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The Hitch

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Indeed, and those discussions have contained very strong affirmations (not speculations) that:

*Sky are paying off the UCI
*Cookson is a fraud who will engage in corruption to allow Sky to dope with impunity

I think today's news makes those assertions look a bit silly.

It isn't off-topic, it IS the topic.

Interesting. I never knew any of those points had been made here. Could you show me some of those quotes?
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Mellow Velo

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    This is so funny - every news article on the JTL violation has him in Team Sky outfit except the Times which has him in the Endura kit.

    And these paragraphs are very illuminating:
    I have a sad feeling that we are going to enter into a period of the blame game.

     What, you mean like Sky were doping him at Endura to make him an attractive buy to teams,
    then bought him for more than they could have, then stopped doping him at Team Sky, so he'd be crap, worthless and likely to get pinged? :D
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  • « Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 15:04 by Mellow Velo »
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    KeithJamesMc

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    What, you mean like Sky were doping him at Endura to make him an attractive buy to teams,
    then bought him for more than they could have, then stopped doping him at Team Sky, so he'd be crap, worthless and likely to get pinged? :D
    Nope, I do not mean that at all.

    Explanation:

    a) PR from Sky
    Quote
    We understand that the violation was highlighted by an anomaly in his Biological Passport, in a reading taken before he signed for this team.
    There are no doubts about his approach or performance in Team Sky. This is a team that trains, races and wins clean.
    see: http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,17546_9077438,00.html
    b) PR from Endura
    Quote
    He then accompanied Team Sky on their Tenerife training camp in April. Team Sky had full access to JTL from the point it was agreed for him to train with them at this camp. This includes the period covering the last quarter of 2012. According to JTL, he undertook physiological tests for Team Sky directly after the World Championships in 2012 and although Endura never received any data from these tests, neither was anything raised by Team Sky as unusual or concerning.
    see: http://www.endurasport.com/blog/?BlogID=156
    It seems to me that the two teams are taking different approaches.

    I am not accusing Team Sky of doping JTL.

    In fact the question, I want to know is "Who coached JTL from 2010-2011 (Rapha-Condor Sharp) to 2012 (Endura)?

    If you look at this article from Rouler (http://rouleur.cc/journal/riders/jtl-one-year) - it appears that wasn't Brian Smith (Mgr) or Julian Winn (DS)
    Quote
    With a late pre-race training camp sprung on his already tired legs, he was instructed to do one more hill repeat in training by his directeur sportif. He refused, got off his bike and took his helmet off to get a tan. Then the team car came round the hairpin.

    "My heart sunk. He was going to go mental," he recalls. The manager threatened to drop him from the Endura line-up for the race. "I said: 'Look, I’ve been really tired, I’m not going to get fitter, I just need to rest up’. I said to him: ‘You’ve not trained me all year, I know what I need to do going into it’."

    So who was coaching JTL at Endura? or was he self coaching?

    It appears after his little tiff with Sean Stephen of Sky about hard training, he went to self-coaching (from the same article)
    Quote
    At a pre-Vuelta training camp, Tiernan-Locke had it out with coach Shaun Stephens. "‘Look, I don’t need to train, that’s the last thing I need right now. This has gone from bad to worse since training camp. I’ve got no morale, no form, I feel awful every time I turn the pedals, I can’t even do recovery rides, my legs fill up with lactic straight away’,” he says, giving the gist of the conversation.

    He took a three-week break and was taken off Team Sky's provisional Vuelta roster. Even back racing, he has endured rotten luck: punctures heading into the finales of the Vattenfall Cyclassics and GP Plouay, then a painful crash in the GP Montreal

    But Tiernan-Locke isn't self-pitying or defensive about his annus horribilis. Clearly it's something he's thought – and been asked - about a lot. He reflects on it with unflinching honesty. Now he needs that unquantifiable value that no magic gadget can measure, confidence: even to sometimes, perversely, believe he’s going better than he actually is.

    “My confidence is getting there. I’m not deluding myself, I’m gonna need a result." He is currently without a coach, listening to his own body going into his second year with Team Sky. “Everyone around me has noticed I’m just enjoying riding my bike again."

    I find this would more amazing than his victories in 2012:
    i) if he didn't have a coach
    ii) Team Sky let him self coach

    Who was in the background advising him on training methods?

    The only oblique reference is in the "Why I think JTL is clean" by Tom Southam who JTL rode with in 2010/11 at Rapha Condor and is a retired British veteran from the 1990s/2000's
    Quote
    The fact is that when I rode with Jon in 2010 and 11 in a UK team it was clear he was a talented but unfocused rider. Nothing really ever added up for Jon, and a lot of the time he didn’t really seem to care. But Jon’s talent was there, and it shone though the cracks in his ‘I don’t give a sh*t’ veneer. Jon was a rider capable of flashes of absolute brilliance at the strangest of moments. There wasn’t one of us in the team who hadn’t shaken our heads and exclaimed at one time or another that Jon could be so much better.

    In September 2011 he finally made something of a breakthrough winning the King of the Mountains and taking 5th overall at the Tour of Britain. But, while 5th place overall in the 2.1 ranked race might not have been a big deal to the World Tour teams that Jon contacted following his ride, it was the piece of the jigsaw puzzle that Jon’s brain had needed to finally switch on, and sure enough in the winter of 2011, Jon started to get lucky.

    Jon got lucky that winter because his training bike broke, and his team couldn’t get him another one. For a whole month he was stuck on the home trainer, unable to go out on the road. This was lucky because Jon was an inefficient trainer previously, who did too many hours, and too few intervals. But on a home trainer all he could do was knuckle down, and train in intense bursts of effort, instead of long slow miles.
    see: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opinion-why-i-think-jon-tiernan-locke-is-clean

    It doesn't add up to me - someone who was an inefficient trainer suddenly self-coaches himself to WT level.

    If JTL is guilty, then he deserves his punishment - but I want to know if that is the case who taught him to dope - and my opinion, for what it is worth, is that it is neither Endura or Sky - but some mysterious silent coach/snake-oil salesman.
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  • Mellow Velo

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     That was a joke, Keith. ;)

    I remember Endura's Brian Smith,  while commentating on Eurosport saying that he thought perhaps Sky's orchestrated regime didn't suit JTl, as:
    Quote
    "...he likes to go off and do his own thing....."
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  • Joachim

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    Interesting. I never knew any of those points had been made here. Could you show me some of those quotes?

    It has been discussed widely on the internet, as well you know. As to Velorooms, you could start here:

    http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=1425.0

    There is plenty there. "Another Hein...US Postal" etc. 

    Take your time.

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  • "You can't handle the truth"

    Colonel Nathan R Jessup

    Dim

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    Point 5 is asked shane and he said I think CAS but need to be verified.

    So we will have to wait and see if ukad or cas is first appeal

    Appeal cas.
    Buy initial hearing would be ukada as Keith says

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  • just some guy

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    Appeal cas.
    Buy initial hearing would be ukada as Keith says

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

    aye was shown the error of my ways  :D
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    KeithJamesMc

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    Froome is the 1st Sky rider to break from the PR playbook (or has he?)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/25424160

    Team will suffer, I will suffer

    Need to look into past.

    Errr, no - this is the present...
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  • The Hitch

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    It has been discussed widely on the internet, as well you know. As to Velorooms, you could start here:

    http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=1425.0

    There is plenty there. "Another Hein...US Postal" etc. 

    Take your time.

    No, I don't see any posts saying either

    Quote
    *Sky are paying off the UCI
     
    nor
    Quote
    *Cookson is a fraud who will engage in corruption to allow Sky to dope with impunity

    Again, do you have any examples of posts on this forum arguing either of the above, or did you perhaps get a little too excited and attribute quotes to this forum that had never been made?
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  • benotti69

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    Quote
    Locke and his former team Endura Racing asked the UCI to give him a biological passport during his brilliant 2012 campaign, which included a series of high-profile victories at home and abroad. But the UCI turned him down, on the grounds that he was not riding for a top-level team.

    Quote
    Team Sky have confirmed that the alleged violation “was highlighted by an anomaly in his Biological Passport, in a reading taking before he signed for this team”. But Locke did not have a passport before he joined Sky.

    who is lying?



    Read more: http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/Tiernan-Locke-request-blood-passport-turned/story-20331628-detail/story.html#ixzz2nlu3YUQ8
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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    Joachim

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    No, I don't see any posts saying either
    nor
    Again, do you have any examples of posts on this forum arguing either of the above, or did you perhaps get a little too excited and attribute quotes to this forum that had never been made?

    Nope. Its all there, as you are very well aware.

    Go back and look properly. LA Florecita, Benny, and Riding Too Slowly get off to a good start somewhere around page 7.

    Take your time.
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  • Joachim

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    mc_mountain

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    Froome is the 1st Sky rider to break from the PR playbook (or has he?)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/25424160

    Team will suffer, I will suffer

    Need to look into past.

    Errr, no - this is the present...

    For interest Froome was in the firing line as was at BBC to record an edition of Question of Sport.

    https://twitter.com/mattslaterbbc/status/412994758999420928
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  • Youth CQ Game originator.

    lancasterke

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    average rider major breakthrough late in his career. he should have been approached with great scepticism by any WT teams.

    if sky missed his doping during the interview process (i.e. they're genuinely antidoping, monitered his performance over the 2nd half of 2012 performing tests on him and then signed him)
    then they look plain silly. the best, most professionally monitored team who claim none of their riders are doping or they'd know, not knowing that someone they are closely monitoring is doping......

    there aren't a lot of biopassport cases so i assume there is something pretty odd in his numbers as lots of cases (i can only assume) never go anywhere as they are too borderline.
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    New information in JTL case from an interview that Brian Smith gave to the BBC
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/25429516

    1) JTL not blood tested during his time at Endura including the Tour of Britain where he was urine tested every day;
    2) Only blood test was done by Garmin at Girona;
    3) UKAD hearing will be in a couple of months.

    Smith claimed illogical for JTL to blood dope because he had already his contract at Sky.
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  • just some guy

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    New information in JTL case from an interview that Brian Smith gave to the BBC
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/25429516

    1) JTL not blood tested during his time at Endura including the Tour of Britain where he was urine tested every day;
    2) Only blood test was done by Garmin at Girona;
    3) UKAD hearing will be in a couple of months.

    Smith claimed illogical for JTL to blood dope because he had already his contract at Sky.

    so if he was not blood tested at Endura then it all started when he was a Sky rider ????

    the BP as well all know is Blood based without it and a base you can not build a profile or case

    So never tested by Blood

    This makes no sense
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    This makes no sense

    Hmmm...

    What makes no sense is:
    - that his readings at the Tour of Britain triggered the case.
    - the blood readings relate to his time before Team Sky.

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  • just some guy

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    Hmmm...

    What makes no sense is:
    - that his readings at the Tour of Britain triggered the case.
    - the blood readings relate to his time before Team Sky.

    his reading can not have triggered at the ToB if there was no Blood taken Urine not going to be used

    So it means the Blood came from his time while a Sky rider, which means Sky lied  or it meand Blood was taken while JTL was an Endura rider and Smithy is telling fibs

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  • « Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 13:59 by just some guy »

    KeithJamesMc

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    his reading can not have triggered at the ToB if there was no Blood taken Urine not going to be used

    So it means the Blood came from his time while a Sky rider, which means Sky lied  or it meand Blood was taken while JTL was an Endura rider and Smithy is telling fibs

    I agreed with your direction, but Sky could well be splitting hairs:

    1. JTL didn't become a Sky rider until 1st Jan 2013
    2. Blood tests were taken in Oct-Dec to start to build the profile to allow him to ride on WT in 2013
    3. As far as Team Sky are concerned JTL was an Endura racer in Oct-Dec even though he effectively stopped racing for them and was under the tutelage of Shaun Stephens.

    If Sky are playing games like this, it will come out and they will look even worse
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    A lot of speculation, it would come in handy when someone just made a press release when JTL actually entered the blood passport and when he was tested. In other words, it is time for the Torquay Herald - Manuel from Barcelona says hi - to do an in depth interview with their local hero ASAP.

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  • just some guy

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    his reading can not have triggered at the ToB if there was no Blood taken Urine not going to be used

    So it means the Blood came from his time while a Sky rider, which means Sky lied  or it meand Blood was taken while JTL was an Endura rider and Smithy is telling fibs

    Quote
    According to the World Anti-Doping Agency, the ABP is administered to establish whether an athlete is manipulating his/her physiological variables without detecting a particular substance or method. The ABP uses the standardized approach of urine sampling to determine steroid abuse. The objective of this testing is to identify athletes in a haematological module and a steroidal module.
    The haematological module tests for certain markers in the body that identify the enhancement of oxygen transport. The specific markers the module tests for include haematocrit, haemoglobin, red blood cell count, percentage of reticulocytes, reticulocytes count, mean corpuscular volume, mean corpuscular haemoglobin, mean red cell distribution width, and immature reticulocyte fraction.
    The steroidal module collects information on markers for steroid doping and aims to identify endogenous anabolic androgenic steroids. The specific markers the module tests for include testosterone, epitestosterone, the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio, androsterone, and etiocholanolone.[6]
    The World Anti-Doping Agency recently released the 2014 Prohibited Substances list and it will take affect January 1st. In the new list, the agency modified the definitions of exogenous and endogenous steroids being tested for in the steroidal module of the biological passport. [7]

    so Urine for steriods

    I may have been wrong when saying urine is not part of the ABP

    TBH I am confused
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  • LukasCPH

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    So it means the Blood came from his time while a Sky rider, which means Sky lied  or it meand Blood was taken while JTL was an Endura rider and Smithy is telling fibs
    The nightmare of any PR officer: Actual hard evidence in the public record.
    Let's see who's first with 'no comment' - some conclusions might be drawn from that.

    EDIT: Just saw Keith's post. Yes, splitting hairs may well be what they do, and technically they're right. But what a PR nightmare it would be. And that from a team sponsored by one of the biggest media corporations in the world. It's almost comical. :fp
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    just some guy

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    I agreed with your direction, but Sky could well be splitting hairs:

    1. JTL didn't become a Sky rider until 1st Jan 2013
    2. Blood tests were taken in Oct-Dec to start to build the profile to allow him to ride on WT in 2013
    3. As far as Team Sky are concerned JTL was an Endura racer in Oct-Dec even though he effectively stopped racing for them and was under the tutelage of Shaun Stephens.

    If Sky are playing games like this, it will come out and they will look even worse

    this make sense the whole endura rider controlled by sky jan 1st sky rider
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  • Dim

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    Afik he entered the passport in August/September

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Walsh seems to have got the story right
    Quote
    Because Endura competed at the lower Continental level, theirs riders were not part of the biological passport data system. Only when Tiernan-Locke had his greatest victory, in last season’s Tour of Britain, did he start having regular blood tests. Values recorded in the four months before the end of 2012 were not deemed sufficiently suspicious to trigger an investigation but since joining Team Sky in January, Tiernan-Locke has been routinely blood-tested.

    This year’s tests gave the authorities the information to establish what they believe to be the rider’s normal values and they are now asking him to explain the higher-than-normal values from his pre-Sky days.
    Tests could have started at the World Championships...
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    https://twitter.com/ffflow/status/413308496486993921

    (dont know how to make those nice twitter thingies here  :shh)

    I have no idea what you are talking about - JSG
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  • « Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 14:36 by just some guy, Reason: lolz »

    just some guy

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    so Urine for steriods

    I may have been wrong when saying urine is not part of the ABP

    TBH I am confused

    and now not

    well maybe

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  • L'arri

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    Nothing to do with urine. This is a blood negative issue. I'll try to respond to the JTL case in the context of describing the bio-passport system itself for those who are not already aware or not sure.

    Bio-passport: baseline comparisons

    Every rider stepping up to the bio-passport system - coming from U23, Conti, zombie resurgence or post-suspension - must provide a set of baseline blood values through tests conducted by a WADA-accredited and UCI-recognised laboratory. In practice, this is often done in Lausanne but by no means exclusively, and usually in the off-season to reflect a rider in training but otherwise 'at rest' from competition. Obviously, for a rider returning from suspension mid-season or a young upcomer joining later on, (s)he can do the test at a different time.

    These baseline values are then used for comparison with the course of in- and out-of-competition testing done during the season. The preliminary analysis to my knowledge is automated: the system flags a range of potential +/- unusualness (imagine it as a line graph of two axes 'values' against 'time') and then the panel of experts (i.e. humans) may choose to examine these data more closely before arriving at a quorum of opinion.

    Nobody wants to catch the hot potato

    As Uncle Keith says above, JTL was probably still under contract to Endura Racing when baseline-tested if he had signed a January 1st type of deal but it would sort-of true to argue the test was not done "for" Endura.

    The range of values with which the panel took issue in JTL's case are probably from the 2013 season and, given JTL's performance throughout the year, I would hypothesise that they were in fact "negative" in comparison to the baseline values.

    This duality - the alarm going off when the seismic line goes either way so that it is not the number per se but how unusual it is - that is what makes the bio-passport system both interesting and potentially useful.

    In conclusion, I don't think anyone is lying here (except perhaps JTL, we will see), but there is certainly economy with the truth.
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    just some guy

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    Tiernan Locke’s former team manager Smith says he believes in rider, despite UCI’s anti-doping violation process

    Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/16020/Tiernan-Lockes-former-team-manager-Smith-says-he-believes-in-rider-despite-UCIs-anti-doping-violation-process.aspx#ixzz2nq2RIoo4
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Tiernan Locke’s former team manager Smith says he believes in rider, despite UCI’s anti-doping violation process

    Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/16020/Tiernan-Lockes-former-team-manager-Smith-says-he-believes-in-rider-despite-UCIs-anti-doping-violation-process.aspx#ixzz2nq2RIoo4

    What I learnt from interview is the following:
    a) Brian Smith admits that there is a problem with JTL's biological passport
    b) JTL has hired experts and they couldn't convince the UCI
    c) JTL might hire some different experts for UKAD hearing but doesn't have a lot of money.
    d) Brian Smith believes JTL is innocent because:
    i) He is nice lad who was always supportive of Endura anti-doping stance
    ii) No gossip or suspicions in the team
    iii) Brian Smith had a chat with him after
    iv) JTL wasn't paid a lot of money
    v) JTL is squeamish and frightened of needles
    vi) JTL had his contract with Sky in place why would he have doped
    vii) Garmin found nothing
    viii) JTL was ill in 2013 because of Sky training regime
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