignificant event, it was the key domestique attacking his leader in direct contradiction of team orders. He knew exactly what he was doing.
    I agree.  Which explains why Wiggins was so peeed off and threatened to pack.

    If Froome was really that bad of a team mate then how come he didn't pull the same trick again, you are in second after a guy you know you are better than and team management is making you not attack, guy in 1st threatens to leave, why not attack again and make Wiggins leave and take the win if Froome was really that cold.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #609 on: September 15, 2013, 17:17 »
    We don't know what Froome was threatened with (or promised) that evening.

    I think the events of April/may this year give a fair indication of just how significant the incident was.
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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #610 on: September 15, 2013, 20:35 »
    We don't know what Froome was threatened with (or promised) that evening.

    I think the events of April/may this year give a fair indication of just how significant the incident was.

    Apart from kicking him out of the tour not much the team could do, plus if Wiggins already went home would they dare kick out their new captain? Even if he would never ride for sky again, who cares, he would get away from Wiggins, and as TDF winner he would get a good offer.
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #611 on: September 16, 2013, 10:48 »
    So could anyone tell me what the hell is going on with EBH? He was again completely invisible in this Vuelta, while against this sprint field a few years ago he'd have won a number of both flat and uphill sprints. Now, he was nowhere. Are there any excuses for that, illness or something?

    He won one Dauphiné stage, that Tour of Norway and his national ITT championships: far too little for a man of his talents. How long does his contract still last? He is of great value as a domestique, but I fear he's ruining his own career if he stays at Sky for much longer.
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  • Jamsque

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #612 on: September 16, 2013, 11:17 »
    You ask a very good question Slow Rider. At this point Eddy seems to have had more 'troubled' seasons than successful ones. I thought the switch from using his own trainer to working with Team Sky's staff would get him back on the right rack but it seems he is still struggling to find good form and hang on to it for more than a week at a time. We know he's always struggled with keeping food down while on the bike and being nervous in bunch finishes but he has been in the sport long enough that I don't think those are good excuses any more.
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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #613 on: September 16, 2013, 11:24 »
    You ask a very good question Slow Rider. At this point Eddy seems to have had more 'troubled' seasons than successful ones. I thought the switch from using his own trainer to working with Team Sky's staff would get him back on the right rack but it seems he is still struggling to find good form and hang on to it for more than a week at a time. We know he's always struggled with keeping food down while on the bike and being nervous in bunch finishes but he has been in the sport long enough that I don't think those are good excuses any more.

    My bet is what you kind of get at Jams if I am reading in between the lines

    the problem with EBH is Sky - he needs to be in a team like Argos where getting in a break and going off the hook is encouraged, rather than program ride in the pact , set a pace , and Eddy yo try and sprint if it comes down to it .

    The 2 wins at the tour came when the GC was dead , and as Keith said Sky take the same Grand tour ideas to 1 day racing

    EBH just needs to be told just ride and get in a break or go with the flow imo

     
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #614 on: September 16, 2013, 12:06 »
    Love him or Hate him, Wiggo always gives a good interview:

    http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/news/20876/8924650/sir-bradley-wiggins-not-planning-to-hold-talks-with-rival-chris-froome (3 min - advise to watch video and ignore text)

    1. He doesn't know where people get some stuff about his weight (Errr, that would be Wiggo) and the hour record (Errr, that would be semi-retired coach Sutton)
    2. No olive branch to Froome - we're all pro's, get on bikes and do job - and anyway media like a good soap opera.
    3. He has caused enough trouble - now just going to do whatever he is told (Err, couldn't see if he had his fingers crossed)
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  • Jamsque

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #615 on: September 16, 2013, 13:52 »
    My bet is what you kind of get at Jams if I am reading in between the lines

    the problem with EBH is Sky - he needs to be in a team like Argos where getting in a break and going off the hook is encouraged, rather than program ride in the pact , set a pace , and Eddy yo try and sprint if it comes down to it .

    The 2 wins at the tour came when the GC was dead , and as Keith said Sky take the same Grand tour ideas to 1 day racing

    EBH just needs to be told just ride and get in a break or go with the flow imo

    I'm not sure what you saw between my lines, I wasn't trying to insinuate anything in particular.

    I'm not sure Sky is the problem with EBH per se, although I definitely agree that riding for him in a bunch sprint has been demonstrated several times as being an exercise in futility.

    If he does stay at Sky it will presumably be as a co-leader in the classics and a sort of Jens Voigt in the Grand Tours, allowed to go in breaks some days and grinding out the miles on the front on others. He can do very well in that role if that's what he desires, I even still have faith that he can win Flanders or Roubaix some day. If he was going to develop in to the monster we all saw glimpses of in his years at HTC he would probably have done it by now.

    He could well decide to head somewhere else and spend less time working for GC leaders, and a change of scenery would undoubtedly do him some good. Whether he would actually land any big wins if he was on Argos or Vacansoleil is another question.
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  • sublimit

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #616 on: September 16, 2013, 13:58 »
    EBH does seem to have regressed,  always looks to be a bit stuffed when reaching the latter stages of races and never in any condition to sprint properly.   

    Maybe a lighter racing programme or something would help.
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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #617 on: September 16, 2013, 16:52 »
    I'm not sure Sky is the problem with EBH per se, although I definitely agree that riding for him in a bunch sprint has been demonstrated several times as being an exercise in futility.

    He did win the bunch sprint behind Mollema on stage 17 though.

    Have to agree that he is much more of a breakaway man where he would be able to out sprint fellow breakees fairly easily.

    He was again completely invisible in this Vuelta, while against this sprint field a few years ago he'd have won a number of both flat and uphill sprints. Now, he was nowhere. Are there any excuses for that, illness or something?

    BH did pull out of the tour with a fractured shoulder blade and he might have been a bit naive about the effect it had on his training prior to the Vuelta when he said “I would anyway have a little more quiet period after the Tour de France, so I do not think the injury has changed so much for me,”.
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  • Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.

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    froome19

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #618 on: September 16, 2013, 20:09 »
    Maybe a lighter racing programme or something would help.
    A lighter racing programme..allowing him to do more of his own thing. All of that may help.

    EBH can be such a great classics rider and I won't rest until he is. Breakaways in stage races is great but he is better than that in my opinion. The defining fact is not how he has been racing, but the level he has been racing at. His form at the Tour prior to his injury was substandard and his classics form was relatively woeful.

    Get to the level I know he can get to and then the wins will start coming.. just watch ;)
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    Jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #619 on: September 19, 2013, 10:22 »
    EBH is a real enigma.

    In a previous life I wrote this piece about him (and Thomas De Gendt) on Road.cc. Back in 2009 I saw him dominating racing.

    http://road.cc/content/blog/8689-tour-flanders-2012
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    lancasterke

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #620 on: September 25, 2013, 16:53 »
    and thus endeth the worst follow up (excluding seasons lost to injury and drugs bans) since.... it's been a while.

    (this is a worse drop off than gilbert a couple of years ago. you could say cobo a couple of years ago, but he was a long way from dominant in 2011, cadel was closer to competitive in 2012 and less dominant in 2011)
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  • Froome's Thoughts

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #621 on: September 25, 2013, 17:27 »
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  • Joachim

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #622 on: September 25, 2013, 17:31 »
    On the World Champion podium isn't exactly a non-achievement.

    I don't know. I think Wiggins had to dig really deep and make enormous sacrifices last year. They paid off, but I think the price was too high for him to want to repeat the process.

    Its understandable. He won cycling's biggest prize. Where do you go from there?
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  • lancasterke

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #623 on: September 26, 2013, 10:11 »
    he was unlikely to top 2012, but considering he has managed to race a full program (just about the same volume as last year) but geared to giro vs tdf i do think it's surprising he's been basically so ineffectual. best rider in the world (fairly easily) to 2nd best tter

    this seasons highlights are 5th at trentino and catalunya, and 13th @5.22 and getting worse when pulling out after 12 stages of the giro

    he's still a super strong bike rider, but this season he has featured at he business end of races on reputation not because he's been competitive.

    the boy probably just needs a holiday.

    (all that being said he'll probably win the WCRR and lombardia, making me look rather silly)
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  • Joachim

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #624 on: September 26, 2013, 11:20 »
    From my own comparatively humble experiences, the outstanding years ive had have always been followed by disastrous years. I thoroughly understand how Wiggins motivation and results have wavered.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #625 on: October 01, 2013, 20:35 »
    In regards to the Nieve signing I was wondering if it was a good or a bad thing, I starting out thinking, "oh no another good rider stuck duing dom work on Sky" however I ended up seeing that if this was managed correctly it could be great. Wiggins appears to be done being relevant for GC in the GT's, and Porte is more relevant than ever, he will ride the Giro and Froome will try to repeat his Tour win. Porte will likely backup Froome at the Tour, if Nieve is slated to do the same, he could be Sky's leader at the Vuelta, and Henao, who I don't think ever will be a top 5 GT rider, can do the Giro and Vuelta, and on the way focus on the hilly classics like LBL and San Sebastian which he should be a very good bit at a winner at. Also wih Froome, Porte and Nieve not being as dependant on a train riding them up the mountain consisting of 7 riders, Froome will be fine with 4 guys in the mountains he can use when and if he needs them, it will allow team Sky's classic riders, Stannard, Thomas and Hagen to focus on the classics, when they don't have to worry about being able to set pace uphill. Question is if Sky will use this signing correctly or not?
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #626 on: October 01, 2013, 22:14 »
    In regards to the Nieve signing I was wondering if it was a good or a bad thing, I starting out thinking, "oh no another good rider stuck duing dom work on Sky" however I ended up seeing that if this was managed correctly it could be great. Wiggins appears to be done being relevant for GC in the GT's, and Porte is more relevant than ever, he will ride the Giro and Froome will try to repeat his Tour win. Porte will likely backup Froome at the Tour, if Nieve is slated to do the same, he could be Sky's leader at the Vuelta, and Henao, who I don't think ever will be a top 5 GT rider, can do the Giro and Vuelta, and on the way focus on the hilly classics like LBL and San Sebastian which he should be a very good bit at a winner at. Also wih Froome, Porte and Nieve not being as dependant on a train riding them up the mountain consisting of 7 riders, Froome will be fine with 4 guys in the mountains he can use when and if he needs them, it will allow team Sky's classic riders, Stannard, Thomas and Hagen to focus on the classics, when they don't have to worry about being able to set pace uphill. Question is if Sky will use this signing correctly or not?
    Nieve will be crushed next year trying to deal with the Kerrison training load.
    Porte will never GT podium, he has bad days and cannot keep it going for 3 weeks.
    Kennaugh, Dombrowski or Edmondson will surprise next year in a GT.
    Henao will podium in a GT.
    Froome will win the TdF.
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  • Froome's Thoughts

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #627 on: October 01, 2013, 22:25 »
    Nieve is a great signing because Sky lack anyone with his climbing capabilities who understands that they are coming into the team to work for Froome in the Tour and accept that any GT leadership status will be a bonus. I can't imagine that Sky outlined it differently in the agreement.
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  • Tuart

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #628 on: October 02, 2013, 01:40 »
    On the subject of EBH is it a case of too much unrealistic expectation? Putting aside this year, he's had some great seasons. Using CQ  from '09-13 he's ranked 6th, 16th, 11th, 6th each year respectively. That is an elite performance, regardless of high his ceiling is meant to be. Last year was his best season too, with 1780pts bettering the 1616pts from 2009. He did a lot of racing.

    He raced 70 days, Jan to Oct:

    1 x Grand Tour (TDF)
    4 x WT Stage Races (TDU, T-A, CdD, ToB)
    10 x WT Classics
    Worlds & Olympics

    22-Jan   
    172 pts @ TDU
    7th Overall
    5 top10 placings
    1st Points
       
    12-Mar
    42pts @ Tirr-Adr
    1st St3
       
    25-Mar
    79pts @ Gent-Wev (5th)
       
    20-May
    154pts @ Norway
    1st Overall
    1st St4
       
    10-Jun
    60pts @ Dauphine
    1st St 3
    5th Points
       
    24-Jun
    78pts @ Nats
    1st R.R
    2nd ITT
       
    22-Jul
    174pts @ TDF
    2x 3rd (St 1,13)
    2nd St 3
    5th Points
       
    19-Aug   
    79pts @ Vattenfall (5th)
       
    26-Aug   
    220pts @ Plouay (1st)
       
    23-Sep   
    240pts @ WC R.R (2nd)
       
    13-Oct   
    230pts @ Beijing
    3rd overall
    1st points
    3 x 3rd (St 1,3,5)

    That is an amazingly consistent season spanning the whole cycling season. I don't think his '12 got the wraps it deserved.
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    KeithJamesMc

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    Re: team Sky news
    « Reply #629 on: October 10, 2013, 10:25 »
    Very disappointed with Team Sky in October:
    - only raced with 6 at Lombardia
    - now starting Beijing with 7

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