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AG

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Re: A New UCI World Tour
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2013, 06:00 »
While I admire your passion Echoes, I disagree with many of your points.  (too many to quote :P )

I think cycling DOES need to be expanded.  It has to grow or it will die.  Races like the GT's especially, much more than 1 day races, cost an enormous amount to put on ... more and more each year, even if you did not have the overblown salaries of the major stars.  Races die because the costs are skyrocketing and sponsors dont see value for money in sponsoring a race.

TV and greater exposure is the answer to that.  But for races to be televised, they need people to watch them, and people want to watch the elite.  They want to watch the best of the best go up against each other on challenging parcours in different scenarios. 

That means
- developing talent.  More exposure in more countries develops cycling as a sport.  If more kids are riding bikes, those with major amounts of talent choose cycling as a career as opposed to something else.  That means riders like Sagan discover their talent and love for cycling.  Who knows how many amazing talents there may be in China or India or Kenya ... if only cycling were developed enough that kids chose to ride a bike instead of playing soccor or cricket or pingpong.

- developing races for tv.   Me - I watch on tv, as do many millions of others.  I am never likely to make it to a grand tour, or to a major classic ... as they seem to happen on the other side of the world.  Yeah I might go to local races ... but your version of cycling means I will NEVER get to see the likes of Cancellara or Boonen or Gilbert ... because there was no coverage of many of those races in Australia (until the 'globalisation' when we now get coverage on a 2nd tier network)   Coverage has grown in Australia ... and cycling as a sport is better for it.  Developing television exposure means developing cycling in other countries too, and if its done right, cycling will be better for that too.

- money.  The money for growing cycling as a sport will come from tv coverage, and from sponsors for the greater exposure that tv coverage can give them.  That means that races like Paris-Tours, like the smaller Belgian classics might survive when otherwise they would not.  Because as the interest in cycling grows around the world, the money starts flowing in for some of these races.

It takes substantially better management than we have had thus far.  I will certainly give you that.   But that isnt to say that globalisation is wrong ... just that what they have done so far is wrong.
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #31 on: October 31, 2013, 06:55 »
    Not all wrong AG, some stuff has worked well, very well.
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #32 on: October 31, 2013, 08:45 »
    Not all wrong AG, some stuff has worked well, very well.
    Indeed, this year I remember hearing two or three of the guys I ride with occasionally talking about a couple of "Small, hilly one day races" they watched on SBS out of curiousity. They were totally intrigued by how different the racing was compared to TdF stages, which was pretty much all they'd seen before.  They looked like stunned mullets when I told them that Liege is one of THE oldest and most prestigious races in cycling history and Amstel has a strong history too :D
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #33 on: October 31, 2013, 15:24 »
    I'd like it, but a Himalayan tour will not work for a multitude of reasons. Biggest and simplest is disputed borders and tensions between two nations, then logistics, and non existence of cycling as a sport in 3 of those nations. Also, being in the Himalayas, it's usually not in the accessible regions of the country.
    It won't happen, really. Anyway, TV money....

    I actually looked a bit into it, and my first thought was that it couldn't be done, but I then did a bit of research. The border disputes are mainly about a few mountain tops, and most of them are in the western parts of the Himalayas. The race will take place in the Eastern parts. Of cause the issue of Tibet is something that must be dealt with, but simply stating it as a part of China should do, and the Basque Country wants out of Spain too, but a race can still take place there. Logistics is the hard one, but pretty sure having some sort of hotel facility on wheels would be possible, that way the hotel would simply follow the Tour, leaving shortly before the race starts to go to the finish town. There is enough airports as well with many tourist attractions nearby. As far as cycling not existing in 3 of the nations think about it this way, India and China are huge markets, they have huge potential that could be released this way. And Bhutan and Nepal live for a large extend of Tourism, well wouldn't a WT race be a good way to market the place? As far as being accesable, weather is not much of an issue, the only real issue is that a few places have very few roads, the race in China will need to be along the G318 to make it into Nepal, Bhutan has few access roads too, but else it shouldn't be much of an issue, and think of the spectacle, wouldn't you want to see the stage two from Menbuxian, China to Bhalukhop, Nepal illustrations below.





    And a view of the MTF
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #34 on: October 31, 2013, 16:59 »
    quoted so you get a notification.........
    Nah, it's much more than a few mountains. The eastern border is a major dispute between China and India. Kashmir is impossible, Pakistan, China and India hold significant parts of it, and the claims are even more. Let's forget that as it's in the west. On the east, China disputes the legality of the border and claims one states as its own (Arunachal Pradesh, on Bhutan's eastern border), and only recently relinquished claims of another (Sikkim, on Bhutan's western border). It's different to the Basque region as two sovereign nations lay claim to these territories, not a dependent province/separatists. Tibet, otoh, is a completely domestic issue for China. Tibet is more the Basque equivalent rather than the McMahon line. There is a race in Tibet, mind. The tour of Qinghai Lake, Asia tour's marquee.

    I'm not denying it will be beautiful, spent a bit of time in Sikkim and was mint. But logistics are nigh on impossible. It's not just roads, it's continuous electricity, water supply, accommodations. I'd love it, but it's not a realistic proposition for the near future. It's not just about a WT race, I doubt any race could be organised, unlike Qinghai Lake. Can get good climby races even from major cities. Mumbai Aamby Valley (biggest city to luxury resort... perfect fit) or Mumbai Lonavla, Nilgiris, Siliguri to Darjeeling or Gangtok. The latter's a stretch though.
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #35 on: October 31, 2013, 17:29 »
    Nah, it's much more than a few mountains. The eastern border is a major dispute between China and India.

    I suggest the race just avoids crossing any border between the two, it will go China, Nepal, India, Bhutan. And will end in Thimphu after it first enters Bhutan, so no disputed regions will be run through. The comparison with the Basque is related to Tibet.

    As far as roads go I know that there are enough roads that the race could be possible. As far as water, it can't be an issue really if they can race in Turkey they can race here, both places riders wouldn't drink tap water. Accommodation could be managed by having a hotel on wheels following the race. Can't be that expensive really. Electricity is a bit of a concern for the telecast that would need it, but backup generators could always be brought in. Honestly I think they race in areas as remote as this so I am sure it will be done. While you are right that many more urban areas could present the mountainous routes they would not have the name, in this case the name is half the brand. Cycling in the Himalayas, just the idea, it is a very marketable idea, cycling in random place with mountains in India that has never been heard of isn't.
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  • Echoes

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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #36 on: November 01, 2013, 16:06 »
    I think cycling DOES need to be expanded.  It has to grow or it will die.  Races like the GT's especially, much more than 1 day races, cost an enormous amount to put on ... more and more each year, even if you did not have the overblown salaries of the major stars.  Races die because the costs are skyrocketing and sponsors dont see value for money in sponsoring a race.

    TV and greater exposure is the answer to that.  But for races to be televised, they need people to watch them, and people want to watch the elite.  They want to watch the best of the best go up against each other on challenging parcours in different scenarios. 

    Your reasoning was correct until that point, I think. That's where I disagree and what I'm trying to explain from the very beginning is the opposite. You think people only want to see the best among themselves because you follow the sport very closely and you want to see them, like a bit of everybody here, including myself, sometimes I'd like to, as well. But most viewers I know do not necessarily want that. First many are watching a race for the sake of it without even knowing who is who but most of all many here want to see our fellow Belgians or sometimes even more precisely the local hero, the guy of the town next door. There are many fan clubs ... It's even truer for those who visit the race. We want to see our local heroes, if possible mixing it up with some foreign stars, but as long as the locals remain a majority, foreign stars are always welcome.

    But only the cream of the peloton against each other? Why be so elitist ??? I've never seen cycling as a sport for the rich. It should never be !

    With regards to the cost of GT's, it's true but on the other hands, a three week race offers a lot of publicity for the sponsors. I have an anecdote that I found in a book from 1981 about that whole season - writen by Marc Jeuniau. At that time there already was discussion about shortening the two GT's - which I wouldn't be against for health reasons - and Lévitan answered no because "our sponsors need three weeks of publicity." So I think GT's are naturally a much safer investment than single-day races. Look at all the races that disappear in Italy: Tour of Piedmont, Milan-Turin (which came back but for how long), ... All single-day races. The "new" countries are usually creating stage races, except for the two Canadian races: USA, Norway, Britain, etc. Much to my disappointment, actually.

    The reason of the suppression of the GP des Amériques was precisely the huge investment for just one day, as I said above. We may w.onder how long the two Canadian WT races will last.  :?
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  • "Paris-Roubaix is the biggest cycling race in the world, bigger than the Tour de France, bigger than any other bike race" (Sir Bradley Wiggins)

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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #37 on: November 05, 2013, 19:15 »
    Your reasoning was correct until that point, I think. That's where I disagree and what I'm trying to explain from the very beginning is the opposite. You think people only want to see the best among themselves because you follow the sport very closely and you want to see them, like a bit of everybody here, including myself, sometimes I'd like to, as well. But most viewers I know do not necessarily want that. First many are watching a race for the sake of it without even knowing who is who but most of all many here want to see our fellow Belgians or sometimes even more precisely the local hero, the guy of the town next door. There are many fan clubs ... It's even truer for those who visit the race. We want to see our local heroes, if possible mixing it up with some foreign stars, but as long as the locals remain a majority, foreign stars are always welcome.

    I would agree that most danes wants to see there countrymen more than other riders, but they want to see them doing good against the elite at the Tour or in Flanders, rather than watching Jakob Fuglsang battle Michael Mørkøv and Lars Bak for the win in Post Cup in Køge.
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #38 on: November 06, 2013, 19:50 »
    That's why you should agree with me.

    Majority of local riders AND part of the elite !
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #39 on: November 07, 2013, 09:47 »
    That's why you should agree with me.

    Majority of local riders AND part of the elite !

    Not sure we disagree that greatly, in my proposal I am removing the pro continental ranks, to allow more local invitations, also with my WT teams being 35 man teams it would be fair to assume the WT may be reduced to 15 teams, to make the teams have riders of quality for all races. I am simply stating that at least the Tour, maybe other GT's and monument classics will need a qualification scheme because of the money involved. If a french team could be sure to go to the tour every year, then it would be at a massive advantage to a team from Japan that is very unlikely to get a wild card. It would only really be needed for the Tour or maybe the GT's right now IMO. I have included a salary cap for conti teams to make them more likely to last longer, and also to make the best riders have a capital incentive to ride the WT, even if they come from France and could ride a conti team and get all the invites to french races.
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #40 on: December 02, 2013, 23:02 »
    Following what was a great Tour of Rwanda, I have decided to move the African UCI WT race south in my plans. Creating a 7 day "Tour de Lac Victoria" which shall be run in the early year, this race will run through, Rwanda, Tanzania, Kenya and Uganda. (I know Rwanda doesn't border the lake btw.) And will have a prologue and 6 hilly stages. The Tour of Rwanda located where it is now makes it a perfect place for African teams hoping for a wild card to compete in the hopes of receiving a big invite in February next year. 
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #41 on: December 18, 2013, 10:54 »
    I am thinking that a few rules would need to be changed as well.

    No watt counter on bikes in races. Firstly cause it seems weird that you are allowed to fit a battery on your bike, secondly to improve the quality of the climbs in various races. Make it more about knowing where the limit is.

    I think radio's should be kept, just because it makes for a great tactical spectacle, and it makes the race safer. But much could be said about that.
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #42 on: December 18, 2013, 11:05 »
    No watt counter on bikes in races. Firstly cause it seems weird that you are allowed to fit a battery on your bike, secondly to improve the quality of the climbs in various races. Make it more about knowing where the limit is.
    I'm completely in favour of this, but your first reason isn't a good argument.
    A 'normal' bike computer that only displays distance, time and speed needs a battery too; would these be banned as well? What about heart rate monitors?
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #43 on: December 18, 2013, 11:31 »
    I'm completely in favour of this, but your first reason isn't a good argument.
    A 'normal' bike computer that only displays distance, time and speed needs a battery too; would these be banned as well? What about heart rate monitors?

    Yes, I would be in favor of banning all of those, riders would need to estimate the speed. And if you have heart rate that is really as good as a Watt counter, distance, the riders would need to know the road I suppose, but also that is why I see the point of having a radio still, the radio could be used to get info on  distance and speed to some degree to the riders. However information critical to knowing when one is cracking would be an unknown.

    The first point is not really an argument, it is more a question  to why this was ever allowed, I mean you are adding a power source to the bike? that just seems weird you know? If the bike computers should stay I would at least make the riders have to power them themselves. ie. if you want a computer you lose some of your power to a dynamo or something.
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #44 on: December 18, 2013, 11:33 »
    I see your point. An interesting view in these high-tech times, but why not.
    And everything that makes those riders that can 'read' a race more likely to win is a good idea in my opinion.
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #45 on: December 18, 2013, 11:36 »
    I will boycott the Tour of Rwanda, as long as Kagame is in power, lol.   :angry  :P

    Post Merge: December 18, 2013, 11:40
    I think radio's should be kept, just because it makes for a great tactical spectacle, and it makes the race safer. But much could be said about that.

    For safety reasons, we might strictly keep microphones. So that a rider that punctured can quickly be helped. But no earphones.

    Tactical spectacle with radios ??? Riders have to make their own strategy. Not the TD.
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  • « Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 12:04 by Echoes »

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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #46 on: December 18, 2013, 11:42 »

    The first point is not really an argument, it is more a question  to why this was ever allowed, I mean you are adding a power source to the bike? that just seems weird you know? If the bike computers should stay I would at least make the riders have to power them themselves. ie. if you want a computer you lose some of your power to a dynamo or something.

    Seems a bit odd that at the same time you do argue in favour of race radio's ;)

    I agree with you though. Ideally cyclists would have nothing that requires electricity to run on their bikes.
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #47 on: December 18, 2013, 11:45 »
    I see your point. An interesting view in these high-tech times, but why not.
    And everything that makes those riders that can 'read' a race more likely to win is a good idea in my opinion.

    Seems a bit odd that at the same time you do argue in favour of race radio's ;)

    I agree with you though. Ideally cyclists would have nothing that requires electricity to run on their bikes.

    I think it will be good for the GC contention mainly, it seems now riders know their watt of heartrate limits so they will back down before over cooking, I think this would mean we could see a Giro where the winner loses 5 minutes on a stage, but he can come back because if a rider snaps then he could lose a lot. It would bring much more excitement. As far as radio I am not sure, I like the riders to have informations on cars moving back and forward, and on distances between groups. OFC the radio could be replaced with one way radios for listening to the race radio, IMO that would make sense. the different groups would be announced, and KM's left as well, and of cause time gaps, crashes, punctures and such.

    Post Merge: December 18, 2013, 11:47
    For safety reasons, we might strictly keep microphones. So that a rider that punctured can't quickly be helped. But no earphones.

    Tactical spectacle with radios ??? Riders have to make their own strategy. Not the TD.

    So allow riders to talk to the car, and allow riders also to hear the race radio maybe?
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #48 on: December 18, 2013, 12:04 »
    yes, okay on that ..
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #49 on: January 15, 2014, 01:49 »
    Here is another great idea, the new World Tour should have a kit commission which all kits have to be approved by to make sure two teams doesn't look too much alike. This will hopefully end the trend that all teams use mainly black as their color. 
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #50 on: January 15, 2014, 01:58 »
    Another thing that is desperately needed is a pro cycling podcast actually worth watching. I mean apart from "How the Race was Won" there is not much original content online worth watching. A podcast of about an hour length every other week would be amazing. I mean a great podcast like the one Grantland does for the NBA would do so much. It would bring those who now only watch the TdF to watch much more of the season potentially. Most podcast for cycling seem to be equipment focused. Nothing really entertaining (apart from HTRWW) to entice casual viewers to get more involved. For a peak of what I mean see below.

    Grantland NBA podcast w. Bill Simmons and Jolen Rose
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    Re: A New UCI World Tour
    « Reply #51 on: February 07, 2014, 11:28 »
    With the atrocity that is the Tour of Dubai I think the UCI needs to ban starting money right now, if we want cycling to remain worth watching.
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    DB Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #52 on: November 23, 2014, 13:01 »
    Figured I'd make my own go at a plan for cycling:

    The classes of teams:

    UCI World Tour Teams - 18 Teams of 25-30 riders
    Must race all WT races. Can be invited to all .1 races (Is allowed to spend 25 race days outside of home region at .1 races (max 5 different races)

    UCI Regional Teams - 0-15 Teams of 10-18 riders per region
    Can be invited to all races, guaranteed invites to all .1 races of home region (Is allowed to spend 25 race days outside of home region at .1 and .2 races (max 5 different races)

    National association teams - According to each national associations standards.
    Can be invited to .2 races

    The classes of races:

    World Tour:
    GT class 1/2/3, Classic class 1/2/3, Stage race class 1/2/3

    Regional circuit:
    1.1 1.2 2.1 2.2

    National circuit:
    According to national association standard.

    18 UCI Regions: North American, Latin American, South American, Nordic, British Isles, Benelux, French, Iberian, Italian, Balkan, Central, Eastern, East Asian, South Asian, Oceanian, Arabian, Indian, Sub Saharan


    Please note that the regions are not intended to remain static, and that more regions could be added if interest in an area is increased.

    Season Length: 1st of Febuary to approx 18th of october (This then allows for CX, MTN and Track to dominate the remaining part)

    Calendar:

    Legend:
    GT class 1: Yellow
    GT class 2: Pink
    GT class 3: Red
    Classic class 1: Dark Green
    Classic class 2: Green
    Classic class 3: Light Green
    Tour class 1: Dark Blue
    Tour class 2: Blue
    Tour class 3: Light blue

    WT Points table:
    Class 1 Class 2 Class 3
    GT   1   0.75   0.6
    overall 1   2000   1500   1200
    overall 2   1400   1050   840
    overall 3   900   675   540
    overall 4   680   510   408
    overall 5   600   450   360
    overall 6   520   390   312
    overall 7   460   345   276
    overall 8   400   300   240
    overall 9   360   270   216
    overall 10   320   240   192
    overall 11   160   120   96
    overall 12   140   105   84
    overall 13   120   90   72
    overall 14   100   75   60
    overall 15   80   60   48
    overall 16   20   15   12
    overall 17   20   15   12
    overall 18   20   15   12
    overall 19   20   15   12
    overall 20   20   15   12
    Stage 1   500   375   300
    Stage 2   140   105   84
    Stage 3   100   75   60
    Stage 4   60   45   36
    Stage 5   20   15   12
    Moutain cl.   200   150   120
    Sprint cl.   200   150   120
    Classic   1   0.75   0.6
    Classic 1   1080   810   648
    Classic 2   600   450   360
    Classic 3   480   360   288
    Classic 4   180   135   108
    Classic 5   160   120   96
    Classic 6   140   105   84
    Classic 7   120   90   72
    Classic 8   100   75   60
    Classic 9   80   60   48
    Classic 10   60   45   36
    Classic 11   20   15   12
    Classic 12   20   15   12
    Classic 13   20   15   12
    Classic 14   20   15   12
    Classic 15   20   15   12
    Tours   1   0.75   0.6
    Overall 1   700   525   420
    Overall 2   300   225   180
    Overall 3   200   150   120
    Overall 4   140   105   84
    Overall 5   80   60   48
    Overall 6   20   15   12
    Overall 7   20   15   12
    Overall 8   20   15   12
    Overall 9   20   15   12
    Overall 10   20   15   12
    Stage 1   160   120   96
    Stage 2   40   30   24
    Stage 3   20   15   12

    Wildcards:
    GT and Tours have a max of 4 WC's - 2 must be from region of race, 1 must be outside region of race.
    Classics has a max of 7 wild cards - 3 must be from region of race, 1 must be outside region of race.


    Each of the Regional circuits will consist of 5-20 race days of classics 1.1 and 15-35 race days of tours 2.1, with an amount of 30-50 racedays in .1 races. There can be any number of .2 races. All regional team must be invited, no forced participation though, to all .1 races of the region it belongs to. .1 races can invite WT teams. National teams of the region can be invited in both. National federation teams can race .2 races.

    As an example here is a schedule of the "Nordic" and the "Central" race calendar:
    Classics:
    Skive Løbet
    Himmerland Rundt
    Destination Thy
    Ringerike GP
    Hadeland GP
    Tours:
    Tour of Norway (5 days)
    Tour de Fjords (5 days)
    Tour of Estonia (3 days)
    Tour of Denmark (5 Days)
    Arctic Race of Norway (5 days)
    Baltic Chain Tour (5 days)

    Total 33 race days.

    Central:
    Classics:
    Rund um Köln
    Rund um den Finanzplatz
    GP Czech Republic
    GP Slovakia
    GP Hungary
    ProRace Berlin
    Sparkassen Münsterland Giro
    Tours:
    Szlakiem Grodów Piastowskich (3 days)
    Bayern-Rundfahrt (5 days)
    Course de la Solidarité Olympique (4 days)
    Österreich Rundfahrt (8 days)
    Tour of Poland (7 days)

    Total 34 race days

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    Re: DB Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #53 on: November 23, 2014, 13:15 »
    not bad

    2 points though

    1 difference between the 3 GTs in terms of points is too big
    &
    there should not be a difference between the Giro and Vuelta, because while the Vuelta is the lesser GT, it almost always has a better field and better competition

    2 Why is Tirreno 2nd class Tour and not first?

    there are 5 "big" 1 week stage races: PN, TA, PV, CD and TS

    (I'd say Pais Vasco ranks the lowest out of those 5)

    so why is Tirreno not included?

    Edit: and a 3rd point: in europe the regions are too small. Teams can only ride 5 .1 races outside their home region. I say you'd have to make Portugal, Spain, France, Italy one region, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, UK, and Scandinavia and Russia, etc
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    Re: DB Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #54 on: November 23, 2014, 13:33 »
    1 difference between the 3 GTs in terms of points is too big
    &
    there should not be a difference between the Giro and Vuelta, because while the Vuelta is the lesser GT, it almost always has a better field and better competition

    I tried to make the Tour much bigger points wise to reflect the status it has for sponsors better in the points, in reality if this was the goal difference should be even bigger. But I still wanted the Giro win to count more than a Tour 2nd. Vuelta is the lesser in terms of image and I decided to rank it lower, field is better, but lots of time good riders in the Vuelta doesn't have the same shape as good riders in Giro. There is normally 1 great that target the Giro (2013: Nibali, 2014: Quintana, 2015: Contador?), the Vuelta is always redemption for TdF or 2nds for Giro start.

    2 Why is Tirreno 2nd class Tour and not first?

    there are 5 "big" 1 week stage races: PN, TA, PV, CD and TS

    (I'd say Pais Vasco ranks the lowest out of those 5)

    so why is Tirreno not included?

    I have tried to balance the schedule a bit, I had them all 5 originally, with 5-5-5, but I removed 3 races and decided still to have them 4-4-4. I picked T-A as its great fields have been a newer thing than with the others. It is younger too. I thought about PV too, but I wanted to give the basque a top flight race. Could swap those though.

    Edit: and a 3rd point: in europe the regions are too small. Teams can only ride 5 .1 races outside their home region. I say you'd have to make Portugal, Spain, France, Italy one region, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, UK, and Scandinavia and Russia, etc

    Problem is I intend the .1's to be contested by all the regional teams, so one there would be too few regional teams, and two too few race days to spread out for .1's Note that the regional teams that are among the best can still be invited outside their region for WT events. The 5 races are mainly meant to put a limit on how many "cash grabbers" a team can ride. I would be more inclined to allow a team to have a secondary region to better match sponsor interests.
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