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GMiranda

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Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2013, 19:43 »
Bahamontes was known as a stubborn man, and his rivalry with Jesus Loroño reached some silly moments. In fact, Bahamontes didn't raced much with his head, otherwise he could have won more... Speaking on climbers, Charly Gaul was also an unfulfilled talent (of course he achieved a lot he can't be labelled as an unfulfilled promise), but his hate for hot weather was a severe limitation... but for me, he is the best pure climber ever
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  • GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #31 on: September 09, 2013, 20:08 »
    In fact, Eddy Bouwmans, like Charly Mottet, Dvaid Moncoutié & Co. always had been labelled as a clean rider, and during the 90's, more than ever, being a clean rider meant for sure to renounce to the possibilities of major wins. I don't think that riders such as Armstrong, Ullrich and Pantani, riding clean, training hard, with their big physical potential; couldn't be the best... in fact, I still believe that, for example; Pantani could be the best climber in a clean peloton due to his structure and riding ability. But many ones were sidelined by the stars that fell into doping's promise of easy and fast success and status. But it's probably something that can be discussed on other thread too. I'm one of those that fully believe doping alone can't make a winner.

    Nelissen had that crash at Armentières, I think; bit if my memory doesn't betray me, he suffered another crash on a sprint later; and he started suffering from diziness and other troubles, that led him to retire.

    Concerning Ludwig, he was indeed one of the best riders during the 80's on the East; and he was more than a sprinter. In his primer, Ludwig could be someone like Sagan - strong sprinter, able on cobblestones, perfect in harsh finishes and keeping the pace on medium mountain; great in short time trials, going well on the longest; and going better than Sagan on the mountains, as his Tour du porvenir record proves. If we look to the East, we never stop talking of unfulfilled promises: Soukhoroutchenkov, Tave Schür, Bariinov, Szurkowski, Szozda, Skoda, Moravec, Klasa, Pikkuus,...
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #32 on: September 09, 2013, 20:22 »
    In fact, Eddy Bouwmans, like Charly Mottet, Dvaid Moncoutié & Co. always had been labelled as a clean rider, and during the 90's, more than ever, being a clean rider meant for sure to renounce to the possibilities of major wins. I don't think that riders such as Armstrong, Ullrich and Pantani, riding clean, training hard, with their big physical potential; couldn't be the best..
    EXACTLY!!!!

    Life sucks. There is no correlation between morality (or whatever variables cause someone to reject doping) and talent. Hollywood may paint things as black and white but the real world is more complicated. There is no evidence whatsoever that talented riders would not dope. That some of the people caught doping wouldn't win in a clean world.
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #33 on: September 09, 2013, 20:35 »
    Yes, for sure... as an historian, I have my own stats and my point of view. And for me, Armstrong won 7 TDF between 1999 and 2005. And all others the same. My stats will never be changed by those artificial backwars sanctions. But of course in my writings all those things will be mentioned.... on the darkside
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  • Echoes

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #34 on: September 09, 2013, 20:48 »
    What's the point making a 12 Microsoft Word page biography, showing how much Edwig Van Hooydonck was stolen by dopers if some Tour of France fanboys still keep iconizing its dopers ... I mean Mauri, Grewal, Cipollini, Ludwig, all in the same bag. Always the same posters who praise dopers by the way, except L'arri who surprises me. Mauri is a Fuentes wonder, that's common knowledge.

    Mauri can't hold a candle to Bouwmans, Maassen, Van Hooydonck, Delion or Van de Laer ...

    ... and two Tours of Lombardy, I mean ... Baronchelli is a legend, period.

    Last contribution on this thread.
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  • "Paris-Roubaix is the biggest cycling race in the world, bigger than the Tour de France, bigger than any other bike race" (Sir Bradley Wiggins)

    Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #35 on: September 09, 2013, 21:30 »
    Nelissen had that crash at Armentières, I think; bit if my memory doesn't betray me, he suffered another crash on a sprint later; and he started suffering from diziness and other troubles, that led him to retire.
    Hmmm, Nelissen broke his upper leg, his knee and a double shin break in a bad crash with a road obstacle in Gent Wevelgem 1996. Remember the picture of his leg back in the day, that was a bad one, very sad end to his carreer.
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  • GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #36 on: September 09, 2013, 22:15 »
    Ahhh, that's the crash which I was speaking. Many Thanks.... there are a lot of careers stopped or hampered by crashes
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  • froome19

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #37 on: September 09, 2013, 22:20 »
    Bahamontes was known as a stubborn man, and his rivalry with Jesus Loroño reached some silly moments. In fact, Bahamontes didn't raced much with his head, otherwise he could have won more... Speaking on climbers, Charly Gaul was also an unfulfilled talent (of course he achieved a lot he can't be labelled as an unfulfilled promise), but his hate for hot weather was a severe limitation... but for me, he is the best pure climber ever
    Indeed from what I have read on Bahamontes he very much contributed to his undoing and unfortunately his stubbornness may have limited what he could have achieved.

    Another is Knud Enemark Jensen. He was dominating the Danish scene, but unfortunately he perished riding the 1960 TTT Olympic games due to drugs and fatigue. A very tragic story unfortunately.

    Joaquim Agostinho who won two stages and came 8th overall at the 1969 Tour. And he dominated Portugest cycling winning 4 successive Volta a Portugals.. He won many a more including a win upon Alpe d'Huez. Then whilst leading the Volta he crashed and died at the ripe old age of 42. He may have achieved a lot, but I thought to add him here whilst on the above topic.

    Michelle Dancelli is still alive, though he was incredibly erratic. For example he could have won the 69 Worlds if it was not for an outrageous attack out of the break from 100km out. He did win a San Remo finally along with other wins, but if it was not his erratic private life and random attacks he could have become so much more.

    Svein Tuft is also someone I feel has not fulfilled his talent to the utmost. Anyone who hasn't heard his story is missing out. Riding in the middle of the Artic on 1500km riders just him and his bike etc. Just look at how OGRE perform with him in their TTT lineup and you have an idea of just how strong he is.

    Eric Vanderaerden as well.. lots of Merckx comparisons and he won Roubaix, GW, Flanders and wore yellow and green at the Tour. He seemed to lack ambition though and everyone said he had not fulfilled his incredible potential highlighted by the fact he kind of died out by the time he reached 26.

     
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    GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #38 on: September 09, 2013, 23:48 »
    Indeed from what I have read on Bahamontes he very much contributed to his undoing and unfortunately his stubbornness may have limited what he could have achieved.

    Another is Knud Enemark Jensen. He was dominating the Danish scene, but unfortunately he perished riding the 1960 TTT Olympic games due to drugs and fatigue. A very tragic story unfortunately.

    Joaquim Agostinho who won two stages and came 8th overall at the 1969 Tour. And he dominated Portugest cycling winning 4 successive Volta a Portugals.. He won many a more including a win upon Alpe d'Huez. Then whilst leading the Volta he crashed and died at the ripe old age of 42. He may have achieved a lot, but I thought to add him here whilst on the above topic.

    Michelle Dancelli is still alive, though he was incredibly erratic. For example he could have won the 69 Worlds if it was not for an outrageous attack out of the break from 100km out. He did win a San Remo finally along with other wins, but if it was not his erratic private life and random attacks he could have become so much more.

    Svein Tuft is also someone I feel has not fulfilled his talent to the utmost. Anyone who hasn't heard his story is missing out. Riding in the middle of the Artic on 1500km riders just him and his bike etc. Just look at how OGRE perform with him in their TTT lineup and you have an idea of just how strong he is.

    Eric Vanderaerden as well.. lots of Merckx comparisons and he won Roubaix, GW, Flanders and wore yellow and green at the Tour. He seemed to lack ambition though and everyone said he had not fulfilled his incredible potential highlighted by the fact he kind of died out by the time he reached 26.

    Bahamontes was indeed known for his stubborness, and I thinkit cost him more than one race... although the ice cream story is probably legendary, he was known for his sheer rivalry with Loroño; and for quitting a race, refusing to ride even for Franco and Spain!

    Jensen's story is known to me only due to drugs connection, but by the Peace Race and other amateur's races records, Danish cycling scene was quite strong, mainly on the flat, ITT and hilly terrain. The only that prevailed as a pro was Ole Ritter, and even him was known for his too-relaxed approach to the competition and the professionalism. Quite unfulfilled too, but neverthless a great rider...

    Michele Dancelli is another one usually mentioned, alongside Gianni Motta... both had great talents - I think Dancelli as a classicmen-like and one-week races, and Motta for the GT; but their careers were marked by highs and lows; I'd like to know more about it...

    Svein Tuft appeared for me at one Vuelta a Cuba, and indeed he has a wonderful ability for time-trial, but I think that he suffers to come on an era with strong opponents as Wiggins, Cancellara and Tony Martin. But maybe he could do more, I don't know much of his career earlier, he was a late-starter on the West.

    Eric Vanderaerden, like De Wolf and Willems, was certainly one of the unfulfilled ones for sure. I don't think he could ever be an Eddy Merckx, Belgian press tend to exxagerate. But a Van Looy, who knows?? He won so much so young, that it's said he was spoilt by the money he earned and lost ambitions before reaching his prime...

    About Joaquim Agostinho, there are a lot of things to say, and I'd like to write an article about him, perhaps I'll come up with a partnership with Echoes to write long articles, because he writes very well and has an inmense amount of knowledge, and a partnership is always good in my opinion. Agostinho had a lot of peculiarities, as you can read on Herbie Sykes' article in August ProCycling magazine, I think. He was a very late starter to the sport, and he never learnt properly how to race, he lacked tactical sense and some technical finesse... but he was so good and so strong that, even with the age and the technical and tactical handicaps, he was one of the best. But he could do much more...
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  • GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #39 on: September 10, 2013, 00:30 »
    What's the point making a 12 Microsoft Word page biography, showing how much Edwig Van Hooydonck was stolen by dopers if some Tour of France fanboys still keep iconizing its dopers ... I mean Mauri, Grewal, Cipollini, Ludwig, all in the same bag. Always the same posters who praise dopers by the way, except L'arri who surprises me. Mauri is a Fuentes wonder, that's common knowledge.

    Mauri can't hold a candle to Bouwmans, Maassen, Van Hooydonck, Delion or Van de Laer ...

    ... and two Tours of Lombardy, I mean ... Baronchelli is a legend, period.

    Last contribution on this thread.

    I think my post was very misunderstood... I appreciate your work, indeed, I appreciate it very much and I had told you the ide aof the partnership, and Iintend to send you a message but today, with my return to the university and these answers, I had no time and head for that.
    I study history, it's my lifelong passion, and my interest on the past went at the same time for the political history, motorsport and cycling... briefly I also looked for football, but it didn't endure. Apart my achademical career, and I hope to direct it to Central Asian and Mongol history; I don't keep aside become a writer related to one or, if possible, both sports. But I'm no statistician, I like to look for what is behind the things... behind the rise of Mongol Empire, the Portuguese Expansion; behind Ferrari domination on F1 in the early XXI century; behind the way Coppi and other built their careers.... more or less resuming this, I like to look for the mentalities related to the sport. A great example of how someone mix the sport history with a sociological prespective is Matt Rendell's book Kings of the Mountains, about the history of Colombian cycling. It's a must read for all cycling enthusiasts, and for Colombain fans like me, it's a jewel.
    So, in history, we can't forget the dark pages of it. I like Mongol history as I said, and many historians said Mongols did more for the civilization than most of us thinks... people think they were just bloodthirsty savages that plundered and killed all in front of them... And although those senior achademicals see them as a civilization, and a factor of worldwide progress, they can't deny that in fact, there were a lot of deaths and destruction due to their campaigns... History has always two sides.
    Leaving Mongolia and it's horse warriors to face our cycling-mounted heroes, it's impossible to look for motorsport without thinking on some rule-advantages; and for cycling without thinking on performance enhancers... it's a fact. Doping always existed, remember Choppy Warburton, Coppi's "La Bomba", Leslie West saying he didn't pretend to come to Europe because of the dark side; Fignon's sad story; and so on... 90's advent of EPO and other drugs we currently now were in fact one of the darkest times in cycling history. The ones who kept clean should be highlighted.... emphasis on how dark things went should be reinforced, and lessons should be learned.
    But can we deny history? No, it's impossible. I wasn't praising dopers... in fact, I was an Armstrong fan before his silly comeback, but I grew suspicious as I grew up and I learnt more about cycling world. I also say Pantani is my favourite rider on the 90's. And Heras too. They're dopers? Yes, like all the winners that time. What can we say? It was dark, but it existed. Armstrong didn't beat Ullrich because he had better procedures than Ullrich, or Fuente's fuelled ONCE and Kelme, or the suspicious Italians or Dutch and on and on... I believe Armstrong was the best, like Pantani. If there weren't drugs, would have he won 7 TDF? Certainly no. Field should be more levelled. But this is just one more "what if", like imagine how would be the 73 peloton with Szurkowski, Cochise and Szozda racing against Merckx, Ocaña and Fuente.
    Fall into doping's darkness has a lot of reasons. Not only sheer ambition, easiness of results, status... but also pressure. I came from science achademical medium before leaving my career and turning back to history.... and I felt what pressure put on young students to obtain results can make - note that I never turned into forbidden products, like amphetamines, to study. I left when I felt exhausted and prefrred to fulfill my passion instead of looking for the best career (I like sciences, but not so much as history).  But my personal feedback, extensive reading, and the way of thinking of an historian, something i feel it was born with me, and I am developing it in the university to be a professional in the area, don't allow me to see doping issues black and white.

    My comments can be attached to DarkSide for sure, but they are deeply related to hsitory and to the unfulfille dpromises/talent too. I hope never to annoy no one, this is just my prespective. And I really admire men that never went into it. Men as Moncoutié, Bouwmans, Van Hooydonck, and so many others... But I can't believe that doping was so powerful it allowed untalented men to rise to the top. I think it only allowed them to form a club apart and dominate above others.

    I think that finally, more than ever, I raised debate. I hope this serves to understand cycling history much better.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #40 on: September 10, 2013, 09:41 »
    OK, folks. This is a cool topic and I recognise that it is pretty much impossible to avoid some references to doping when talking about unfulfilled talents, which is why it's being tolerated outside of the Dark Side of the forum, but let's please tread carefully.

    My comments about Mauri above, and Echoes' reaction to them, are a good example. I am not unaware of the context with Mauri but I hoped that, despite the (small) risk of misunderstandings among those who were not following the sport at that time, I could avoid overt discussion of doping and that it would be self-evident to those that were following the sport back then that my comments on him would be implicitly coloured by the arms race of the 1990s.

    That said, the topic is about riders from whom we expected better, not on whether or not they were clean and whether their choices in that regard entitle them to be part of this topic or not.

    Within the discussion, there is some space to allow for the relevance of doping in the reasoning behind their apparent lack of success if we can please try to avoid the discussion being dominated by doping.
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon / Larry Sarni

    GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #41 on: September 10, 2013, 10:08 »
    Yes, I think we should go back and discuss older riders, instead of concentrating on the 90's and their suspicions. Or keep going with them without great excess.
    By the way, Mauri was a great time-trialist, not a GT winner for sure; but he was above average, and in his peak, he could suprise.
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  • GMiranda

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #42 on: June 15, 2014, 23:26 »
    So, any new memories about riders in this category?
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  • Havetts

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #43 on: June 16, 2014, 00:01 »
    Remmert Wielinga. Who suddenly surprised everybody by keeping up in teh Dauphine Libere and who was a great Time Trialist. Had his career foiled by having a fear of riding in the peloton.
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #44 on: June 16, 2014, 10:22 »
    Lance Armstrong. Looked so promising at the time of his WC and LFW wins, but then got cancer. Returned, but has an empty palmares after that, really sad :(
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #45 on: June 16, 2014, 10:43 »
    The obvious current one is Bradley Wiggins. Wins everything he tried for in 2012 including the TdF but, due to team politics, was never allowed to ride it again.
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #46 on: June 16, 2014, 10:54 »
    Other way around. Wiggins was incredibly lucky to get a year in which the Tour didn't feature high mountains but did feature a lot of TT kms, with only Nibali as serious competition as Contador and Valverde weren't there, while Froome and Quintana weren't as good as they are now yet. Then he also had the best team in the world. It was a perfect storm that allowed Wiggins to win that Tour, and even if he had a team completely dedicated to him it would never happen again.

    Performing according to his potential would be winning races like the Dauphiné and PN when they have few mountains. A Tour win is massively overreaching for Wiggins.

    As for team politics, I think Wiggo himself showed at the 2013 Giro why it was nothing more than a wise decision by the team not to allow him to do the Tour.
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  • AG

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #47 on: June 16, 2014, 11:32 »
    I dont like Wiggo ... but lets not re-write history here.

    Wiggo entered the 2012 Tour up against the defending champion.


    the 2011 Tour featured 4 tough mountain top finishes, and the least amount of Individual Time Trialing in TDF history.  It was designed so that Andy Schleck could win it.  He didnt ... Cadel Evans won.  By smashing the ITT.

    The 2012 Tour was designed for Evans.    At the time it was designed, Wiggins best result was 4th, and he had crashed out of the 2011 Tour ...


    Yes - he was fortunate.  The 2012 Tour suited him.  Yes, Sky arranged a great team (though many of them fairly unheralded prior to 2012 - they were not highly regarded).  Yes some of the other contenders were less than spectacular .... but it still featured the defending champion, Nibali who had won a GT and podiumed others ... and various other highly regarded riders.

    But that doesnt mean he didnt deserve the Tour win.  He did.

    As for an unfulfilled talent ... really?   He has 7 olympic medals ... 4 of which are gold.  He has 7 World Championships, a Tour de France title, 2 x Dauphine, Romandie, Paris Nice, a Vuelta podium ... and now has a top-10 at Paris Roubaix.   
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #48 on: June 16, 2014, 11:45 »
    Not saying he didn't deserve to win. He won, so he deserved it.

    But on any other Tour parcours of the past 10 years Wiggo would not have won. That the 2012 parcours arrived just in the year he was amazing and there was a general lack of great GC riders at the Tour was an incredible stroke of luck. Because yes, Evans was there, but he wasn't really there. Andy likewise. No Contador, no Valverde. Froome confined to Wiggo's pocket. Only Nibali to provide something of a challenge, but not the 2013 Nibali either.

    So for me Wiggo definitely overreached his potential by winning that Tour. He's a talented rider yes, but on a normal GT parcours against normal opposition would not have won.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #49 on: June 16, 2014, 11:59 »
    I am not sure about the parcours, the lack of competition may have been more of a deciding factor.
    I mean asides from Froome, who would you have expected to beat Wiggins even on a more demanding route? I am not convinced Nibali could have and certainly no other rider.
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  • « Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 13:02 by froome19 »

    Echoes

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #50 on: June 16, 2014, 12:08 »
    Spoiler (hover to show)


    Edit: Oh damn, didn't remember I said I won't contribute again to it. And I was right, I shouldn't...
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #51 on: June 16, 2014, 12:22 »
    The obvious current one is Bradley Wiggins. Wins everything he tried for in 2012 including the TdF but, due to team politics, was never allowed to ride it again.

    Apologies, that was supposed to be a joke in the same spirit as Slow Rider's post above mine.

    Doubly embarrassing when a non-native English speaker signposts his jokes better than I managed to. Thank goodness Echoes didn't get it or my shame would have been complete.
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  • AG

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #52 on: June 16, 2014, 14:00 »
    I did think that ... but my sense of humour was a bit missing this afternoon ... that happens with me sometimes :fp


    remember to include smileys   ;)
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #53 on: June 16, 2014, 14:14 »
    I did think that ... but my sense of humour was a bit missing this afternoon ... that happens with me sometimes :fp


    remember to include smileys   ;)
    Brad does that to people...




     :D :s :angry :P :lol :angel :-x ;) :( :S :shh :) :cool :o :Sleepy:
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  • AG

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #54 on: June 16, 2014, 14:17 »
    :rofl:
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  • Dim

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #55 on: June 16, 2014, 21:57 »
    Axel Merckx
    He had the genes to be great, was hailed as the "Next Merckx" (really), but just didnt do anything. Rode for teams that you would have expected to have pretty good, erm, support, Motorola, Polti, Mapei, Lotto, Phonak, these arent exactly teams that are backwards in coming forwards, yet he won absolutely jack all for his entire career.

    Ok, 10th overall in the Tour in 98, which many saw as a sign of things to come. But then, won a stage of the Giro, and a couple of small races that nobody cares about.








    From Wikipedia :D
    Quote
    Axel Merckx repeatedly vowed to make his mark by accomplishing feats his father Eddy never managed - including a Tour de France stage win at the top of Alpe d'Huez and a win in the Paris–Tours World Cup race - but did not make good on these promises.


    What happened?
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #56 on: June 16, 2014, 22:00 »
    Axel Merckx
    He had the genes to be great, was hailed as the "Next Merckx" (really), but just didnt do anything. Rode for teams that you would have expected to have pretty good, erm, support, Motorola, Polti, Mapei, Lotto, Phonak, these arent exactly teams that are backwards in coming forwards, yet he won absolutely jack all for his entire career.

    Ok, 10th overall in the Tour in 98, which many saw as a sign of things to come. But then, won a stage of the Giro, and a couple of small races that nobody cares about.

    What happened?

    Would anybody have considered him a waste of talent if not for his dads results though? Are we sure he had that potential? I would think the opposite.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #57 on: June 16, 2014, 22:04 »
    To be honest, i admit in 1998 I believed he was the next big thing, but I think that rumour was probably started by Phil Liggett
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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #58 on: June 16, 2014, 22:04 »
    Axel Merckx
    He had the genes to be great, was hailed as the "Next Merckx" (really), but just didnt do anything. Rode for teams that you would have expected to have pretty good, erm, support, Motorola, Polti, Mapei, Lotto, Phonak, these arent exactly teams that are backwards in coming forwards, yet he won absolutely jack all for his entire career.

    Ok, 10th overall in the Tour in 98, which many saw as a sign of things to come. But then, won a stage of the Giro, and a couple of small races that nobody cares about.








    From Wikipedia :D

    What happened?

    He did win an Olympic medal which was something his dad never did.
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    Re: Unfulfilled Promises/Talents
    « Reply #59 on: June 16, 2014, 22:17 »
    [...] but I think that rumour was probably started by Phil Liggett

    ...talking about it, when will Tom Danielson finally break through? ;)
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