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Claudio Cappuccino

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Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2013, 05:09 »
this seems to be common ground and the good thing is that it will include a lot of current cycling staff so not bad
Why not go back further and include the Donati report? I have some trouble with the 'after Festina timeline'. It is not like Festina invented the teamwide doping programmes. In fact, they were pretty conservative, with the exception for the perfluorcarbon stuff, that was pretty crazy...

Imho they, Cookson/WADA/NADA's, should go back to the point epo came into the peloton, maybe they should give my hero Claudio Capuccino a ring too.

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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #61 on: October 18, 2013, 05:27 »
    Why not go back further and include the Donati report? I have some trouble with the 'after Festina timeline'. It is not like Festina invented the teamwide doping programmes. In fact, they were pretty conservative, with the exception for the perfluorcarbon stuff, that was pretty crazy...

    Imho they, Cookson/WADA/NADA's, should go back to the point epo came into the peloton, maybe they should give my hero Claudio Capuccino a ring too.

    There will always be that type of arguments, I think festina is good due to the birth of WADA coming from there , otherwise where do you stop 1906?
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

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    Francois the Postman

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #62 on: October 21, 2013, 02:08 »
    Tygarts Q&A this morning with cyclingnews is very interesting:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/q-and-a-tygart-on-lance-armstrong-death-threats-and-catching-the-cheats

    Interesting read. Nice to see CN finally starting to ask trickier and critical questions too.

    This surprised me:

    Quote
    A lot of people talk and speculate and provide general information about cultures but our job is to hear that and follow up on it when it’s appropriate. At the end of the day, our decisions and our impressions and conclusions come down to evidence. We believed and wanted to believe in Armstrong’s accomplishments until we could believe no more. That happened at the point when we obtained the evidence in the summer of 2010 and moved forward.

    Tygart makes a decent case that it is their job to obtain information and follow up where it is warranted. Due process and proper channels. I am all for that. Especially when it comes to rider 15 etc. For all the reasons he states.

    As USADA, that speculation to the outside world about named riders, etc, isn't something they can actively participate in, as riders are indeed innocent until proven guilty. They have a duty of care.

    But at the same time, as USADA, it is pretty much your job to speculate about doping use by riders internally. Full stop.

    I get that you won't follow up any piece that gets put in front of you, and that limited resources means that you are making imperfect choices all along.

    However, if the tipping point "where warranted"  in reality means that you can have a rider like Lance and walk along as USADA until the summer of 2010 before the tipping point for a proper look is triggered, than that means you are failing as an institute to take your own job seriously, in my book.

    To me, the problem lies here (and I quote): "we believed and wanted to believe in Armstrong’s accomplishments until we could believe no more."

    It isn't USADA's job to believe and wanting to believe. It is USADA's job to make sure that riders are innocent, and thus we (!) can believe.  And that fellow-riders can believe they were beaten fairly.

    I'm not arguing that that means they should go after each and every rider that gets fingered by any opinionated fan with a stopwatch-based theory on a random cycling site.

    But if USADA is so pumped up by its own "wanting to believe and believed", that we can get to the summer of 2010 before their Lance threshold cup is starting to overflow, and they feel it merits a proper and really targeted look, than whatever triggers their alarm bells needs some serious retuning.

    They can still presume innocence, and most certainly they should refuse to speculate in public. But as USADA it is their obligation, their actual reason d'etre, to be far more suspicious, and scrutinize (properly) much much earlier on.

    If anything, you would probably do any innocent rider a bigger favour by giving him more arguments for innocence, than leaving him bereft of that by to not looking deep enough to counter the most persistent rumours.

    Anyone who is highly successful,  has surprising peaks, or is instrumental in the success of another rider with a string of top-level performances should have been probed and remained monitored as 'suspicious' as a matter of routine. Not because you suspect guilt (you presume innocence), but to make innocence believable, and to keep it believable.

    Lance should have qualified even if his rumour-and-speculation mill hadn't seen enough wind to make a single rotation. With his actual legacy, blown at him and by him, and the speed with which his rumour mill was churning grains of proclaimed truth into seemingly much murkier pulp.... come on!

    If even I can come up with a variant of the popular story years before 2010, one that -possibly- whiffs quite a bit even if a small part of the sturdier rumours are true, just based on what was factually out there, USADA certainly should have smelled the need for a more thorough inquest much much earlier.

    I know resources are limited, and the realisation that the UCI isn't on your side can be quite a late awareness for people in the seats they were in. But even with that in the back of your mind: the gap between what it should be -ideally- and being stung into action by 'the summer of 2010' are so big that you can lose the entire Zoncolan in it, and still be a cat 1 short of smoothing it over with a proper explanation.

    There is a point where I would expect the coppers to show up on my doorstep with a bit more than a passing interest, even if I was innocent. I think I would have more to be worried about if they didn't, to be honest.
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  • « Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 02:37 by Francois the Postman »

    Joachim

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #63 on: October 21, 2013, 05:32 »
    Yes that part struck me too. However, Tygart might not be telling the truth with that, and it might just be that the actual truth is unpalatable and the conditions don't yet exist where it can be said, or that it doesn't cast USADA in a good light.

    Of course they knew about Armstrong. They are an anti-doping agency. However, they also knew that, until Landis dropped his nuclear bomb, the man was too powerful and well-connected to bring down. That is certainly the case with the UCI, who did their best to halt the moves against Armstrong.

    The one really interesting nugget left is why the Federal case was dropped out of the blue, seemingly against the wishes of Novitsky.
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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #64 on: October 21, 2013, 08:36 »
    yes - I do agree Joachim.

    As much as USADA did an amazing job to bring that all together, against the wishes of a lot of powerful people/organisations ... they certainly didnt move on Armstrong until they had almost a slam dunk against him.  They had the Grand Jury testimony, so had his team mates ... without that they would not have got anywhere.

    Which is both sad and telling.  Sad because it shows just how MUCH it takes to get the truth against some of these guys ... and telling because there was a lot USADA could have done over the years to get there sooner, but didnt.

    Just looking at the testing numbers that Dim did - its clear that neither USADA nor the UCI target tested him.  Where is the OOC tests that could have made that breakthrough?

    Ram made some really good points early on in the Lance thread about their lack of prior actions ... they arent all angelic, as much as they went hard and strong since Landis.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #65 on: October 21, 2013, 10:02 »
    I get it from a legal point of view but - as has been alluded to above - post Postal, this is a new, cagey sort of USADA, the USADA that probably always was, and I can't help but feel like we won't hear of too many other investigations in the immediate future.

    Tygart can be vocal now that he and his organisation have a bigger profile but are people going to expect more from USADA now?
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  • « Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 13:21 by L'arriviste »
    Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    Ram

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #66 on: October 21, 2013, 10:47 »
    It isn't USADA's job to believe and wanting to believe. It is USADA's job to make sure that riders are innocent, and thus we (!) can believe.  And that fellow-riders can believe they were beaten fairly.
    Agree mostly, except with this. Isn't it the other way round? How can innocence be proven and perceptions changed?
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  • Joachim

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #67 on: October 21, 2013, 12:15 »
    Anyhoo..

    Lets take a moment to remind ourselves what two bigwigs have said about cycling recently:

    "As an event, I don't believe what I see. We've been there, done that and until there's a change of attitude at the very top [in the UCI] then I won't watch it."

    and

    “There is still more to do but we are now getting awfully close to dismantling the system that allowed this to happen. Clean athletes have more chance in cycling to be successful than they ever have.”

    Who made these statements and why are they so different?


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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #68 on: October 21, 2013, 12:37 »
    Anyhoo..

    Lets take a moment to remind ourselves what two bigwigs have said about cycling recently:

    "As an event, I don't believe what I see. We've been there, done that and until there's a change of attitude at the very top [in the UCI] then I won't watch it."

    and

    “There is still more to do but we are now getting awfully close to dismantling the system that allowed this to happen. Clean athletes have more chance in cycling to be successful than they ever have.”

    Who made these statements and why are they so different?

    Dick knows his sh*t  and TT thinks doping stops and starts with lance.

    Google was not used so 2nd quote I might have the wrong person.

    1st is pound
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  • Joachim

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #69 on: October 21, 2013, 12:46 »
    Correctamundo

    Timing also important and relevant to this thread. Dick's statement was made pre-election.  Tygart's was made post election.

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  • riding too slowly

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #70 on: October 21, 2013, 22:53 »
    Two things
    1 - The Pound quote is just an extrapolation of the Cookson myth.  His media advisors did a great job of painting him as what everyone wanted the contender to Pat to be and blinding people to the reality of the guy who had not got the spine to do anything until Feb this year, just days after he had been standing behind Pat as chief cheerleader.  So Pound, ever the politician, jumped on the bandwagon to s c r e w over Pat, who he undoubtedly clashed with several times.  Why miss a chance to kick a man when he is down ?  Particularly one as objectionable as Pat.   Even then, look at the words.  Not backing the new man, just saying what the new man has to do, which I think even the least informed pundit could work out.   It means nothing.  TT  - well nicely said JSG.

    2 - A complete change of tack - TT had the "Grand Jury Testimony".  I read it and it shocked me.  TT did not have access to the testimony, but he asked the same guys the same questions and being the creeps they were, they sang the same new answers the Feds had wrung out of them, not the "it's my phantom twin !" , "tested 500 times, - never tested positive" , "sign here for the Floyd fairness fund" type sh*t, the scum normally spouted. 
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #71 on: October 23, 2013, 13:16 »
    I notice that the UCI has not commented on this Riis victory at CAS yet.
    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/15685/CAS-rules-against-UCI-in-case-brought-by-Riis-over-Contador-and-blocking-of-riders-points.aspx

    While I am in favour of harsh punishment for dopers, it seems stupid to make rules which could be overturned.
    It makes you wonder the competence of the UCI Legal team.
    I hope it improves.
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  • Dim

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #72 on: October 23, 2013, 17:26 »
    Cookson in the FT

    Quote
    Brian Cookson is not your archetypal dragon slayer. Aged 62, he speaks in a soft Lancastrian drawl, and has a white beard and white hair.

    An undemonstrative, mild-mannered character, he spent his working life in urban regeneration for local government. Yet this is the man who last month was elected president of world cycling, dethroning the incumbent of eight years, Pat McQuaid, in an acrimonious election campaign.

    Mr Cookson’s rise to the top of Union Cycliste Internationale, the sport’s governing body, offers a template in how to unseat a powerful and well-established leader.

    The history books gave him little guidance. João Havelange defeated Sir Stanley Rous for the presidency of Fifa in 1974, while Michel Platini triumphed over Lennart Johansson to become president of Uefa in 2007.

    But the ousting of Mr McQuaid was only the third time in the past four decades that the head of a leading international sporting organisation had been defeated in an election

    Read More: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/61bca756-34e8-11e3-8148-00144feab7de.html#axzz2iYwq96kb
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  • just some guy

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    « Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 20:09 by Dim »

    KeithJamesMc

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #74 on: October 23, 2013, 19:22 »
    http://twitter.com/inrng/statuses/393072044591415296

    Wow - that shows epic mistrust of the general UCI staff - the two sacked one were probably in Florence.

    I wonder if Kroll are going through the back up's of people email accounts?

    Mind you, I expect that by now, the old UCI staff are singing like canaries and Cookson will know much of what went on.

    I also wonder if Kroll were the investigators that Makarov used?

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  • « Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 20:09 by Dim »

    Joachim

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #75 on: October 23, 2013, 19:38 »
    I'd assumed the shredders were going all night before and after the election
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  • Francois the Postman

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #76 on: October 23, 2013, 19:46 »
    Wow, that's true then? I must say that if it is, it looks like Cookson is indeed the sort of silent garden gnome I hoped he would turn out to be(come), the ones who surprise you when they start weeding, and that fishing tackle turned out to be a shotgun after all.

    I'd assumed the shredders were going all night before and after the election

    If there was actually anything to find left on them, or kept there in the first place, then some of these folk were bigger idiots than I would expect them to be.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #77 on: October 23, 2013, 19:52 »
    I genuinely think he's well-intentioned.It's just a question of whether he'll have enough muscle to push for change.

    Certainly looks like he's already flushed the bog
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #78 on: October 23, 2013, 19:55 »
    I'd assumed the shredders were going all night before and after the election
    Shredders might have helped them in the Hinault era, but we are now in the electronic era and everything is done by email.

    It is a fairly standard forensic practice to reconstruct email boxes from backup tapes - not just to see what is in them, but more importantly what has been deleted...
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  • Dim

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #79 on: October 24, 2013, 00:22 »
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #80 on: October 24, 2013, 13:17 »
    So Cookson is making progress and will make announcements after management committee next week:



    1) Truth & Reconciliation process in agreement with WADA
    2) Honorary Positions non-paid, don't attend management committee and too early to say whether phased out.
    3) French VP guy in charge of Road Commission

    I would expect management committee will also:
    - greenlight process for investigating UCI role
    - appoint new DG, which I expect to be Cookson "Chief of Staff"
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #82 on: October 24, 2013, 18:10 »
    Rule number 1 Pat you forgot rule number 1

    Never flip with a Russian billionaire , never
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  • Joachim

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #83 on: October 24, 2013, 18:32 »
    For "its too soon to say" on last answer, take that as a big fat yes  ;)
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  • Dim

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #84 on: October 24, 2013, 22:23 »
    Original peice on the computer business
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  • AG

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #85 on: October 25, 2013, 00:42 »
    I actually really like the message that sends about how serious he is.   Even though it may be purely out of spite/revenge ... Pat is in trouble  :woohoo
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #86 on: October 25, 2013, 15:19 »
    I actually really like the message that sends about how serious he is.   Even though it may be purely out of spite/revenge ... Pat is in trouble  :woohoo

    or porkies are being told

    I was wondering about this part , every person in a position such as a UCI person , would take a laptop at least with them , right

    so who collected Pats, and the other UCI folks in Italy

    Quote
    In a message sent to Cyclingnews late Thursday evening, McQuaid wrote, “That story is bullsh*t - my laptop was with me in Florence and came back to Switzerland with me - a week later I gave it to the UCI to clear my UCI files and the laptop is now back with me!!”

    McQuaid fires back at laptop seizure story
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  • Dim

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #87 on: October 25, 2013, 15:57 »
    Thats what I thought, McQuaid was sat at the Management committee meeting with a laptop in front of him. Unless he has two laptops, office laptop and personal laptop.
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #88 on: October 25, 2013, 16:38 »
    The story in the FT sounds correct and story in the Irish Times is an embellishment.

    If the UCI has a "normal" corporate mail setup, all of McQuaid's email's will be in the backups - no need for his Laptop.

    If the UCI has an "outsourced" mail setup, then the administrator will be able to "export" the emails to someone to examine.

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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: UCI Presidency : Cookson, A New Era?
    « Reply #89 on: October 25, 2013, 16:52 »
    McQuaid fires back at laptop seizure story
    And that story is exactly why I'm happy Pat is gone.
    If you send an official comment to media, there's no need at all to phrase it in the way Pat has.
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