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Is Horner's Vuelta win believeable, in terms of clean racing, in your opinion?


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Re: Chris Horner
« Reply #120 on: September 14, 2013, 19:29 »
"Horner's record on Peña Cabarga doesn't have any merit, the wind was helping us..... and against us too!!! Hahahahaha!!"

Small correction.

"Tthe wind was helping him(Horner) but against us (presumably, the other gc contenders). ";)

Everyone seems to think Murito is joking about how good Horner was on Pena C.

But as I understood it Murito could have been talking about his own record on Pena Cabarga (back in 2010) that when he set the record (us being 2010) there was a headwind, whereas this year when Horner set the record it was a tailwind, so Murito wants his record back.
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #121 on: September 14, 2013, 20:09 »
    It's crazy that the bolded is actually intended as a defence of Horner. Under any normal circumstances, I would expect someone to be saying "The 41-year-old guy isn't doing quite as well as he did when he was younger." This situation is so absurd that we are being reassured that, despite appearances, he's not a far better bike rider than he was 10 years ago.

    Purito looked close to best shape yesterday, Nibali should lose on a mountain when Purito is in tip top shape, Nibali is riding better than Purito, so Nibali must be in very good shape, today he looked as good as Giro and Horner still beat him, there is no way. With this shape he might have got Froome at the tour if he had raced, I don't think Horner is anywhere close to believeable, I think I will add a vote.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #122 on: September 14, 2013, 21:50 »
    Gazetta dello Sport

    *it ONORI E GLORIA — Fino a prova contraria, fosse anche fra 10 anni – a Chris Horner

    *gb The Honour and the Glory Belongs to - Until proven otherwise, even in 10 years - Chris Horner
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #123 on: September 14, 2013, 21:56 »
    Horner released his srm data for stage18 pena cabarga.
    http://www.srm.de/news/road-cycling/vuelta-a-espana-stage-18/

    final climb: 425w for weight just below 65kg or 6.5w/kg for 16m17s effort.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #124 on: September 14, 2013, 22:34 »
    Gazetta dello Sport

    *it ONORI E GLORIA — Fino a prova contraria, fosse anche fra 10 anni – a Chris Horner

    *gb The Honour and the Glory Belongs to - Until proven otherwise, even in 10 years - Chris Horner

    Wow, broadside there.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #125 on: September 14, 2013, 23:00 »
    Horner released his srm data for stage18 pena cabarga.
    http://www.srm.de/news/road-cycling/vuelta-a-espana-stage-18/

    final climb: 425w for weight just below 65kg or 6.5w/kg for 16m17s effort.
    Horner may be pretty ancient, but at least when it comes to releasing data he is leading the way, so chapeau to him.

    My personal favorites include:

    "Chris is hitting the same numbers he’s been hitting all of his career." (Considering his name is in the USADA report, is that a good thing?)

    This is an interesting one. Obviously that comment is very flawed as you say, but if it wasn't for Horner's age I would expect him to be performing better in a cleaner peloton than he would have been whilst racing in the dirtier peloton. His age is inexplicable unfortunately.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #126 on: September 15, 2013, 00:12 »
    This is an interesting one. Obviously that comment is very flawed as you say, but if it wasn't for Horner's age I would expect him to be performing better in a cleaner peloton than he would have been whilst racing in the dirtier peloton. His age is inexplicable unfortunately.

    I don't know how well a responder to Epo Horner is so I don't know if he would be better when everybody is dirty or when no one is. I can't see how anybody can say he will preform better in a clean peloton, unless you are assuming that he is/is not doping the same regardless.
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #127 on: September 15, 2013, 09:39 »
    http://www.fillarifoorumi.fi/forum/showthread.php?38129-Ammattilaispy%F6r%E4ilij%F6iden-nousutietoja-(aika-km-h-VAM-W-W-kg-etc-)&p=2017096#post2017096

    and

    http://www.fillarifoorumi.fi/forum/showthread.php?38129-Ammattilaispy%F6r%E4ilij%F6iden-nousutietoja-(aika-km-h-VAM-W-W-kg-etc-)&p=2017098#post2017098

    • Tour de France 2010 | Chris Horner (63.5 kg)

      ------------- SRM -Vayer -DrF - CPL - rst
      Avoriaz ----- 351 - 347 - 341 - 346 - 360
      ------------------- -4 -- -10 - -5 -- +9
      ------------------- 1.14% 2.85% 1.42% 2.56%

      ------------- SRM -Vayer -DrF - CPL - rst
      Madeleine --- 320 - 323 - 322 - 323 - 335
      ------------------- +3 -- +2 -- +3 -- +15
      ------------------- 0.94% 0.63% 0.94% 4.69%

      ------------- SRM -Vayer -DrF - CPL - rst
      Mende ------- 422 - 418 - 384 - 417 - 404
      ------------------- -4 -- -38 - -5 -- -18
      ------------------- 0.95% 9.00% 1.18% 4.27%

      ------------- SRM -Vayer -DrF - CPL - rst
      Ax-3-Domaines 370 - 375 - 368 - 375 - 380
      ------------------- +5 -- -2 -- +5 -- +10
      ------------------- 1.35% 0.54% 1.35% 2.70%

      ------------- SRM -Vayer -DrF - CPL - rst
      Bales ------- 342 - 358 - 347 - 355 - 368
      ------------------- +16 - +5 -- +13 - +26
      ------------------- 4.68% 1.46% 3.80% 7.60%

      ------------- SRM -Vayer -DrF - CPL - rst
      Tourmalet --- 360 - ??? - 367 - 371 - 387
      ------------------------- +7 -- +11 - +27
      ------------------------- 1.94% 3.06% 7.50%

      ------------- SRM -Vayer -DrF - CPL - rst
      Tourmalet --- 377 - 409 - 393 - 406 - 418
      First 9.35 km ----- +32 - +16 - +29 - +41
      --------------------8.49% 4.24% 7.69% 10.9%

      ------------- SRM -Vayer -DrF - CPL - rst
      Tourmalet --- 348 - 354 - 351 - 350 - 359
      Last 9.30 km ------ +6 -- +3 -- +2 -- +11
      ------------------- 1.72% 0.86% 0.57% 3.16%

    and


    • Tour de France 2010 | Chris Horner (63.5 kg)

      Stage -8, Morzine-Avoriaz --------------- 13.70 km, -6.06 %, -830 m) | - 35:36, 23.09 Kph, VAM 1399 m/h
      Stage -9, Col de la Madeleine ----------- 25.50 km, -6.00 %, 1530 m) | 1:09:36, 21.98 Kph, VAM 1319 m/h
      Stage 12, Cote de la Croix Neuve / Mende - 3.10 km, 10,26 %, -318 m) | - 10:06, 18.30 Kph, VAM 1877 m/h
      Stage 14, Ax-3-Domaines ------------------ 7.80 km, -8.33 %, -650 m) | - 23:43, 19.73 Kph, VAM 1644 m/h
      Stage 15, Port de Bales ----------------- 19.30 km, -6.10 %, 1177 m) | - 49:30, 23.39 Kph, VAM 1427 m/h
      Stage 17, Col du Tourmalet -------------- 18.60 km, -7.44 %, 1383 m) | - 52:22, 21.31 Kph, VAM 1585 m/h
      Stage 17, Col du Tourmalet --------- First 9.35 km, -7.16 %, -669 m) | - 23:54, 23.47 Kph, VAM 1681 m/h
      Stage 17, Col du Tourmalet ---------- Last 9.30 km, -7.90 %, -735 m) | - 28:36, 19.51 Kph, VAM 1541 m/h

    So, first of all, great that gramps releases his data, others should do the same. Now it is time to interpret this data. Horner is equalling his power output of Mende 2010 on a climb twice as long, in the third week of a GT versus the second week of a GT. Horner did not have to play domestique any longer for Armstrong when Armstrong had cracked the days before.

    Côte de la Croix-Neuve (Montée Laurent Jalabert) - Mende:
    Average grade: 9.5 %
    Length: 3.32 km
    Height start: 737 m
    Height top: 1054 m
    Elevation: 317 m

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QXUKXzO91GI#t=3735

    versus

    Pena Cabarga
    Average grade: 9.4 %
    Length: 6 km
    Height start: 5 m
    Height top: 566 m
    Elevation: 561 m

    http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/vuelta-ciclista-a-espana-2013/ascension-integra-pena-cabarga/2017644/



    424 watts even with a downhill section in it. Crazy stuff.
    ''Chris averaged 425 watts in the final 6 kilometers uphill with a 744 watt maximum output.''
    SRM puts him at 65kg - I doubt this is correct - that would give him only 11,45w/k maximum output.

    Its almost as good as the famous 2011 Sierra Road climb:
    5 km
    DISTANCE
    550 hm
    TOTAL VERTICAL CLIMB


    Further data for gramps here:
    http://intern.srm.de/index.php/us/srm-blog/road/639-chris-horners-srm-daten-tour-of-california-2011

    If he hadnt been involved in that crash what might have happened in that 2011 Tour?

    Next.

    Actually, no next, it is too funny as it is.
     :evil:



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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #128 on: September 15, 2013, 10:07 »
    from Popovych's recent blog:

    Quote
    (gt) For 4 km from the finish learned that Horner still took a second, and we won the Vuelta. A strong sense of victory is not present, probably because of all the rumors that go around us. This whole situation is depressing and gave a precipitate. This morning, approached the kid and asked, they say, are not you afraid? And why should we be scared? Everyone gets the job done, and are doing what we are told. If someone cheats, it will be on his conscience and his accomplices.

    there's also something about doping talk about Horner in general further up there. Maybe killswitch can offer a more accurate translation again.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #129 on: September 15, 2013, 10:20 »
    Horner may be pretty ancient, but at least when it comes to releasing data he is leading the way, so chapeau to him.

    This is an interesting one. Obviously that comment is very flawed as you say, but if it wasn't for Horner's age I would expect him to be performing better in a cleaner peloton than he would have been whilst racing in the dirtier peloton. His age is inexplicable unfortunately.
    Pffffffffff without Strava KOM segment this is zero achievement :D
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #130 on: September 15, 2013, 10:23 »
    http://m.bt.dk/?article=26832348-Bekymrende-tal-Vueltaens-olding-vaekker-opsigt

    Apperently Horners oxygen intake has been calculated to be 92-97ml/kg/min to be able to do what he did clean, vs. 90ml/kg/min for Froome at the Tour, conclution Horner's current form is better than Froome was at the tour. And this is not even Horner's best form, according to him, if he can be clean and compete at 92-97ml/kg/min, then when his name was mentioned in the USADA how good would he have been then? strange...
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #131 on: September 15, 2013, 12:19 »
    As far as 40 year olds performing well, Haile just run the half marathon in 1.00.40 which is about as close to the world record in that discipline as Horner was to Heras's time on Angliru.

    Now its a very different career path of course. Haile has been dominating long distance since his mid 20's. He was the greatest for a while, and is the most well known African athlete in history.

    Horner only started riding in his mid 20's.

    So maybe that plays into his hands, not having done as much earlier.

    Though of course Haile likely was doping too and maybe still is doping.

    Just a comparison.

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  • Murrjt

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #132 on: September 15, 2013, 15:58 »
    Hello,

    Do people think that Horner's win given his age, links to Armstrong and him possibly being a redacted rider in the Reasoned decision will make some people in the press start openly questioning him and maybe following on from that the new clean cycling narrative?

    Thanks
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #133 on: September 15, 2013, 16:42 »
    Hello,

    Do people think that Horner's win given his age, links to Armstrong and him possibly being a redacted rider in the Reasoned decision will make some people in the press start openly questioning him and maybe following on from that the new clean cycling narrative?

    Thanks

    More than the press hunting him I think USADA might want to make sure they catch this one fresh if there is anything, with his name in the report, I wonder if USADA will start investigating.

    I'm guessing the people voting 'no' would have no trouble believing Horner if he was 32 instead of 42.

    Not really the USADA link combined with him being the best he ever been, if he didn't get better by juicing, why did he do it? serious questions needs asking.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #134 on: September 15, 2013, 16:55 »
    Hello,

    Do people think that Horner's win given his age, links to Armstrong and him possibly being a redacted rider in the Reasoned decision will make some people in the press start openly questioning him and maybe following on from that the new clean cycling narrative?

    Thanks

    In short, no. If questions were ever going to be asked, they should already have started.

    This is going to be another of those cases that feeds growing disaffection with mainstream cycling media.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #135 on: September 15, 2013, 17:18 »
    Well if USADA had info on him, seems strange he hasn't be banned.

    And no I'm not a Horner fan, just finding it odd that Froome fans believe in their man but have no problem 'attacking' Horner.

    Could be an interesting couple of months. USADA have tested Chris pretty heavily recently. 16 times last year, 5 times in the first three months of this year, another three times between April and June. In total the way its going USADA will have about 30 samples from Chris over a two year period.

    Theyve certainly stepped it up since the investigation of cycling. Wouldnt surprise me in the slightest for USADA to hit him with something down the line.
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  • Arb

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #136 on: September 15, 2013, 17:21 »
    Seems pretty weird that he'd be keen to hang around the US despite the pressure, the UCI probably get him OoC 3-4 times a year in Europe.
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  • killswitch

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #137 on: September 15, 2013, 17:23 »
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #138 on: September 15, 2013, 17:34 »
    Could be an interesting couple of months. USADA have tested Chris pretty heavily recently. 16 times last year, 5 times in the first three months of this year, another three times between April and June. In total the way its going USADA will have about 30 samples from Chris over a two year period.

    Theyve certainly stepped it up since the investigation of cycling. Wouldnt surprise me in the slightest for USADA to hit him with something down the line.

    It would be a bit unfair though to change the results of the Vuelta over something like that imo. If 1 rider is getting all these extra tests and his opponents are not.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #139 on: September 15, 2013, 19:06 »
    It's not really anyone else's fault that Horner is so absurdly suspicious though.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #140 on: September 15, 2013, 20:03 »
    On USADA not punishing Horner, if we assume that he is rider 15 that Levi said doped is there any other testimony against him? Obviously the people that received 6 months bans admitted to doing things illegal and in Lance's case there were numerous testimonies against him as well as other evidence.

    If it is just Levi is that enough to warrant a ban or if they were able to ban him and Horner appealed would it be upheld?

    I'm not saying it is only Levi I don't know but asking a question.

    It isn't but they might have found motivation for digging with his Vuelta win, they got Armstrong because he was the big fish, USADA might want to go fishing again.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #141 on: September 15, 2013, 20:07 »
    Well if USADA had info on him, seems strange he hasn't be banned.

    And no I'm not a Horner fan, just finding it odd that Froome fans believe in their man but have no problem 'attacking' Horner.

    If Froome was a  middle-aged bald guy, I'd have no trouble attacking him either  :D

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #142 on: September 15, 2013, 21:36 »
    So where are we?  Are we at 1992?  The race has gone crazy. (Which year was it that Big Mig stuffed everyone for minutes in the long TT?  Perhaps that was 94?)  We all knew it was wrong but with steroids and the stuff from the last two decades none of the performances could be explained.  As riders went on the new gear, so they became competitive.  Other riders just were no longer competitive and we witnessed a lot of truncated careers. Importantly the testing was irrelevant and remained so until 2002ish and by the time an effective test came into force, the riders knew how to defeat it. 

    Froome was very confident he was not going to be exposed, so it is either something giving a legal advantage or illegal but not outlawed or illegal with no test on the horizon. 

    My own feelings are that this is a generation that is going to slip the net. 
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #143 on: September 15, 2013, 22:59 »
    from Popovych's recent blog:

    there's also something about doping talk about Horner in general further up there. Maybe killswitch can offer a more accurate translation again.
    Relevant bits:
    - he writes first about the team GC - always a big goal for Discovery/Astana/RS
    - was very happy about Kiriyenka's victory on Pena Cabarga
    - talks about the accusations against Horner - Popo's saying that Horner bettered the previous record on the climb by 20 seconds not by 1 or even 2 minutes. He thinks that it's normal but doesn't want to defend or accuse anyone. He says he couldn't understand why everyone who wins a major race is labeled as a doper. Riders from the other teams were coming up to RS riders and saying RS were cheating.
    - On the next day to Naranco Popo was very impressed with the hard work of Katusha and that Purito got a fully deserved victory for their efforts. RS and Horner didn't think about attacking as he was thinking about Angliru so Popo was very surprised to learn Horner had gapped Nibali and taken the red jersey.
    - for him, Irizar and Rast the stage to Angliru was all about getting Horner safely to the foot of Cordal. He didn't understand why Movistar were working so hard. Popo was asking the fans in the final 6 kms to push him. He was told at 4 km from the finish Horner had finished second on the stage and won the Vuelta.  The team didn't enjoy the victory very much due to all the rumors and accusations which ruined the atmosphere and left a bad taste in his mouth. The next morning his teammates? (not sure about that) asked him if he was afraid?
    "And why should we be scared? Everyone is doing what he's told and gets the job done. If someone cheats, it will be on his conscience and his accomplices. "
    - He complains about the chaotic organization of the Vuelta and the incredibly long transfers by bus every day.

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  • Joachim

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #144 on: September 16, 2013, 06:14 »
     

    Froome was very confident he was not going to be exposed, so it is either something giving a legal advantage or illegal but not outlawed or illegal with no test on the horizon. 

    My own feelings are that this is a generation that is going to slip the net.

    I'm inclined to agree.

    With Froome, my feelings are that if it was assisted, it was something not (yet) banned. With Horner, my feelings are that he has found out about it too.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #145 on: September 16, 2013, 08:15 »
    I'm inclined to agree.

    With Froome, my feelings are that if it was assisted, it was something not (yet) banned. With Horner, my feelings are that he has found out about it too.

    Honestly Froome's domination was overrated, Purito wasn't in shape at the start of the tour, Valverde got dropped, and is not as good as Froome either way, Contador is not him self after his comeback. Quintana is young and wasn't allowed to ride his own chance to begin with.

    Horner is something else, a rider better than ever compared to him self not just to others, that has the Levi affidavit against him, not a good sign. Honestly the way Nibali attacked was crazy. Horner hung on to everything then attacked. Seems like some old school stuff to me.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #146 on: September 16, 2013, 09:13 »

    ahh the irony

    anyway a sh*t storm in a tea cup is brewing  :s
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #148 on: September 16, 2013, 09:27 »


    The Chris Horner Vuelta miracle

    The author needs to remember that those who are putting out these user-driven power estimates are not saying they prove that anyone dopes. They are trying to show how realistic the performances are when compared with well-documented norms and limits. They're not saying Horner doped. Such inferences are drawn by others.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #149 on: September 16, 2013, 09:36 »
    ahh the irony

    anyway a sh*t storm in a tea cup is brewing  :s

    to be fair, when the vampires came to take his blood at 5 or 6 in the morning, Horner propably was still in the pub

    but it's still a whereabout violation of course
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