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Is Horner's Vuelta win believeable, in terms of clean racing, in your opinion?


Gotland

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Re: Chris Horner
« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2013, 11:40 »
We don't know what the profile proves more than imho no extreme power output for a longer period of time. I guess the ones who are in the know probably will tell us if there's something wrong with the performance.  Moreover, we can't validate his performance because the important variables to do so are not available. The crude measures of performance calculation that are out there are way to rough to validate a single performance on a single stage.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #61 on: September 06, 2013, 11:58 »
    True that Gotland.
    And you dont need numbers to tell that Mustafa Sayar was not only on Baklava this year of Turkey. I was stoned when saw that :D
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #62 on: September 06, 2013, 12:18 »
    And you dont need numbers to tell that Mustafa Sayar was not only on Baklava this year of Turkey. I was stoned when saw that :D

    I was going to hit the like-button but then I realised too much Baklava and drugs are bad for you in two different ways  ;)
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #63 on: September 06, 2013, 12:27 »
    I was going to hit the like-button but then I realised too much Baklava and drugs are bad for you in two different ways  ;)
    So true :evil:
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #64 on: September 06, 2013, 12:47 »
    too much Baklava? There's nothing like that
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #65 on: September 06, 2013, 13:29 »
    too much Baklava? There's nothing like that

    I guess Baklava intake could be described with the following function: Bintake is a function of x where x is hrs on bike -->f(hrs_onbike). So yes there is a limit  :D

    Edit: Sorry for completely derailing the Chris Horner thread.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #66 on: September 06, 2013, 13:40 »
    ... too much Baklava and drugs ...

    Yeah, that's how Elvis checked out, isn't it?  :S :D
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #67 on: September 07, 2013, 10:48 »
    So begins the next phase of the power algorithmn holy grail quest

    http://twitter.com/festinaboy/status/376277298682413056

    Not exactly scientific methods and hardly encouraging others to share data.

    "Oops, my theory isn't working - someone must be telling porkies, my theory must be correct"
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #68 on: September 07, 2013, 10:58 »
    So begins the next phase of the power algorithmn holy grail quest

    http://twitter.com/festinaboy/status/376277298682413056

    Not exactly scientific methods and hardly encouraging others to share data.

    "Oops, my theory isn't working - someone must be telling porkies, my theory must be correct"
    Thats where Grappe, you know, should step in. He works for FDJ isnt it?

    If Pinot was doing 5.9w/k it is not possible for Horner to do 6.05w/k. Horner being 65 kg? Seriously doubt that. Robo Horner.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #69 on: September 07, 2013, 16:43 »
    Thats where Grappe, you know, should step in. He works for FDJ isnt it?

    If Pinot was doing 5.9w/k it is not possible for Horner to do 6.05w/k. Horner being 65 kg? Seriously doubt that. Robo Horner.

    Grappe and Vayer don't really get on well but neither seems to want to step on the other's shoes. ;)

    Like a royal prince, Pinot has grown up in public. A lot of people have been involved in his development since the age of 17 and, though I wouldn't claim that as a guarantee of anything, it seems like an awful lot of folks would have to be part of the conspiracy in favour of a kid who, though he was already posting excellent numbers years before he turned pro, doesn't really look like a serious GT contender and can't TT for toffee.
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #70 on: September 07, 2013, 17:06 »
    Grappe and Vayer don't really get on well but neither seems to want to step on the other's shoes. ;)
    Well, we kinda know because of sir Dave; one is an expert and the other one is a pseudo scientist ;)

    Like a royal prince, Pinot has grown up in public. A lot of people have been involved in his development since the age of 17 and, though I wouldn't claim that as a guarantee of anything, it seems like an awful lot of folks would have to be part of the conspiracy in favour of a kid who, though he was already posting excellent numbers years before he turned pro, doesn't really look like a serious GT contender and can't TT for toffee.
    I think you misread me, given the timedifference - one minute plus - and the watts per kilo difference it is not possible Pinot did a 5.9 for Horner to do a 6.05 w/k. Thats what I meant.

    Back on Chris, great form in the rain today, gramps keeps going. Will he podium?
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #71 on: September 07, 2013, 17:18 »
    Well, we kinda know because of sir Dave; one is an expert and the other one is a pseudo scientist ;)
    I think you misread me, given the timedifference - one minute plus - and the watts per kilo difference it is not possible Pinot did a 5.9 for Horner to do a 6.05 w/k. Thats what I meant.

    Back on Chris, great form in the rain today, gramps keeps going. Will he podium?

    Oh, I understood you, I just wanted to back up your point by adding that, if Vayer wanted to attack Pinot's performance, then he was attacking a lot of (his own) people and a very recent and well-documented trail of paper which presents us with a rider of more modest abilities than most among our current crop of GT winners. So Horner was bulldogging.

    And yeah, I think Horner will podium. He may not be better than Nibali - I still think the American looked a bit smoother today until the last, say, 400m - but he's a whole lot better than all the others behind him right now.

    Unless he falls apart while J-Rod gets better (as he did in the Tour) and Valverde has no more days like this, then I'd say with no more TTs to come that Hot Dog Horner will cut the mustard by next Sunday.

    I think the GC will remain as it is now or, if any changes will occur, it will be Piti who will swap with J-Rod. And I think this will be the climax of Horner's career, the one big statement he always wanted to make.
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  • Tuart

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #72 on: September 08, 2013, 03:54 »
    If Piti and Purito continue at their current levels into the third week as well then this will be a ridiculous Vuelta.

    Bring back Basso!
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #73 on: September 08, 2013, 18:42 »
     Have to say that Papy and Kiserlovski are pulling off a pretty fair impression of the Dawg and Richie.
    At least Piti and Purito managed to hang on today when Kiser was called to the front to repeat yesterday's party piece.
     The Hornet seems so impressed he can hardly stop smiling on these finishing climbs.

     I fear that somewhere along the mountain line, Nibali is going to be eating the old boy's dust.

     Still, it's good to see the role reversal being played out elsewhere.
     Seems when it boils down to it, most folks share the same "flexible" convictions.
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  • « Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 19:57 by Mellow Velo »
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #74 on: September 08, 2013, 19:41 »
    :horner

    That is all.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #75 on: September 08, 2013, 23:44 »
    agreed the answer from Rogers was interesting in that it seems they tried once and that is enough

    where Froome is still getting questions.

    Velonews especially should have learnt from last time , and keep digging and reporting

    Well Neal Rogers is an Armstrong apologist even though he says he's not.  Why else would you tweet and post that you "thanks @lancearmstrong for the ride" etc.....
    he's a name dropper and proud when Lance acknowledges him....:angry

    ...getting back to Papy he is becoming the energizer bunny!  recovery is as astonishing as his hammering of everyone
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #76 on: September 09, 2013, 00:20 »
    So I am really confused about the lack of accusations coming out of the media:
    - I can't find anything in the main cycling press
    - I can't find anything in the main UK dailies.
    - ITV hinted that at a minimum, Horner should be quizzed on the rest day. Nothing from British Eurosport.

    Itv did quiz him. Well they gave the usual - "here is a chance to explain why you are clean" question, to which Horner gave the usual - I "train hard and release my data, data says im clean", answer.

    British Eurosport always avoid talking about doping. Harmonn did used to be full hate mode on say Di Luca and Vino but this died down (maybe ES told him to cool it). Cant speak for kirby cos he is a wackjob who blabs nonesence 2 hours a day, but Harmonn in the last 2 years would, on those occasions that doping came up, just say that there are people who like x rider and people that don't. Kelly certainly aint going to call anyone out lol.

    The UK dailies aren't mentioning anything because they don't care about the Vuelta. When Wiggins Froome came 2nd 3rd it barely got any mention from the UK papers, so now that there isnt even any uk interest, the papers could give a flip.

    As for the main cycling press, im not familiar with it really. Have they attacked other riders before? I know the circles on twitter I occasionaly hang out with, basically the group that has gotten notoriety over the last few years for going after sky with "no evidence" who wiggins adressed as bone idle masturbators etc,  are all laughing at Horner. Im not going to namedrop random twitter users, though they have varying degrees of popularity, some even made it onto bbc interviews and what not, but  eg also the journos Vayer and Maynard from LeMonde, have been very active in their ridicule of Horner.  Even the Contador fans, quite surprisingly imo because Horner unlike Froome isn't a rival to Contador.
      Kimmage also made his first tweet since the tour today and said he doesn't understand wiggins froome and horner.

    So I think, considering this is the Vuelta which in the English speaking world gets about the same coverage as the Tour of Azerbajan, Horner has been getting questions coming at him from exactly the areas where one would expect and in exactly the quantity one could expect.

    One could add also that Horner isnt winning, ergo gets less press for that as well.

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #77 on: September 09, 2013, 17:02 »
    McQuaid sees nothing suspicious in Horner performances
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #78 on: September 10, 2013, 13:04 »
    The only thing really suspicious about Horner is his age. If he had done this even 10 years younger, there would still be massive question marks. Transforming into a world class climber previously having been decent to good aged 41 is ridiculous.

    Admittedly that's all we really have to draw on  based on his performances at the Vuelta (discounting links in the USADA Reasoned Decision etc.) but that's still something enormous. As far as circumstantial evidence goes, it's virtually overwhelming proof of doping. He's more clear cut than Froome and Porte.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #79 on: September 11, 2013, 20:09 »
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    Dim

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #80 on: September 12, 2013, 02:07 »
    Heres an interesting one on Horner.

    USADA TESTING
    2013 - 8 tests so far
    2012 - 16 tests
    2011 - 6
    2010 - 7
    2009 - 7
    2008 - 3
    2007 - 2
    2006 - 1
    2005 - 2

    Just why did USADA test horner so many times in 2012...?

    Maybe something said something in the USADA testimonies.
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  • Arb

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #81 on: September 12, 2013, 02:22 »
    And yet no positives!!11!!11!1
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  • al_pacino

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #82 on: September 12, 2013, 12:41 »
    Heres an interesting one on Horner.

    USADA TESTING
    2013 - 8 tests so far
    2012 - 16 tests
    2011 - 6
    2010 - 7
    2009 - 7
    2008 - 3
    2007 - 2
    2006 - 1
    2005 - 2

    Just why did USADA test horner so many times in 2012...?

    Maybe something said something in the USADA testimonies.

    A quick CQ check suggests he raced all 3 big stage races in the US in 2012. Would that have an impact?
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #83 on: September 12, 2013, 16:10 »
    A quick CQ check suggests he raced all 3 big stage races in the US in 2012. Would that have an impact?

    nope. because USADA couldnt do the testing at the big american races. The UCI did it.. they actively prevented USADA from attending
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #84 on: September 12, 2013, 16:38 »
    According to Danish TV2, Horner beat the previous record on Peña Cabarga (17'00" by Purito), climbing it in 16'38".
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #85 on: September 12, 2013, 16:40 »
    Ha ha that was retarded.

    Horner = best climber in the world , none of this 2nd sh*t.

    Record time for Pena , nice  :D

     ;)
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #86 on: September 12, 2013, 16:45 »
    That's blown my theory out of the water. All Vuelta Horner's been avoiding the big gradients on the bends while Nibali's been riding straight up them. So Mr Logic says Horner will struggle on the steep stuff and Nibali will prosper.

    But for some reason it didn't work out like that.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #87 on: September 12, 2013, 17:11 »
    There is no way of looking around it..

    Horner is the best climber in the race. Take that as you may, he is effectively two stages away from claiming what could be an ultimately ridiculous win and may plunge cycling all the way back in a direction it didn't want to go. I realy appreciated Inrngs take on the matter, which really says it as it is.

    And even saying this from a perspective as a Froome fan, I would really love it if the GT winners were just obviously honest and clean. There seems to be so much suspicion and doubt at every Grand Tour nowadays.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #88 on: September 12, 2013, 17:42 »
    Just watched the whole of Pena Cabarga on the re-run. Horner eternally out of the saddle and a sprint at the end that Sean Yates would call either "incredible" or "unbelievable" or both.
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  • Blackbandit222

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #89 on: September 12, 2013, 17:53 »
    All hail Horner, the future of American cycling!

    The next Lance and Floyd!

    The 2nd coming of Pantani!

     ;)
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