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GMiranda

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Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
« on: September 06, 2013, 23:05 »
Hi

Another thread I create to raise some debate... I have done this successfully in Wielerarchieven, so I decided to create another one here, I think it's interetsing to discuss about some of the names mentioned, riders that promised or appeared to promise on their early careers but never achieved what they could, or what was expected they could do...
So, let's list the names mentioned on that topic:
- Alexi Grewal
- Bill Nickson
- Daniel Willems
- Miguel Morrás
- Fons De Wolf
- Henk Lubberding
- Johan Van der Velde
- Ronny Claes
- Danny Nelissen
- Michel Zanoli
- Janus Kuum
- Willy Vannitsen
- Jos Schils
- Gianbattista Baronchelli
- Jean-François Bernard
- Gianni Bugno
- Jean-Marie Grezet
- Enrique Martinez Heredia
- Leif Mortensen
- Graham Webb
- Dietrich Thurau
- Marco Groppo
- Roy Schuiten
- Bernard Guyot
- Geoff Wiles
- Brian Robinson
- Carlos Contreras
- Álvaro Mejía
- Martín Ramírez
- Pacho Rodríguez
- Gianni Giacomini
- Richard Vivien
- Michel Duchemin
- Eddy Bouwmans
- Jean Jourden
- Daniel Van Ryckeghem
- Guido De Rosso
- Ward Sels
- Bernard Vandekerkhove
- Marcel Maes
- Willy Vekemans
- Wilfried David
- Graham Webb
- Renato Bongioni
- Rini Wagtmans
- Harry Steevens
- Benoni Beheyt
- Roger Swerts
- Gabriel Deloof

So, let's beging hehehhe  :P
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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 01:09 »
    Looking at todays stage and the winner- new French hope, Tour Lav winner, one can't help but think of Romain Sicard.

    Was U23 world champion too.
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    GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #2 on: September 07, 2013, 01:16 »
    Yes, great example
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  • Blackbandit222

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #3 on: September 07, 2013, 02:00 »
     :evil:

    Vandenbroucke





    Post Merge: September 07, 2013, 02:03
    :cheesy

    Cole House

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/american-takes-u23-gp-waregem
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    Post Merge: September 07, 2013, 02:21
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    Post Merge: September 07, 2013, 02:25
      :ouch

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  • « Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 16:35 by Blackbandit222 »
    Sagan supporter.

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    Arb

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #5 on: September 07, 2013, 04:19 »
    Yes, Khatuntsev :(
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 11:01 »
    Jerome Coppel should be in the list. Some of that list should be of the list.
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  • Echoes

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #7 on: September 07, 2013, 13:47 »
    Hi GM,

    I'd remove Gibi Baronchelli. I don't know who named him on Wieler (great forum by the way), but he's had a brilliant career till the end. He's among the all-time greats for me.

    Grewal?  :embarrassed

    Some that sprang to my mind:
    Roy Knickman, Valeer Van Sweevelt (too high expectations, I think), Loretto Petrucci (doomed by Coppi), Gary Clively...

    Edit: oh and I should mention Cyril Gautier too, great guy and talent...

    And in the same trend as Eddy Bouwmans: Edwig Van Hooydonck, Frans Maassen, Gilles Delion, Sammie Moreels, Jim Van de Laer...

    and  Esafosfina?  :lol

    Then you've got those whose unfulfilment were due to accidents. I'm preparing for tomorrow, a biography about one of these. Tragic accident in March 1971 ...  :'(
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    GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #8 on: September 07, 2013, 16:15 »
    Yes, VDB is one of the greatest examples....  :( he was indeed one of the most talented riders from the 90's, and he could have been far more than a classicmen, but psichologically he wasn't strong, and soon fell into doping and depression. It was truly sad....

    About Cole House I have no idea, can you help me?

    Evgueni Petrov could have been a rider for one-week races and top-10 in the GT's, but he never achieved, although he made some good performances at the Giro due to his comabtivity.

    Grabovskyy is another like VDB, it seems he couldn't cope with the pressure and the success of being aa pro, and soon went into parties and drinking, I think he rides now as an amateur with an israeli license.

    Russians have a long story of wasted talents. Khatuntsev, Kolesnikov, Brutt, Ignatiev, Rovny & Co. could have achieved far more, but I think they were overrraced too young.

    Concerning Coppel, I don't know if he could do much better or not... my area is more past riders. But he made a good TDF in 2011 with Sojasun.
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  • GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #9 on: September 07, 2013, 16:22 »
    Hi GM,

    I'd remove Gibi Baronchelli. I don't know who named him on Wieler (great forum by the way), but he's had a brilliant career till the end. He's among the all-time greats for me.

    Grewal?  :embarrassed

    Some that sprang to my mind:
    Roy Knickman, Valeer Van Sweevelt (too high expectations, I think), Loretto Petrucci (doomed by Coppi), Gary Clively...

    Edit: oh and I should mention Cyril Gautier too, great guy and talent...

    And in the same trend as Eddy Bouwmans: Edwig Van Hooydonck, Frans Maassen, Gilles Delion, Sammie Moreels, Jim Van de Laer...

    and  Esafosfina?  :lol

    Then you've got those whose unfulfilment were due to accidents. I'm preparing for tomorrow, a biography about one of these. Tragic accident in March 1971 ...  :'(

    I named Baronchelli. A rider that wins the Baby Giro, in his first Giro put Merckx suffering to hold the lead for 12''; then continues making top-10 and even winning two Lombardias, but no more occasions to fight for the Giro seems quite unfulfilled.

    Why embarrassed by Grewal? I have heard a lot of opinions about him...

    Yes, you mentioned some names I have raised too, that's why I have made this post, I pretend to raise some debate on this. But I deliberately left teh accident-victims apart, I think they belong to other thread.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #10 on: September 07, 2013, 18:35 »
    I named Baronchelli. A rider that wins the Baby Giro, in his first Giro put Merckx suffering to hold the lead for 12''; then continues making top-10 and even winning two Lombardias, but no more occasions to fight for the Giro seems quite unfulfilled.
    By that logic, you'd have to include Damiano Cunego (of the more recent stock). But it's an open secret why his career, on first sight exactly the same to how you describe Baronchelli's (I don't know Baronchelli, I must admit), may look "unfulfilled".
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    GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #11 on: September 07, 2013, 19:05 »
    I generally avoid talking about post-90's riders (and not due to.... :yarr suspect things)., but because it's sometimes early to judge it... But for sure I consider Cunego an unfulfilled promise. Probably, Cunego was olny one more who made some doctor visits  :lll and his mazing Giro in 2004 was a product of those  :yarr ....
    But it's widely believed Cunego was one of the innocent riders, and certainly one that felt roobed of his career due to the  :yarr strange things that hppned on the peloton. I know he's at Lampre, I know there are a lot of trials around Lampre (I'm quite "worried" by Rui Costa, although in terms of havinga  team for him, Lampre was the best choice because he can find his space), but till now he never accused positive or irrgularities on biological passport... for sure this question is for "Dark Side" forum, but I still think that Cunego had a lot of raw talent, and boosted or not, he could have achieved more.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #12 on: September 07, 2013, 21:00 »
    Best keep clear of current riders, I will be forced to include Eddy Boss. :D Going back a bit Id probably question why Claudio Chiappucci never won a grand tour, but then its probably fair to say he exceeded his potential by a great bit.

    The one guy that always sticks up for me from recent British History is Russ Downing. Over 50 wins, including three national championships on the track, one on the road and one as criterium champion. The first Brit to win for Team Sky, but theres always the feeling it could have been so much more, or at least the quality of the wins could have been much higher.

    Just always in the wrong place at the wrong time. First got offered a pro contract with Linda McCartney, but before he could ride for them they went bust (shortly after the giro) so he road as an amatuer with UVCA Troyes in France. Then Francaise des Jeux came along and offered him a ride as a staigaire, but the UCI bless them, blocked it as he had previously held a pro contract (with Linda McCartney) despite not actually competing in a single race as a pro.

     Then he had a chance to ride for one of the best french teams, CC Étupes, who had links to most of the leading french pro teams of the time, but instead he decided to join the aussie Nova cycling (who had Sean Yates as a DS) as a pro. Picked up some good wins for the team but they too went bust.

    He considered quitting but instead returned to the track, picked up two national titles but still got no pro offer so raced in britain and totally dominated. Finally he was offered a big pro contract, 3000 euros a month with a new french team with a big sponsor. Then, two days before announcement of the team was due, the sponsor pulled out.

    Finally in 2007 he got another break, and was signed to American Health Net team (Later United Health Care). This time it was visa problems that cocked him up and he barely got to do any races. So in 2008 back to britain it was, where at the end of the year he finished 2nd in the Tour of Ireland beating up on a lot of big pro riders.

    Took till 2009 at Sky when he finally got an opportunity, and was rewarded as the first Brit to win a stage for the team.

    Always wonder what would his career have been like if Linda McCartney had stayed around, or if he had got the staigaire ride at FdeJ, or hed gone to  CC Étupes, or if he hadnt had visa issues. 31 years old was a bit late to be making his world tour debut.

    Good thing about Russ is he appears to have no regrets, always smiling, just happy to be riding his bike. I know he was gutted to be dropped by Sky, but hes doing ok at Netapp Endura. But a big case of what could have been.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #13 on: September 07, 2013, 21:31 »
    Melchor MAURI



    Mauri was Spain's first real time trial specialist before Indurain and Olano. Like Indurain, the Catalan carved out his advantages against the clock and then relied heavily on his team and his stamina to hang on over the high mountains.

    Even so, it was still a surprise when he won the 1991 Vuelta from bigger names Indurain and Lejarreta, the former just months away from his first of five Tour wins but very much beaten in the Vuelta TTs and the latter unable to completely crack either of his heavier opponents on the climbs that favoured him.

    A GT champion who now commanded attention, Mauri seemed destined for great things in a still rather democratic ONCE team, but as old favourites Lejarreta and Chozas declined, younger upstarts Zulle and Jalabert would step in to snatch the limelight. Mauri left ONCE for two seasons and when he returned, he seemed to be content to target time trial stages in short races, performing with modest success throughout the rest of his respectably long career.
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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #14 on: September 07, 2013, 21:49 »
    Eric Caritoux



    Not really unfulfilled, but it probably looked like it at the time. ;)

    Another one-hit wonder in the Vuelta (1st on GC in 1984), Caritoux was a handy all-rounder whose singular achievement was completely overshadowed in his home country by the golden years of dashing youngster Laurent Fignon.

    In just his third pro year, Caritoux survived relentless attacks in the mountains and rode into Madrid just six seconds ahead of home hero, the luckless Alberto Fernandez, who would die later that year in a car accident.

    The Frenchmen, who was uncharitably billed by one French magazine as "the famous unknown", promptly returned to the relative anonymity of mid-pack racing and would count two consecutive national championship jerseys as the only other real highlights of his career.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #15 on: September 07, 2013, 22:19 »
    Looking at todays stage and the winner- new French hope, Tour Lav winner, one can't help but think of Romain Sicard.

    Was U23 world champion too.
    Sicard has had what has turned out to be permanent problems with his knee.
    It seems like it is something which will not go away and he may have to continue racing with it for the entirety of his career.
    So unfortunately I don't think we will be seeing Sicard fulfilling his early years potential anytime soon.
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    GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #16 on: September 07, 2013, 22:19 »
    Best keep clear of current riders, I will be forced to include Eddy Boss. :D Going back a bit Id probably question why Claudio Chiappucci never won a grand tour, but then its probably fair to say he exceeded his potential by a great bit.

    The one guy that always sticks up for me from recent British History is Russ Downing. Over 50 wins, including three national championships on the track, one on the road and one as criterium champion. The first Brit to win for Team Sky, but theres always the feeling it could have been so much more, or at least the quality of the wins could have been much higher.

    Just always in the wrong place at the wrong time. First got offered a pro contract with Linda McCartney, but before he could ride for them they went bust (shortly after the giro) so he road as an amatuer with UVCA Troyes in France. Then Francaise des Jeux came along and offered him a ride as a staigaire, but the UCI bless them, blocked it as he had previously held a pro contract (with Linda McCartney) despite not actually competing in a single race as a pro.

     Then he had a chance to ride for one of the best french teams, CC Étupes, who had links to most of the leading french pro teams of the time, but instead he decided to join the aussie Nova cycling (who had Sean Yates as a DS) as a pro. Picked up some good wins for the team but they too went bust.

    He considered quitting but instead returned to the track, picked up two national titles but still got no pro offer so raced in britain and totally dominated. Finally he was offered a big pro contract, 3000 euros a month with a new french team with a big sponsor. Then, two days before announcement of the team was due, the sponsor pulled out.

    Finally in 2007 he got another break, and was signed to American Health Net team (Later United Health Care). This time it was visa problems that cocked him up and he barely got to do any races. So in 2008 back to britain it was, where at the end of the year he finished 2nd in the Tour of Ireland beating up on a lot of big pro riders.

    Took till 2009 at Sky when he finally got an opportunity, and was rewarded as the first Brit to win a stage for the team.

    Always wonder what would his career have been like if Linda McCartney had stayed around, or if he had got the staigaire ride at FdeJ, or hed gone to  CC Étupes, or if he hadnt had visa issues. 31 years old was a bit late to be making his world tour debut.

    Good thing about Russ is he appears to have no regrets, always smiling, just happy to be riding his bike. I know he was gutted to be dropped by Sky, but hes doing ok at Netapp Endura. But a big case of what could have been.

    Evaluate current riders is always difficult, so I usually prefer to set them aside, or discuss them in a thread concerning the current cycling, and the riders we expected that could do more. Thanks for the Downing story, I have idea he was a good sprinter, but someone third-grade on the road, but your description shows he could have done more if wasn't bad luck. In spite of that, he has a pretty good palmares.
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  • GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #17 on: September 07, 2013, 22:23 »
    Melchor MAURI



    Mauri was Spain's first real time trial specialist before Indurain and Olano. Like Indurain, the Catalan carved out his advantages against the clock and then relied heavily on his team and his stamina to hang on over the high mountains.

    Even so, it was still a surprise when he won the 1991 Vuelta from bigger names Indurain and Lejarreta, the former just months away from his first of five Tour wins but very much beaten in the Vuelta TTs and the latter unable to completely crack either of his heavier opponents on the climbs that favoured him.

    A GT champion who now commanded attention, Mauri seemed destined for great things in a still rather democratic ONCE team, but as old favourites Lejarreta and Chozas declined, younger upstarts Zulle and Jalabert would step in to snatch the limelight. Mauri left ONCE for two seasons and when he returned, he seemed to be content to target time trial stages in short races, performing with modest success throughout the rest of his respectably long career.

    Mauri and Zarrabeitia were two of the talents ONCE had and were overshadowed by Jalabert, Zülle and Dufaux. I remember Mauri when he came to Portugal, he put decent performances with Benfica and finished thirs in the 1999 Volta, with a far more stronger peloton than this edition. He kept racing as a equipier with Maia later, always with professionalism. I don't know if he was a GT winner, I think not, but he could have won other races if he had chance.
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  • GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #18 on: September 07, 2013, 22:26 »
    Eric Caritoux



    Not really unfulfilled, but it probably looked like it at the time. ;)

    Another one-hit wonder in the Vuelta (1st on GC in 1984), Caritoux was a handy all-rounder whose singular achievement was completely overshadowed in his home country by the golden years of dashing youngster Laurent Fignon.

    In just his third pro year, Caritoux survived relentless attacks in the mountains and rode into Madrid just six seconds ahead of home hero, the luckless Alberto Fernandez, who would die later that year in a car accident.

    The Frenchmen, who was uncharitably billed by one French magazine as "the famous unknown", promptly returned to the relative anonymity of mid-pack racing and would count two consecutive national championship jerseys as the only other real highlights of his career.

    In my opinion, Caritoux was a decent rider that could have won more one week races if he hadn't equipier to Sean Kelly and later to Charly Mottet. He was a complete rider, but his Vuelta win was due also to him being underestimated by the Spaniards, engaged in their usual rivalries. The same happened in 1990 with Marco Giovannetti, that by the way won the Youngsters Classification on the Giro and is usually labelled as a lucky winner. I think both were top-10 and one-week riders, not for GT wins.
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  • GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #19 on: September 07, 2013, 22:29 »
    Sicard has had what has turned out to be permanent problems with his knee.
    It seems like it is something which will not go away and he may have to continue racing with it for the entirety of his career.
    So unfortunately I don't think we will be seeing Sicard fulfilling his early years potential anytime soon.

    Sadly it seems so, although this year he was far more combative, and he can adapt to the circumstances. But he will never be able to do what was expected.
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  • Anthony Moan

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #20 on: September 07, 2013, 22:30 »
    Bradley Wiggins
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    barrus

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #21 on: September 07, 2013, 22:33 »
    Can't believe Karpets hasn't been mentioned yet
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  • froome19

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #22 on: September 07, 2013, 22:48 »
    Bradley Wiggins
    On the road you may be right Tony.

    But in combination with the track he has indeed accomplished a great amount, which would not have been possible if he had been solely focusing on the road.

    And conversely of course you must wonder whether a rider of his climbing calibre could win the Tour? Of course they can, but put it this way.. he would not have won the Tour this year..
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  • « Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 23:04 by froome19 »

    GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #23 on: September 07, 2013, 22:50 »
    Indeed, the 2012 Tour was far more easy for a time trialist than this year's one. But how about the past english heroes? West, Lambert, Webb, nicson & Co.?
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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #24 on: September 07, 2013, 23:01 »
    On the road you may be right Tony.


    que?
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  • froome19

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #25 on: September 07, 2013, 23:06 »
    que?
    Not unfulfilled, but he could have achieved more in his road career if he hadn't focused on the track for so long and then he capitulated in 2010 and broke his collarbone in 2011.

    Of course there is the other side to that as I said above. ;)
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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #26 on: September 09, 2013, 12:31 »
    missed this rider on the list

    Federico Martín Bahamontes - http://velopalmares.free.fr/bahamontes.htm



    could have been an out and out icon of the sport except best remember for eating ice cream
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    L'arri

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #27 on: September 09, 2013, 13:35 »
    Eddy Bouwmans, for staying away from the Dark Side.

    Dimitri Zhdanov, possibly for the same reasons.

    Wilfried Nelissen should have been one of the world's best sprinters and a promising Classics prospect, stunted by two standout crashes the first of which - the infamous policeman-and-camera incident - turned Laurent Jalabert into a GC contender. ;)
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #28 on: September 09, 2013, 13:50 »
    Eddy Bouwmans, for staying away from the Dark Side.

    Dimitri Zhdanov, possibly for the same reasons.

    Wilfried Nelissen should have been one of the world's best sprinters and a promising Classics prospect, stunted by two standout crashes the first of which - the infamous policeman-and-camera incident - turned Laurent Jalabert into a GC contender. ;)
    While you are busy with the Panasonic team, mentioning Olaf Ludwig would be perfect. In a non - iron curtain world he would have made Cipollini's palmares look pale.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #29 on: September 09, 2013, 14:06 »
    While you are busy with the Panasonic team, mentioning Olaf Ludwig would be perfect. In a non - iron curtain world he would have made Cipollini's palmares look pale.

    Very true. Never thought of it that way around: a rider left unfulfilled by the start of his career despite later success.
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