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Is Horner's Vuelta win believeable, in terms of clean racing, in your opinion?


Dim

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Re: Chris Horner
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2013, 18:18 »
Heres an interesting dig into the past for you.

Matt DeCanio who some will have heard of. Former US cyclist, former Doper, confessed and set himself on the road to redemption. He was like a marginally insane Landis, and probably would have had 30 twitter accounts had twitter been around then. Was sued by  Kayle Leogrande  who is also slightly insane.

Anyway, a forum post of his from 2005 in which Horners name comes up.

http://ccforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2992

According to Matt, Phil Z who was one of Papps customers claimed that Horner kept EPO, HGH and Testosterone in his fridge.

Quote
After Phil Zajicek failed his test in China he called Matt on the phone and told him that Chris Horner had offered for him to do EPO, HGH, and testosterone. "You don't have the goods on Horner? He keeps HGH, EPO, and Testosterone in his fridge. He told me he wanted me to take it to improve my performance but I never did." Phil believed that Horner was doping up Justin England.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #91 on: September 12, 2013, 18:23 »


    And even saying this from a perspective as a Froome fan, I would really love it if the GT winners were just obviously honest and clean. There seems to be so much suspicion and doubt at every Grand Tour nowadays.

    What does "obviously honest and clean" mean?
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Dim

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #92 on: September 12, 2013, 18:29 »
    If you want some background on DeCanio this article is excellent.
    http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2006-07-27/news/tour-de-dope/

    The guys a  loon, but back in 05/06 he was certainly considered certifiable with some of the things he was saying. But looking back now, 7 years after that article, its pretty much all accepted now.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #93 on: September 12, 2013, 18:34 »
    What does "obviously honest and clean" mean?

     I take it to mean independently and effectively tested regularly, to a standard to which there could be no dispute. How else remove all suspicion?

     Anyhow, looks to me as if Quintana will have to wait another few years before he can lay claim to being the best climber in the world. Chris has made that all important, one place move.
     
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Dim

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #94 on: September 12, 2013, 18:40 »
    And this one from him in 2005 was interesting as well
    Quote
    "Over the last 3 months my life has been a roller coaster. But over the
    last 9 years my life has been a war. My war started the second I stepped
    foot into my Italian apartment. My war started when I saw my first needle.
    At the age of 19 drugs were first introduced to me. They were presented in
    a fashion that drugs were the road to becoming a champion.

    My coach was the former Italian National Team Coach. He helped develop
    Mario Cipollini into a world-class sprinter. This coach along with my
    general manager ran a solid medical program. As a rider on the team we were
    instructed to take EPO, HGH, and cortisone. Every single race I denied it.
    Every single race I struggled to finish. At training camp I was the
    strongest rider on the team, and 4 weeks later I became the weakest.

    Because I refused to take drugs, I was given a steel bike, I was not paid,
    and I was treated like dirt. Talked down to. In some cases starved. I was
    constantly yelled at and not encouraged by any of my top 15 results.
    Instead it was a shrug of the shoulders and them telling me so what?

    For 2 seasons I put myself through this hell trying to beat the drugs. This
    was when riders had hematocrits in the 60s. All enjoyment I had from the
    sport of cycling had left. 2 years before I was the national champion on
    top of the world, and now I was living in hell.

    I quit the sport and went to college but my dream never left me. 1 year
    later, I began training again spending upwards of 9 hours on the bike. This
    got me back on the national team and after a strong performance at worlds a
    spot on the Division 2 European pro team Linda McCartney.

    When I arrived drugs were not talked about. But not a month later, my then
    roommate Ben Brooks who now rides for Jelly Belly traveled to Spain to buy
    over 20 vials of EPO which he took for racing. These drugs sat in our
    shared refrigerator. We both trained at different times of the day. Even
    without me taking drugs our performances were very similar and it was a toss
    up for a spot in the Giro d'Italia. I prayed I would get the starting
    position. I was denied. I was heart broken again. I returned to America
    briefly to finish up my schooling at APP State and returned to Europe in the
    summer.

    Once back in Europe all the guys on the team talked about drugs. Everyone
    admitted to taking them, except one other rider. I tried my best to beat
    the drugs training again up to 9'50 minutes riding 14 cols in the Pyrenees.
    But I wasn't winning races and was not invited back to the team.

    I signed with Saturn. I thought America was clean, I was wrong. I had
    spent the last 7 years racing in Europe and had no idea the drug culture was
    also in America. My struggles with doping would not leave my side. After
    being asked to help with an injection for my teammate Trent Klasna my heart
    was broken a 3rd time.

    I left Saturn for Prime Alliance the only team I had hopes would be clean.
    I raced my hardest and finally got 2 yellow jerseys. However, after yelling
    at team Mapei that I was racing clean, I was black listed. I had officially
    lost my chances to return to Europe clean. They knew I would tell the
    stories.

    2003 I had lost all hope for life and the sport of cycling, which I loved.
    I started to smoke cigarettes, drink lots of alcohol and smoke marijuana to
    kill the pain of my reality. My friend David Clinger told me stories of the
    drug use on US Postal Service and I finally decided to cave in. I started
    to take testosterone in the spring and EPO just before Housatonic. But when
    I took these drugs, I hated what I had finally become. I stopped after 3
    shots, and smoked pot the remainder of the season to take away the pain.

    During the fall of 2003 I walked away from racing, and swore it off getting
    myself off of pot. I decided to try to make a little cash so I could keep
    my car, and got into coaching. That was when I had the email confrontation
    with Rick Crawford who approached my friend David Clinger to do a deal for
    coaching which involved drugs including EPO and blood spinners. This was
    when Stolen Underground was born.

    From that day on, I have been doing everything in my ability to clean up the
    sport. This ridiculous web site that lacks dignity and a high plane of
    conduct has been my weapon. I have used this weapon to fight doping and to
    change the sport. It is 100 percent real. I speak with USADA on the phone.

    I have been banned for having this site because it lacks dignity and a high
    plane of conduct. However if this site had those things, you wouldn't be
    here right now because you would have never heard about it. This entire
    catastrophe is to get attention and to change the sport. I could not let it
    go, because if I did my dream of cleaning up the sport would seem to go with
    it. My voice was to be taken away. That is how drugs, lies, and corruption
    continue to flourish.

    I have a real chance to help open eyes and change the sport if you will
    support me. I know how to fix the problems and I have the courage to stand
    up to the corrupt. I am not scared of anyone or anything. When I see the
    drugs, the lies, and the corruption I get a burning desire to eliminate
    them. They are the reasons for the pain in my life. I want that pain to go
    away.

    I need your support because I am losing the battle. USADA is going to
    sanction me and I have lost my contract. I need your help. Please email
    them and tell them to get me back on the bike. I have the courage to stand
    up to the drugs, I have the courage to stand up to the pros, I have the
    courage to stand up to the system. HELP ME DO IT. HELP ME MAKE THE
    CHANGES.

    There needs to be immunity so more people can come forward to tell their
    stories. Right now there is too much at stake to risk it. I am the only
    person in the world who has admitted EPO use without failing a test, or the
    police finding drugs that I know of. I made the sacrifice, now please
    sacrifice a little of your time to send an email in support.

    This isn't a trick to get me racing for my own personal agenda. I could
    have stayed a pro instead of coming forward to help make the changes.
    Please support me. My fear is that once I am gone so will be the fight
    against those who will continue to corrupt future generations. Please use
    me as your weapon to fight these people. Please support me, I get 1000
    visitors a day here, if everyone writes in USADA they have to listen. They
    do read all of your emails and it is ok to send them. Kurt also has to
    listen. You guys are my only hope and I am relying on you to use your best
    judgement to support me."



    I'm forwarding this to USACycling with the request that they actively
    investigate his allegations as to Postal, Saturnn Prime Alliance and the
    riders named. Now I'll try holing my breath. ;-)
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  • Blackbandit222

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #95 on: September 12, 2013, 19:05 »
    If you want some background on DeCanio this article is excellent.
    http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2006-07-27/news/tour-de-dope/

    The guys a  loon, but back in 05/06 he was certainly considered certifiable with some of the things he was saying. But looking back now, 7 years after that article, its pretty much all accepted now.

    LOL, I thought you might of known DeCanio!!!
    Quote
    ...race as a pro for a British team sponsored by Linda McCartney Foods ...

    He's my age, I remember when he returned to States w/ Saturn rocking sweatbands and that Roadrunner tattoo.  Honestly, had never heard of him before other then name on McCartney roster.

    (Clinger pre face tat)
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  • « Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 00:23 by Blackbandit222 »
    Sagan supporter.

    froome19

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #96 on: September 12, 2013, 19:56 »
    What does "obviously honest and clean" mean?
    Maybe the wording wasn't great, but I meant a rider who isn't ridiculously old, has had an unusual development or posting climbing times which could suggest PED usage.

    Ideally the answer would be MV's but that is still a far way off.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #97 on: September 12, 2013, 20:49 »
    What does "obviously honest and clean" mean?

    Nibali.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #98 on: September 12, 2013, 21:01 »
    Maybe the wording wasn't great, but I meant a rider who isn't ridiculously old, has had an unusual development or posting climbing times which could suggest PED usage.

    Ideally the answer would be MV's but that is still a far way off.

    Even then they could be doping.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #99 on: September 12, 2013, 21:25 »
    Even then they could be doping.
    True but the commotion over them would be less.
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  • Blackbandit222

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #100 on: September 13, 2013, 09:41 »
     :s  Cobo's win two years ago was pretty surprising also. {as was Froome's (2010 2nd @ TT Nats, 5th @ Commonwealth) 2nd place in the time trial, including beating team captain Wiggins (3x IP WC, 2x Olympic IP winner, 1x Jr IP WC) as well as Cancellara (3x TT WC, 2x Jr TT WC, 1x U23 TT WC, 1x Olympic TT winner, 4x TDF Prologue winner) & Phinney (2x IP WC, 1x Jr TT WC, U23 TT WC & Jr IP WC) in a TT}
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  • Tuart

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #101 on: September 13, 2013, 10:18 »
    Listing a neo-pro up there with Cancellara and Wiggins :D

    It's all a bit absurd at the moment this Vuelta and thoroughly underwhelming.

    Horner is doing things no man his age has ever done before in cycling even at lower levels. Rebellin has been one-upped big time.

    The next best are Purito and Piti, both of whom were peaking for the Tour, and raced it in top form. So how have they been able to keep in top condition so long? And they're targeting the Worlds? :s

    So where does that rank Nibali?
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #102 on: September 13, 2013, 11:47 »
    Velocast´s the problem with Horner

    http://velocast.cc/the-problem-with-chris-horner
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #103 on: September 13, 2013, 12:55 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gazzetta-dello-sport-scrutinizes-horners-power-data-at-the-vuelta

    Interesting.

    A 41 year old with a higher VAM than Contador and Rodriguez last year...
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    sublimit

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #104 on: September 13, 2013, 14:32 »
    Horner making Mustafa Sayar look believable IMO        With the same big gears but out of the saddle. 

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  • Dim

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #105 on: September 13, 2013, 16:31 »
    Nibali

    Quote
    “I can’t climb at 500 watts. I was going at 430 watts and that guy accelerated. What could I do?”

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/horner-pushes-the-power-numbers-at-the-vuelta_302720
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #106 on: September 13, 2013, 16:47 »
    Quote
    Add temperature, wind, road conditions, normalized VAM, normalized power; we know aerodynamic drags of our riders, and even with that it’s hard, so when people start saying, we’ll just assume this and that, come on, guys, if you have to have true scientific rigor, you would know what you’re doing is not scientifically.

    Good point from Brailsford on the factors apart from VAM which need to be taken into account
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  • batchuba

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #107 on: September 13, 2013, 17:17 »
    While throwing numbers about can help, I generally find the most reliable method of determining whether someone is doped up is to simply ask "is it preposterous?". Preposterous in cycling is bad. Horner is very preposterous right now.

    I'm trying, for entertainment, to think of a defence for him.
    Lets try this  - he is still fairly one-paced. When he stands up and lays down that acceleration, he maintains that new speed doggedly, rather than going on to gratuitously attack himself in the classic "dopemonster" manner. That sturdy anaerobic plod puts the emphasis on the accumulated muscle endurance in his legs which old guys, if anything, have more of. If an old guy was going to tear sh*t up - that would be the way to go about it.  And another thing..umm..that's all I got.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #108 on: September 13, 2013, 18:28 »
    I think whats telling is most of the cycling "commentators" by that i mean people who talk about cycling rather than those who commentate on tv, have actually given up bothering to say anything. When someone is suspicious but it needs shouting about, if its borderline as to wether their is evidence, people shout and scream. THe whole Horner thing is so preposterous that most people have just given up commenting entirely.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #110 on: September 13, 2013, 21:26 »
    He's not really calling out Horner alone though. Could be directed at any of Roche, Purito, and Horner.
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    Arb

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #111 on: September 14, 2013, 03:15 »
    Message to Papy:  I'm cool with you testing positive, just wait another two days please.
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #112 on: September 14, 2013, 07:54 »
    It is pretty simply actually. When a donk like Santambroglio ups his 'daily vitamins' and is able to follow Nibali in the Giro why wouldnt a 41 year old top ten TdF rider who hasnt raced for months be able to better this?

    So, according to the Nibali quote he was riding at 430 watts at Pena Cabarga, that already is around 7w/k given he is around 62/63 kilo. How much drafting would he be getting there? Not the 30% when on the flat but it would be substantial.

    Nevertheless great freak show.

    Any Spanish here to translate this sentence?
    ''El récord de Horner en Peña Cabarga no tiene mérito,el viento le daba a favor.......y a nosotros en contra!!! Jajajajajajaja!!''

    Edit: when looking at the Vuelta course with the one maybe two mountains per stage this should also been taken into account. Lets see what the Angliru will show us.
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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #114 on: September 14, 2013, 08:39 »
    god the quotes from him and radioshack are just laughable.

    #freakshow  :fp
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #115 on: September 14, 2013, 09:36 »
    god the quotes from him and radioshack are just laughable.

    My personal favorites include:

    "Chris is hitting the same numbers he’s been hitting all of his career." (Considering his name is in the USADA report, is that a good thing?)
    "I know he is doing things the right way, just as he always has" (Same as above)
    "It’s not like Chris is five minutes ahead of Nibali." (A shot at Froome?)
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  • Not Andre Greipel

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #116 on: September 14, 2013, 17:33 »
    All hail Horner, the future of American cycling!

    The next Lance and Floyd!

    The 2nd coming of Pantani!

     ;)

    In the words of HWMNBN -   "NOT NORMAL"
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  • Arb

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #117 on: September 14, 2013, 18:25 »
    Message to Papy:  I'm cool with you testing positive, just wait another two days please.

    It's ok I'm safe now. You can get 100/1 odds of a positive (or crash etc) between now and the podium tomorrow.
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  • Caruut

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #118 on: September 14, 2013, 19:22 »
    It is pretty simply actually. When a donk like Santambroglio ups his 'daily vitamins' and is able to follow Nibali in the Giro why wouldnt a 41 year old top ten TdF rider who hasnt raced for months be able to better this?

    So, according to the Nibali quote he was riding at 430 watts at Pena Cabarga, that already is around 7w/k given he is around 62/63 kilo. How much drafting would he be getting there? Not the 30% when on the flat but it would be substantial.

    Nevertheless great freak show.

    Any Spanish here to translate this sentence?
    ''El récord de Horner en Peña Cabarga no tiene mérito,el viento le daba a favor.......y a nosotros en contra!!! Jajajajajajaja!!''

    Edit: when looking at the Vuelta course with the one maybe two mountains per stage this should also been taken into account. Lets see what the Angliru will show us.

    "Horner's record on Peña Cabarga doesn't have any merit, the wind was helping us..... and against us too!!! Hahahahaha!!"
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  • Caruut

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    Re: Chris Horner
    « Reply #119 on: September 14, 2013, 19:29 »
    My personal favorites include:

    "Chris is hitting the same numbers he’s been hitting all of his career." (Considering his name is in the USADA report, is that a good thing?)
    "I know he is doing things the right way, just as he always has" (Same as above)
    "It’s not like Chris is five minutes ahead of Nibali." (A shot at Froome?)

    It's crazy that the bolded is actually intended as a defence of Horner. Under any normal circumstances, I would expect someone to be saying "The 41-year-old guy isn't doing quite as well as he did when he was younger." This situation is so absurd that we are being reassured that, despite appearances, he's not a far better bike rider than he was 10 years ago.
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