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Flo

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Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
« Reply #120 on: June 27, 2014, 21:20 »
Classics would be good with 5 riders, this would force skilled riders to be used early meaning bigger chance of an outside attack winning.

5 seems a bit on the extreme side. 6-7 would be good. 7. Let's say 7 :P
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #121 on: June 27, 2014, 21:25 »
    5 seems a bit on the extreme side. 6-7 would be good. 7. Let's say 7 :P

    Honestly I think 5 would work, teams would be forced to work together from the start, no OPQS just taking charge, then later on you could actually see riders being isolated, meaning that they would have to evaluate all attacks, go or stay, I think it would be great. Might need six for the long ones Paris-Tours etc. but for Arrow and the likes I think 5 is perfect. Think about Wattenfall, the sprinters would be far less sure of a sprint, because they can not use up any riders if they want a good lead out. Meaning the break could just happen. Dare I say it GP Ouest France may even be good  :o
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  • Flo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #122 on: June 27, 2014, 21:32 »
    Honestly I think 5 would work, teams would be forced to work together from the start, no OPQS just taking charge, then later on you could actually see riders being isolated, meaning that they would have to evaluate all attacks, go or stay, I think it would be great. Might need six for the long ones Paris-Tours etc. but for Arrow and the likes I think 5 is perfect. Think about Wattenfall, the sprinters would be far less sure of a sprint, because they can not use up any riders if they want a good lead out. Meaning the break could just happen. Dare I say it GP Ouest France may even be good  :o

    Maybe.

    Don't like small teams, lots of riders lose their jobs.
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #123 on: June 27, 2014, 21:37 »
    Maybe.

    Don't like small teams, lots of riders lose their jobs.

    I would like to see an expanded WT program as well, which would mean team size would be close to what it is now. Meaning more chances for second tier riders in the teams to win races.
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #124 on: July 01, 2014, 11:52 »
    Not really 8 riders for me is ok, but these type of changes are part of a massive change to cycling, that tbh no one seems to know about or really care,  and that's what I was referring to
    It's all like the introduction of the ProTour in 2004/2005. That was rushed to have it ready and implemented in 2005, and cycling still suffers from the after-effects to this day.

    This is done not quite as rushed (there's been talk of it for over a year; only nobody but a few nerds - read us - has noticed).

    But the sensible, proactive decision for the guy in charge, and that is Cookson, would be to say: "Guys, let's do this right, not fast", and wait for a good concept to be agreed upon by all (or most) parties affected.
    Instead, he takes a backseat and lets things run their course. I'm not impressed. :(
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #125 on: July 01, 2014, 11:57 »
    It's all like the introduction of the ProTour in 2004/2005. That was rushed to have it ready and implemented in 2005, and cycling still suffers from the after-effects to this day.

    This is done not quite as rushed (there's been talk of it for over a year; only nobody but a few nerds - read us - has noticed).

    But the sensible, proactive decision for the guy in charge, and that is Cookson, would be to say: "Guys, let's do this right, not fast", and wait for a good concept to be agreed upon by all (or most) parties affected.
    Instead, he takes a backseat and lets things run their course. I'm not impressed. :(
    Worse fus

    Many of these ideas came froma working group, they were ideas, many Pat has said himself were sh*te.

    since Pat left these ideas are becoming facts .

    so a bad idea from Pats time is becoming new cycling in Cooksons
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #126 on: July 01, 2014, 11:59 »
    5 seems a bit on the extreme side. 6-7 would be good. 7. Let's say 7 :P
    Honestly I think 5 would work, teams would be forced to work together from the start, no OPQS just taking charge, then later on you could actually see riders being isolated, meaning that they would have to evaluate all attacks, go or stay, I think it would be great. Might need six for the long ones Paris-Tours etc. but for Arrow and the likes I think 5 is perfect. Think about Wattenfall, the sprinters would be far less sure of a sprint, because they can not use up any riders if they want a good lead out. Meaning the break could just happen. Dare I say it GP Ouest France may even be good  :o
    Loads of .2 races have 5-rider teams. On the other side they have more than 25 teams participating, in some Italian races there are 30-40 teams!
    And these races with small teams are generally great. None of that calculating "let's reel in the break with 10 to go and see how we fare in the sprint" stuff, you have to race much more actively to get a result.

    Smaller squad sizes at races would lead to smaller team sizes.
    However, that would also mean that a sponsor would need to invest less money than now for a team that has a chance of racing the biggest events, if the number of teams at a race is increased similarly - 5-rider teams at the Classics would mean that even with 30-35 participating teams, you'd have a smaller peloton than now (although you'd have a bigger and longer caravan of team cars).
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #127 on: July 01, 2014, 12:45 »
    Smaller squad sizes at races would lead to smaller team sizes.
    However, that would also mean that a sponsor would need to invest less money than now for a team that has a chance of racing the biggest events, if the number of teams at a race is increased similarly - 5-rider teams at the Classics would mean that even with 30-35 participating teams, you'd have a smaller peloton than now (although you'd have a bigger and longer caravan of team cars).

    I don't know if that many teams is good though, could easially come in a situation where you have all the best riders on OPQS and Lotto plus a few more so 20 teams send one in the break and they can't pull them back, that would be bad too imo. Also I think the cost of teams is sky high because of technology, you can't compete with Sky, Astana, Tinkoff etc. unless you pay up big.
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #128 on: September 17, 2014, 11:36 »
    CPA has released some thoughts re 2015-18 cycling reforms

    gives lots of green lights , salary cap, hot or cold rules etc

    I will have a detailed read soon, but 2 week Vuelta mentioned  :S

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #129 on: September 17, 2014, 11:44 »
    Ok some stuff

    we will have 18 WT teams 2015 and 2016 ( new info 2016)

    The vuelta to be 2 weeks long ?

    set regulations onmrace set up and safely (mental this is being talked about in 2014)

    Salary cap to help even out teams

    They have issues with the point scoring system of 1st 3 only, a negative against sprinters

    But major issue  is the 2nd division they don't like any of it  :D
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #130 on: September 17, 2014, 13:15 »
    Eh, don't need to read a UCI document of all things to know how they'll change Women's Cycling. It'll look something like this:

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #131 on: September 17, 2014, 15:28 »
    Ok some stuff

    we will have 18 WT teams 2015 and 2016 ( new info 2016)

    The vuelta to be 2 weeks long ?

    set regulations onmrace set up and safely (mental this is being talked about in 2014)

    Salary cap to help even out teams

    They have issues with the point scoring system of 1st 3 only, a negative against sprinters

    But major issue  is the 2nd division they don't like any of it  :D

    If the riders accept a salary cap they are less capable of working together than I thought, (Also I am not sure if a salary cap is even legal in all places)

    Regulation is silly talk, it is super easy to do, and I bet they will overreact.

    2nd division will be garbage, when someone is relegated they will in 100% of the cases fold unless ASO gives them a wild card to the TdF. A two week Vuelta is just bullsh*t. Generally when you know that anybody could do better if they cared it is hard to like the UCI, either way they should give me a call or something, bet I could do better than what they currently do.
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  • Armchair Cyclist

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #132 on: September 17, 2014, 15:40 »
    No apparent immediate entry to division 1A for new teams, only by promotion.  No brand new teams straight into the top division? Or just another rule for the UCI to disregard when it seems expedient?
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #133 on: September 23, 2014, 20:10 »
    This thread is going to get a workout over the next 2 years

    Giro looking to be shortened by the UCI

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/09/news/uci-ends-beijing-tour-sets-groundwork-major-changes_347001
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #134 on: September 23, 2014, 20:43 »
    Via fmk on twitter

    Professional Cycling Council

    President

    Mr David LAPPARTIENT (FRA)

    Members appointed by the UCI Management Committee
    Gilles Delion (FRA)
    Marco Pinotti (ITA)
    Mike Plant (USA)
    Kristy Scrymgeour (AUS)
    Tom Van Damme (BEL)

    Riders' representative, member of the UCI Athletes' Commission
    Bernhard Eisel (AUT)

    Members appointed by the associations
    Gianni Bugno (ITA) - Member appointed by the CPA
    Luuc Eisenga (NED) - AIGCP Member appointed by a UCI ProTeam
    Alfonso Galilea (ESP) - AIGCP Member appointed by a UCI ProTeam
    Charly Mottet (FRA) - Member appointed by the holders of a UCI WorldTour license
    Christian Prudhomme (FRA) - Member appointed by the other race organisers of the UCI WorldTour, a member of the AIOCC

    Honorary President
    Vittorio Adorni (ITA)

    Observer status
    Roger Legeay (FRA)

    These are the bfolks making the suggestions
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #135 on: September 24, 2014, 18:13 »

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/09/news/uci-ends-beijing-tour-sets-groundwork-major-changes_347001

    Quote
    It’s unclear how much race organizers or teams are in agreement with the proposals. Last week, Vuelta a España director Javier Guillén said the Spanish tour, which is owned by Tour de France owners ASO, was opposed to reducing the Vuelta to less than three weeks.

    However if we go back to last year Guillen was saying something different.

    Quote
    ...A cut from a three-week race must be done for the right reasons and would be accepted if a new calendar was brought in and other races were in agreement. But we would have to get something back in return. If this meant that we could count on Froome, Contador or Purito [Rodríguez] always riding, it would be welcome.

    So a two week Vuelta (and Giro) probably ties in with the Oleg Challenge of the big guns at every GT.
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  • cj2002

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #136 on: October 15, 2014, 14:52 »
    Cookson insists... I'll be honest, I stopped reading properly after that  :shh

    Quote
    The Cyclistes Professionnels Associés - the riders' union - is against a reduction in the number of riders in WorldTour teams, fearing this will leave some riders without a contract in the future. Vuelta director Javier Guillén hit back at the idea of cutting the Spanish Grand Tour, while the AIGCP - the teams' association - also have doubts about the current structure of the reforms.

    So the teams, the riders and the races are unhappy. Which leaves who, exactly?

    Oh, and JSG - It looks like Brian has a message for you...

    Quote
    “At the end of the day, the UCI is a representational body and is owned by the federations. Perhaps it's a little archaic in the way its democratic structure operates but if you're a member of a national federation, you have a voice. I urge people to join their national federations around the world rather than send angry tweets.

    That media BS reasoned comment piece in full: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/cookson-insists-worldtour-reforms-will-be-in-place-for-2017
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  • He shook his head sadly and told me that endemic drug use had compelled him to give up a promising career. "Even one small local race, prize was a salami, and I see doping!" - Tim Moore: Gironimo (Riding the Very Terrible 1914 Tour of Italy)

    just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #137 on: October 15, 2014, 15:15 »
    Angry tweets, well I never   :-x


    ok once or twice  ;)
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #138 on: October 15, 2014, 15:20 »
    Haha deluded fool

    We have the final word because we are the international governing body for the sport. We're trying to bring everyone together in a way that works for everyone and gives everyone a sustainable future.”

     

    The ASO says hello
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #139 on: October 15, 2014, 16:30 »
    However if we go back to last year Guillen was saying something different.

    So a two week Vuelta (and Giro) probably ties in with the Oleg Challenge of the big guns at every GT.

    Just a word on this "idea" of making two of the Grand Tours distinctly less grand.
    Happened to be looking at some race day stats the other day, for the historical countries providing the bulk of the European calendars.

    Spain:
    2014 - 66*
    2013 - 76
    2012 - 82
    2011 - 105
    2010 - 113
    2009 - 117
    2008 - 158
    2007 - 153
    2006 - 157
    2005 - 170

    Italy:
    2014 - 90
    2013 - 104*
    2012 - 135
    2011 - 156
    2010 - 152
    2009 - 155
    2008 - 158*
    2007 - 153

    * Excluding Worlds.

    That's a 61% reduction in Spanish race days within the past 10 years. (42% within 4 years in Italy)

    My point being that if these countries keep hemorrhaging race days at anything like the recent rate, a two week Vuelta could itself become vulnerable to extraction, without some serious under-pining from the ASO.
    The rot has already set in. It doesn't need a helping hand from an experiment.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #140 on: October 28, 2014, 14:14 »
    https://twitter.com/stevebeckett/status/527043263384268800

    Some alternative views on what should be done.

    1. Get rid of the World Championships and give the rainbow stripes to whoever is leading the WT
    2. Collaboration between ASO, UCI and Avignon
    3. Completely independent drug blah blah blah
    4. No mandatory devo squads for the WT teams. Introduce transfer system
    5. Consistent tv coverage

    He obviously though doesn't read Velorooms (and this thread in particular), as he's still confused and wrong about Division 1a and 1b and the race days.

    Quote
    1b division .... consisting of 8 teams who are permitted to race c50 days of the WorldTour
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #141 on: October 28, 2014, 14:53 »
    https://twitter.com/stevebeckett/status/527043263384268800

    Some alternative views on what should be done.

    1. Get rid of the World Championships and give the rainbow stripes to whoever is leading the WT
    2. Collaboration between ASO, UCI and Avignon
    3. Completely independent drug blah blah blah
    4. No mandatory devo squads for the WT teams. Introduce transfer system
    5. Consistent tv coverage

    He obviously though doesn't read Velorooms (and this thread in particular), as he's still confused and wrong about Division 1a and 1b and the race days.
    My first thought was "Who the flip is Steve Beckett?"
    Looked at his LinkedIn - some dude working in marketing and sponsor relations.

    Haven't read the article, will do so later, only replying to LB's bullet points:
    1. Yeah, let's get rid of the single one event that trespasses decades and centuries in this sport, and defines it like no other. :fp
    2. That should be a given, and is necessary. Completely in favour.
    3. See 2.
    4a. No mandatory devo squads? On the contrary! What would you think if a top football team had no youth teams at all?
    4b. Transfer system? I quite like the part of cycling that contracts are contracts, and honoured as such, instead of being torn apart if only there's enough money involved. Again comparing to football - I wouldn't like every Tom, Dick and Harry to get a 5-year contract just because his team hopes he'll develop and can be sold on for cash. That would mean more job security for riders, though (provided teams have the cash, which sometimes is a problem even with 1-year contracts).
    5. See 3.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #142 on: October 28, 2014, 15:37 »
    Well I was paraphrasing a bit, so maybe I didn't get the full gist of what he was trying to say in each case.

    I think in the transfer system point, he's just wanting to see more money trickle down from the top in the cycling pyramid. How it would work in practice I don't know. A few thousand (2?5?10?) even as just a solidarity payment wouldn't be noticed by a top WT team, but could be useful for a small continental team or amateur outfit.
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  • cj2002

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #143 on: October 28, 2014, 15:52 »
    OK, I've read it.

    It would be all too easy to dismiss Beckett as a marketing hack, full of clichés about blue-sky thinking. But, he has a point. The World Tour brand is meaningless, and he is sticking his head above the parapet to propose some ways of improving it.

    I get the impression he understands cycling - perhaps he even considers himself a fan - his suggestions re: the rainbow jersey aren't made flippantly, for example. Many of his proposals are nothing more than pipe dreams - several are completely unworkable. But if a debate on the future of cycling - a progressive and sustainable future - isn't started soon, we will lose more top-level sponsors, more top-level teams and more historic events.

    Good on Steve Beckett for saying something - anything - that might get some sort of ball rolling in any direction at all!
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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #144 on: November 07, 2014, 11:41 »
     https://twitter.com/SadhbhOS/status/530677871304798208

    putting this here as well, as Marc makes a point we had missed, in the new plan WT would not be abke to compete in races like the Coupe de France series

    and also shows this is not going to be smooth for the UCI to start 
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #145 on: November 07, 2014, 12:20 »

    in the new plan WT would not be abke to compete in races like the Coupe de France series


    Does he say that? All he seems to be saying is that other WT teams (beside the French ones obviously) don't treat the races with respect. Either they send weak teams or “For example, a few years ago, Skil-Shimano, who weren’t in the WorldTour, wanted to get an invitation to the Tour so they did all of the races in France. Once they were well ensconced, we didn’t see them again."

    I don't see anything about WT not being able to do Coupe de France races.



    This graphic from earlier in the thread shows that WT teams can continue to do .HC and .1 races, but obviously it's their choice which ones they do.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #146 on: November 07, 2014, 12:59 »
    Does he say that? All he seems to be saying is that other WT teams (beside the French ones obviously) don't treat the races with respect. Either they send weak teams or “For example, a few years ago, Skil-Shimano, who weren’t in the WorldTour, wanted to get an invitation to the Tour so they did all of the races in France. Once they were well ensconced, we didn’t see them again."

    I don't see anything about WT not being able to do Coupe de France races.



    This graphic from earlier in the thread shows that WT teams can continue to do .HC and .1 races, but obviously it's their choice which ones they do.
    Heres the quote I am think of not direct Coupe but lower level races which Coupe is I guess

    Madiot pointed to the example of Spain, where the gradual devastation of the local racing calendar has led to a drain of sponsors – Movistar is the only remaining WorldTour team – and he expressed concern that a similar process might take place in France. He also gave short shrift to the proposed changes to the UCI calendar that are slated for 2017, which would prevent WorldTour teams from participating in lower-level races.


    “That project should be forgotten. From what I know about it, everything will be reviewed,” Madiot said. “National protectionism should be enacted. We can find an arrangement that would allow greater participation from foreign teams in French races.”



    I guess the other thing to consider is the 80 race day cap for riders (which no one really agress with except the UCI it seems) and less WT riders per team, it maight make hard to even ride a 1.1 race

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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #147 on: November 07, 2014, 13:28 »
    Just out of interest, does anybody know how many race days FDJ had this year? Just want to see how it would compare with what I calculated a WT team under the 2017 rules might race.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #148 on: November 08, 2014, 07:00 »
    All work done via twitter and might take sone work LB

    but race days

    PCS Season Ranking Race Days
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  • « Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 08:09 by Fus87, Reason: edited link »

    Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #149 on: November 08, 2014, 10:05 »
    Thanks for that, but it's the team's race days (not the riders) I'm after really. There doesn't seem to be an option to view that particular stat on either PCS, CQ or Cycling Archives. I guess I'll have to do it manually and go through the list of races (ugh  :P).

    FDJ

    154 WT days (149 presumably next year with no Beijing)
    12 Asian Tour days (Oman and Qatar)
    105 European Tour days (could be +/- a few days, but around this figure)

    Think that's them all, with none in Africa/America/Oceania. Won't count the Worlds.

    So that's ~271 race days in 2014.

    Using my earlier calculations (with assumptions of 22 men teams, every rider races close to the max number of days, reduced teams of 8 or 6 depending on the race etc etc).

    I think it could work for 8 men teams in Division 1 races, and 6 men teams below that.

    A 1A team will have 120 1A races days and say 30 out of the 50 1B days.

    (120+30) x 8 = 1200 rider days to be filled

    Don't know how many days the 22 riders (and maybe there'll be extra room for neo-pros like now) will race, but maybe in the 70-80 range.

    22 x 70 = 1540 rider days
    22 x 80 = 1760 rider days

    1540 - 1200 = 340 free days
    1760 - 1200 = 560 free days

    So they'll have between 340-560 rider days to fill in the lower division races (6 man teams).

    340/6 = ~57
    560/6 = ~93

    So that gives 120 1A race days, 30 1B races days and anywhere between 57 and 93 race days in the lower division.

    Using a maximum of 80 race days per rider could mean losing twenty eight race days [271 - (120+30+93) = 28].

    If you discount Beijing that's 23 days and if you factor in stagiaires then it could be reduced a bit more, but you'd still be looking at losing a few days races if the maximum number was capped at 80.
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  • « Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 12:23 by Leadbelly »

     



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