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The Hitch

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How comes both this thread and the one on CN have the same basic misspelling of the name "Jonathan".
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Dim

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    Because Jonathon is a common spelling of Jonathan.. will fix that :D
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  • froome19

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    WC RR For a Start
    I am sure it was a mutual thing, JTL would never have raced under such aspersions and anyways Sky/BC wouldn't have wanted him to.

    They only heard about it around a week ago or so according to Walsh which thus means that he wouldn't have been pulled out of any races. Also keeping it hush hush is a definite, until he is found guilty there is no reason why it should be made known to the public as I believe Cookson stated somewhere up thread

    No, Walsh is not being over-dramatic.

    What BskyB knows a lot about is churn - management of churn (or minimisation) is a core skill required for the success of their business. The psychology of churn is that few people leave with the first mistake that a company makes. It is the build-up of mistakes especially one's that are repeated that make a person leave a company for another provider.

    If we apply this to Team Sky:
    1. The Geert Leinders/Bobby Julich/Michael Barry / et-all recruitment was a complete shambles. Team Sky put out a statement "We cocked up, Brailsford was ready to resign, We have learnt out mistakes"
    2. As that episode is unfolding, Team Sky recruit JTL. No, I am not saying JTL is guilty. But, whatever the questions we soon come round to "Why did Team Sky recruit him?". Even if JTL is innocent, Team Sky will have the same questions over their recruitment policy.

    If Team Sky take a "Nothing to do with us, gov, before our time" - it will be a massive mistake - not just PRwise, but with the sponsors...

    I agree with that, but I nevertheless feel that after the whole saga in the aftermath of the USADA report, this does not justify or would cause Sky to consider seriously pulling out. It just isn't big enough news, however much Walsh tried to accentuate the situation.
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  • RIP Keith

    The Hitch

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    Nothing that the other media havent already said tbh


    Is this the Walsh piece?
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  • L'arri

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    Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon

    Jono L.

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    JonathAN,

    http://www.teamsky.com/profile/0,27291,17543_8328279,00.html

    Biblical spelling. The way it should be ;-) :D :evil:
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  • « Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 23:48 by Jono L. »

    Dim

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    Been pondering this one during the day, and theres just something weird about the whole thing.

    As far as JTL goes, its hard to know, the guy had such an up and down career, years out with illness, then finally turns pro in 2010, good year in 2012, signs for sky, rides like a pig all of 2013. The issue seems to be the late 2012 samples compared with 2013. He was fine in the Garmin testing early 2012, but the comparison with quarter 3 with now is amiss. Either he was doping for the TOB to get the Sky contract, or somethings happened since, its equally possible that in 2012 doing training himself he was in decent condition, riding for Sky, hes already said he hates the training regieme, so theres every chance his health has taken a knock which is why 2012 is looking odd. Who knows. Could be either way.

    But, Walsh. i dont get this guy. Riders get letters from the UCI asking for explanation, UCI decide if action needs to be taken based on that explanation, but until then the rider has a right to anonymity (right or wrong) in case there is a valid explanation. Walsh to prove hes still "got it" decides to break that confidentiality and make a huge story out of it. He doesnt follow up by talking to Garmin, or Talking to Endura, or talking to Sky, he just drags it out over two pages, makes  a story and leaves everyone else to ask the proper questions. Its like he only did half the job.

    Making it public is one thing, possibly wrong, but thats Davids decision, but he took a very tabloid approach with it.

    The other option is, Sky want JTL out and they were behind the blab to give them an excuse to put forward their point of view, blame it on JTL, and quietly see him out the door. All very odd.

    The funny bit is Andrew McQuaid being JTL's manager :fp
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  • search

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    Been pondering this one during the day, and theres just something weird about the whole thing.

    As far as JTL goes, its hard to know, the guy had such an up and down career, years out with illness, then finally turns pro in 2010, good year in 2012, signs for sky, rides like a pig all of 2013. The issue seems to be the late 2012 samples compared with 2013. He was fine in the Garmin testing early 2012, but the comparison with quarter 3 with now is amiss.

    how was Garmin able to get long-ranging blood values? Or how else can anyone say "he was fine" regarding that matter?

    And I guess he was added to some kind of testing program when he was chosen for the british 2012 world championship team?! Or where do these values from late 2012 come from?
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  • "If this is cycling, I am a banana"

    Dim

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    garmin tested him in the spring with a view to hiring. He was tested for the Bio Passport by the UCI since September 2012.
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  • AG

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    1 - everyone is assuming that "Garmin's tests came up fine"  ... because Garmin were still interested in hiring him after the testing.   That is a BIG assumption.

    2 - his results.  Yes he stepped up last year, achieved some great results for a conti rider ... but he didnt come from nowhere to - I dont know - podium the Vuelta or anything.  He took a step up from a Continental rider, but once he started on a pro tour team, and raced against quality riders all the time, he struggled.   That to me is pretty normal.

    3 - his breakthrough came at 27yrs old.  not too unnatural

    4 - I am hesitant to find anyone guilty based on a letter of inquiry.  He should get to answer before we pass judgement.  Maybe there is explanations ... (injury, illness etc)

    5 - if there is questions to answer, Sky to have some.  They 'took him under their wing' knowing they were going to sign him well before the Tour of Britain.  If he doped, are we to beleive that doped BEFORE sky - and stopped when he made it to the big leagues????
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    garmin tested him in the spring with a view to hiring.

    yeh, sure, but can you really read something into short term blood values? Isn't it the development that's interesting?
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Quote
    But, Walsh. i dont get this guy. Riders get letters from the UCI asking for explanation, UCI decide if action needs to be taken based on that explanation, but until then the rider has a right to anonymity (right or wrong) in case there is a valid explanation. Walsh to prove hes still "got it" decides to break that confidentiality and make a huge story out of it. He doesnt follow up by talking to Garmin, or Talking to Endura, or talking to Sky, he just drags it out over two pages, makes  a story and leaves everyone else to ask the proper questions. Its like he only did half the job.
    Walsh will have hurt by the accusations after the TdF that he was Sky’s patsy. In fact his tweet on Saturday night proves it to me.
    http://twitter.com/DavidWalshST/statuses/384087722266091520
    I don’t think it was Walsh’s duty to keep the UCI confidentiality – he had a big story – the possibility of Sky’s first positive and broke it before anyone else.
    What intrigues me about the story is the source. I guess that Walsh was surprised by Tiernan-Locke’s Wednesday night tweet and made inquiries. I guess someone at Team Sky told him.
    Walsh tried to contact Tiernan-Locke. But I don’t see why he should have contacted Garmin. Maybe Brain Smith at Endura, but at the end of day Walsh wanted an exclusive and would have learnt from Lance days when Lance leaked his exclusive about the Ferrari connection to Gazetto. The less people who know about the exclusive the better.
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    The other option is, Sky want JTL out and they were behind the blab to give them an excuse to put forward their point of view, blame it on JTL, and quietly see him out the door. All very odd.
    My view is that Sky are terrible at PR. They seem to cock up the handling of everything when something goes wrong. People give them too much credit. I guess they just panicked when Walsh came sniffing and didn’t realise that the Walsh take on the story would not be “clean Sky” but “dirty previous” and instead be “2nd example of Sky’s appalling recruitment process”
    All I hope is that Sky don’t cast JTL adrift before the process is finished. JTL needs expert help in interpreting his blood values and explaining them – this is assuming that he is innocent. It seems to me to be already a rocky relationship with JTL’s public complaints about overtraining and is now in the position of coaching himself. Of course, Sky themselves will want answers themselves and if JTL is guilty they will throw the book at him.
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  • just some guy

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    British cycling head Sir Dave Brailsford urges caution over Jonathan Tiernan-Locke blood investigation

    Quote
    Brailsford is understood to be angry details of the UCI probe were leaked into the public domain, insisting "confidentiality" was important while any rider was under investigation.

    I do kind of see his point , but maybe a rider would be not able to ride until investigation is complete and a public statement from the UCI say rider X YZ is under investigation , rider X YZ is not guilty but has been withdrawn from competition until the investigation in 3 weeks. If found guilty will be banned for up to 2 years if not gulity will be free to ride after the investigation is complete.

    in doing that it shows transparency , which is what we need basically     
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    LukasCPH

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    My view is that Sky are terrible at PR. They seem to cock up the handling of everything when something goes wrong.
    Ironic really, seeing as the sponsor is a multinational media conglomerate. Surely there has to be someone inside NewsCorp who could give them some pointers?
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  • 2017 0711|CYCLING PR Manager; 2016 Stölting Content Editor
    Views presented are my own.
    RIP Keith

    jimmythecuckoo

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    Whilst I find it unsurprising that there is some sort of investigation into JTL, I am pleased to see a few people inside the peloton showing their support.

    Hopefully that means it is an irregularity rather than malpractice.

    But we have to wait and see.
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  • The fens are just West West Flanders really...

    Froome's Thoughts

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    http://www.jtlocke.com/latest-news/
    Seems like this hasn't been updated yet :D
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  • Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.

    ~ Albert Einstein, letter to his son Eduard, 1930

    L'arri

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    http://www.jtlocke.com/latest-news/
    Seems like this hasn't been updated yet :D

    Yeah, sad really. He's probably getting more hits on his website now than at any other time this season.  :s
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    So Endura make a statement:
    http://www.endura.co.uk/blog.asp?BlogID=156

    New items:
    1. Endura made requests to both UKAD generally for additional rider testing and UCI for specific JTL testing. Both refused.
    2. Team Sky only did physiological testing after World Championships, when it was all over the press for months that they were going to sign JTL.
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  • just some guy

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    So Endura make a statement:
    http://www.endura.co.uk/blog.asp?BlogID=156

    New items:
    1. Endura made requests to both UKAD generally for additional rider testing and UCI for specific JTL testing. Both refused.
    2. Team Sky only did physiological testing after World Championships, when it was all over the press for months that they were going to sign JTL.

    they offered to pay for the testing as well right ?

    why would they say no then

    this is getting really odd now , I still think it was a way to make BC and Cookson look bad before the election.

    a please explain gets missed easy enough and becomes a positive 
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    they offered to pay for the testing as well right ?
    The article explicitly states that offered to pay the UCI, but no mention of money as UKAD which reading between the lines means they didn't offer to pay UKAD.

    Quote
    this is getting really odd now , I still think it was a way to make BC and Cookson look bad before the election.

    a please explain gets missed easy enough and becomes a positive
    What I find odd is that Endura (Brian Smith) have obviously talked to JTL and thrown some new information into the pot which makes Sky seem worse than Garmin in their recruitment policy. ie Garmin took a real early physiological test in the negotiation process whereas Sky waiting until the last possible moment.

    Sky won't be happy, but once again seem to be behind the curveball on PR. I just hope the doctors at Sky are helping JTL prepare his explanation.
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  • AG

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    they are all talking about the odd tests being for 'the last 4 months"   ... is that meaning Sept - December  or the last 4 months of the season?

    Sept - Dec is squarely within the timeframe that he was dealing with and under the "control" of Sky.  He went to their training camps etc

    Other than that - realistically, he had 'high' values, went to Sky and they dropped.  Its certainly feasible that his values dropped due to overtraining, illness and injury ... isnt it?
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    So the tests that I think that JTL will have had in 2012 are:

    1. The Garmin test - April
    2. Tests during Tour of Britain in September that he won - early September
    3. The Sky test after the WRR - late September
    4. The Biological Passport test after he signed as a pro in Oct

    Since, he has done nothing in 2013, I assume he just biological passport tests.
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  • cj2002

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    So the tests that I think that JTL will have had in 2012 are:

    1. The Garmin test - April
    2. Tests during Tour of Britain in September that he won - early September
    3. The Sky test after the WRR - late September
    4. The Biological Passport test after he signed as a pro in Oct

    Since, he has done nothing in 2013, I assume he just biological passport tests.

    Presumably Tour Med, Alsace and Haut Var which he also won...
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    KeithJamesMc

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    Presumably Tour Med, Alsace and Haut Var which he also won...

    From CyclingNews: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/jonathan-tiernan-locke-illness-doping-rumours-and-his-road-to-the-top

    Quote
    But underneath the frequency of applause there are the whispers. They start out small and it takes just one, but the fact that there was no testing at Med and that as part of a Continental team Locke is not subject to the biological passport testing, all add to the speculation.
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  • AG

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    no cj - some of those had no testing. 

    I remember guys tweeting at the time complaining about dodginess as no testing.  Pretty sure that was Tour of the Med ...
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Looks like Andrew McQuaid is now starting to earn his agent fees
    Quote
    The 28 year-old is said to be "extremely confident" of proving the readings in question were the result of the illness he is said to have suffered since joining Team Sky.
    The UCI last week gave the 2012 Tour of Britain winner three weeks to respond to its written request and his agent, Andrew McQuaid, told Telegraph Sport on Tuesday: "We are currently planning to answer the questions raised by the UCI and we're extremely confident that, once we present our answers, the case won't go any further.
    "As this should be a confidential process, we're not to say any more at this time."
    Tiernan-Locke is thought to be in despair at news of the probe becoming public and is determined to identify the source of the leak.
    Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/10347161/Team-Sky-rider-Jonathan-Tiernan-Locke-extremely-confident-of-proving-innocence-after-inconsistent-blood-test.html

    I can exclusively reveal the name of his illness - "KerrisonTrainingItis" :D
    Interesting that McQuaid wants the name of the leaker - this could run and run...
     
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  • cj2002

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    Interesting that McQuaid wants the name of the leaker - this could run and run...

    Isn't the name of the leaker on Andrew McQuaid's birth certificate, in the box marked "father"?!?
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  • Dim

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    That would involve Walsh having done a deal with McQuaid. No way.
    The leak is sky, I'm sure of it.
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    That would involve Walsh having done a deal with McQuaid. No way.
    The leak is sky, I'm sure of it.

    I agree with Dim.

    My only question is if the leak was authorised or unauthorised.

    If unauthorised then Brailsford will be cursing the month of relationship building that he gave Walsh in July.
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  • L'arri

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    Bah, that rather puts paid to the outlandish but alluringly attractive "Phat's Poison Letter" theory if Andrew is Tiernan-Leak's agent.

    That said, it does sound a little like "Sky must back JTL's story or else there will be other stories".
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