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Leadbelly

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Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
« Reply #150 on: November 10, 2014, 21:36 »
It's almost as if Velofacts had been reading the last few posts.  :P

http://www.velofacts.com/2014/11/10/number-of-races-of-the-cycling-teams-2014/

275 race days for FDJ according to them.

Some other interesting stats in there (Sky with nearly sixty less race days than AG2R), but that's going off topic a bit.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #151 on: November 13, 2014, 05:20 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-stakeholders-to-meet-in-paris-for-decisive-worldtour-reform-meeting

    a little new news

    team maybe 24 riders now, up from 22 , which brings them quiet a bit closer to what some WT are at now anyway, minus the neo-pros , who would in thus system be Devo riders.

    meeting Thursday to iron out the plan, but it seems the ASO ( as we all could have said before this started) are not playing nice when it doesn't suit them, ie$ .

    This we might see some battle grounds rather than healthy discussion fwiw
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #152 on: November 15, 2014, 06:44 »
    In this case I think no news is not good news

    If the Stakeholders had said nope we are not playing ball, then I think we would have heard already
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #153 on: November 22, 2014, 09:43 »
    http://www.nieuwsblad.be/sportwereld/cnt/dmf20141121_01389427

    Quote
    To get out of the current impasse, Cookson introduced yesterday the Challenge Tour, a completely new competition that has to relate to the World Tour as the Europa League to the Champions League. The Challenge Tour will like the World Tour 120 race days count and also consist of sixteen teams. The World Tour degrades every year one team, whose place is taken by the best team in the Challenge Tour. Ethical criteria - too many doping - would lead to degradation.

    Doesn't sound like that new an idea. Just seems to be a doubled in size Div 1B, but with it being bigger does that mean you have to be in this new Challenge Tour to get a GT invite? Would it force the Italian PCT to join this new grouping just to get their Giro invite? Need more info (as always).
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  • Flo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #154 on: November 22, 2014, 10:11 »
     :S

    Let's just keep it as it is now okay Crookson?
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    Flo

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    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #155 on: November 22, 2014, 10:24 »





    Just read this again. No Catalunya. Pais Vasco second division. All races shortened. Maybe Giro and Vuelta 2 weeks. Do they want to kill Spanish cycling? Do they want to kill cycling? Pais Vasco will lose it's status as one of the Big 5 1 week stage races
    Giro and Vuelta will become even less relevant compared to the tour :barf
    Catalunya 3rd division?
    This means riders like Piti, Alberto,Jrod won't ride Pais Vasco or Catalunya or Cali.

    Fecking hell. Why? I don't understand. Why? Why? Why the need for such retarded changes when things work just fine right now. Feck off Crookson. Crawl back into the hole you came from. Bring back Pat.
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  • Flo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #156 on: November 22, 2014, 10:27 »
    This just makes me so angry and sad and frustrated because I can't do anything about it and the teams and riders just seem to let it happen :angry
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #157 on: November 22, 2014, 11:42 »

    Why the need for such retarded changes when things work just fine right now.

    Are things really working fine at the moment? I'm not so sure, but whether these changes are the solution I don't know.

    I'm just glad I'm not the one who has to satisfy all these disparate groups and find an answer.  :P

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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #158 on: November 22, 2014, 13:22 »
    Do they want to kill Spanish cycling?
    Not necessarily. But Spain is in a deep economical crisis. This project (whether you like it or not) attempts to put cycling on a stable financial basis. Keeping loads of races in a country that's in recession isn't going to help in that regard.

    Fecking hell. Why? I don't understand. Why? Why?
    Money, money, money ... ;)

    Feck off Crookson. Crawl back into the hole you came from. Bring back Pat.
    To be fair, this concept was drawn up during Pat's reign.

    Why the need for such retarded changes when things work just fine right now.
    Why indeed?
    Money is an issue, obviously: Cycling isn't a stable sport right now - ProConti riders not receiving their wages for months (even if it's only one team per year), races not happening for financial reasons etc.
    I see the need to reform the sport from what it is now to something that can be successful and viable in the future, and attractive to sponsors (because cycling isn't ever going to work as a professional sport without them).


    What I disagree on are the details of the plan: Why shorten the traditional 1-week stage races? I can see why P-N and T-A shouldn't overlap, but you could easily run P-N Sunday-Sunday and T-A Tuesday/Wednesday-Tuesday/Wednesday (with a break of only 3-4 days until M-SR). A similar solution could be found for Dauphiné/Suisse.
    Bringing races into line like this without considering their traditional dates & routes, and not least the races around them, isn't going to work. At the moment, T-A is preceded by Roma Maxima & Strade Bianche, both relatively high-prestige races and often contested by the same riders as T-A. Where are they going to be in the new calendar? The plan is top-heavy, but doesn't think about trickle-down effects much.

    Or do it like the Swiss and Poles and have the races coordinate their timetables so that one race (the one with the more interesting stage that day) starts early, the other race (with the less interesting stage) starts late - when race 1 is finished, broadcasters could switch to coverage from race 2 without any break. The next day, positions are changed around, so that race 2 has an interesting stage that starts early and race 1 has a late-starting sprint stage.

    Another issue is the lack of transparency: The introduction of the ProTour 10 years ago was done almost in secret, and very rushed. This one isn't going to start next year, at least - but our public discussions are largely based on guesswork and leaks from one year ago.


    Put the plans on the table!
    Let stakeholders (federations, teams, riders, race organisers, sponsors, fans) discuss them, discover flaws, come up with improvements, and get the sport going forward for the benefit of everybody involved.
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    Mellow Velo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #159 on: November 22, 2014, 15:31 »
     Less we forget, Flo, it was McQuaid who started this ball rolling, quite a few seasons ago.
     I think we can all share the sentiment that this omlette is breaking an awful lot of eggs though.
    I also don't like it one bit, either. I don't follow the logic that says less race days will increase revenue.
    The chase for global money inevitable means that the poor men of Europe will suffer the most.
    Only two years ago, Pais Vasco was dead in the water. Catalunya much the same.
    So, in their eyes, up with affluent Arabian races and down with the traditional Spanish stagers, makes economic sense.

    However, wtf is the Tour of Beijing doing on that calendar?
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    LukasCPH

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #160 on: November 22, 2014, 17:03 »
    However, wtf is the Tour of Beijing doing on that calendar?
    This prospective calendar was drawn up in 2013, when the Tour of Beijing was still well and alive.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #161 on: November 22, 2014, 18:12 »
    This prospective calendar was drawn up in 2013, when the Tour of Beijing was still well and alive.

    Well, I suppose that means a glimmer of hope for one of the Spanish races, perhaps.
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  • Flo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #162 on: November 22, 2014, 19:24 »
    Well, I suppose that means a glimmer of hope for one of the Spanish races, perhaps.

     :=B
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #163 on: November 22, 2014, 21:41 »
    http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/?page=news&cod=74203&tp=n

    Some more (possible) details and some views from interested parties.

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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #164 on: November 23, 2014, 07:57 »
    1st it was drawn up in Pat's time as one idea, he is on recond as saying it will be the death of cycling.

    the 16 team div 2, super smart move, 120 race days up from 50 in old plan , twice as many teams.

    so many euro race days will be saved, also will mean 8 more teams paying large licence fees to the UCI, these teams will all need the same set up as Div 1 teams

    24 riders 8 devo, so more riders with better contracts.

    The div 2 teams will be the wildcard teams for div 1 races so all major what is now PCT will need to step up or basically be what we know as conti teams.

    So basically

    there will be 2 16 team WT running during the year,  win div 2 you go up to div1, lose and you drop down, many of the races which were not part of Div1 or 2 and people getting up set, but had euro historical value may become div 2 races

    such as Pais Vasco or Catalunya

    will add some more later

     
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #165 on: November 23, 2014, 07:59 »
    Ps not read LB post will GT it later
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  • Flo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #166 on: November 23, 2014, 08:16 »
    Quote
    24 riders 8 devo, so more riders with better contracts.

    Nope, name me 1 WT team that has 8 u23 riders at the moment. And we'd see riders like Valgren be downgraded to what is it the devo teams operate on, continental level? Simply because teams don't have room. So every team will be made up of the most talented 25-35y riders. Riders like Tosatto would likely end up on the street. 18x roughly 4 = 72 riders that would lose their job. And I don't think you can force a team to have a devo team. Money problems and all that.

    What is the point of lowering team sizes by 25%? To force more riders out of the sport or into the continental circuit?
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #167 on: November 23, 2014, 09:10 »
    Nope, name me 1 WT team that has 8 u23 riders at the moment. And we'd see riders like Valgren be downgraded to what is it the devo teams operate on, continental level? Simply because teams don't have room. So every team will be made up of the most talented 25-35y riders. Riders like Tosatto would likely end up on the street. 18x roughly 4 = 72 riders that would lose their job. And I don't think you can force a team to have a devo team. Money problems and all that.

    What is the point of lowering team sizes by 25%? To force more riders out of the sport or into the continental circuit?

    nope florry.

    many what we think of PCT have only 18 or so riders, rules are 16.

    so they woukd need more riders.

    So say Drapac want to ride the challenge tour, they would need 8 more rider to come up to 24 and 8 more devo riders, the riders would have the same min wage and other requirements,  so in fact more riders would be at a better level,  Valgren might drop to a Div 2 team sure, but he would be a leader with higher pay.

    At the moment 18 × 30 riders 540 WT riders plus 2*neo 36 = 576 riders, but we know that is not full and if we add 18 riders average to PCT to bring the teams tomthe same amount , som14 ×18 = 252 , 288 + 576 =828 and many of the PCT riders would be devo riders and be better for it

    new system 32 teams 24 riders = 768 full paid riders plus 256 devo riders 1024 riders and at least the 24 riders are a must otherwise teams will not survive.

    another point is the Div 3 would have the devo teams and some other young devo teams, plus some old racers, the racing could be bonkers fun to watch

    somthe new system for full time senor riders 0+/-0 basically



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  • Flo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #168 on: November 23, 2014, 09:32 »
    nope florry.

    many what we think of PCT have only 18 or so riders, rules are 16.

    so they woukd need more riders.

    So say Drapac want to ride the challenge tour, they would need 8 more rider to come up to 24 and 8 more devo riders, the riders would have the same min wage and other requirements,  so in fact more riders would be at a better level,  Valgren might drop to a Div 2 team sure, but he would be a leader with higher pay.

    At the moment 18 × 30 riders 540 WT riders plus 2*neo 36 = 576 riders, but we know that is not full and if we add 18 riders average to PCT to bring the teams tomthe same amount , som14 ×18 = 252 , 288 + 576 =828 and many of the PCT riders would be devo riders and be better for it

    new system 32 teams 24 riders = 768 full paid riders plus 256 devo riders 1024 riders and at least the 24 riders are a must otherwise teams will not survive.

    another point is the Div 3 would have the devo teams and some other young devo teams, plus some old racers, the racing could be bonkers fun to watch

    somthe new system for full time senor riders 0+/-0 basically





    So div 2 = div 1? It's the same level? Challenge tour is WT level? I don't understand anything.

    PS 30 riders per team includes 2 neo

    Quote
    another point is the Div 3 would have the devo teams and some other young devo teams, plus some old racers, the racing could be bonkers fun to watch

    just makes me sad... old loyal workhorses forced to ride div 3 because teams only have room for the best riders

    and teams would never gamble on promising young riders

    like I said riders like Valgren and CJJ or Formolo, Dillier, WEllens for that matter down to conti level

    blegh
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #169 on: November 23, 2014, 09:41 »
    Nope Diller Vakgren would ride Devo then probably div 1 maybe div2

    I will try and write everything I understand in a long post soon
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  • Flo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #170 on: November 23, 2014, 09:44 »
    Nope Diller Vakgren would ride Devo then probably div 1 maybe div2

    I will try and write everything I understand in a long post soon

    yes so they would ride devo until 23yrs then up to div 1/2 then they have to get used to that level. So rider development is much slower. They would get to the level they're at right now at around 25 years old

    devo = conti level

    right?
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #171 on: November 23, 2014, 09:58 »
    Not quite
    yes so they would ride devo until 23yrs then up to div 1/2 then they have to get used to that level. So rider development is much slower. They would get to the level they're at right now at around 25 years old

    devo = conti level

    right?
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #172 on: November 23, 2014, 10:01 »
    Somebody really needs to call the UCI and tell them about that major hole there is in their plan being that the cost of being a D2 team vs what you get doesn't add up.

    At the moment the pro-conti teams are barely surviving (most of them at least) what do these teams get after being D2. Higher fees to UCI, A lot of expensive travels to races that their sponsors could care less about, and of cause they lose the ability to get any starting money from said races, as that money goes to the UCI instead. The expenses basically mean that the pro-conti teams will only survive if they get the invites they want from D2. Note: it will have to be the really big ones ie: Tour, not sure even Giro would be enough for a team to survive.

    This whole scheme will not be good for cycling, and cycling will lose money rather than gain it (although UCI might gain money short term)
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  • Flo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #173 on: November 23, 2014, 10:01 »
     :S :o :beaten
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  • Flo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #174 on: November 23, 2014, 10:03 »
    Quote
    (although UCI might gain money short term)

    Mellow Velo posted on CN :

    Quote
    Ripping the guts out of the old calendar and selling seats and popcorn on enclosed circuits is the reform Cookson is proposing.
    Some people see this as a good thing; the way forward.
    Others, like me, will see it as the (another) sport being dumbed down to sell to the masses.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #175 on: November 23, 2014, 10:16 »
    Mellow Velo posted on CN :

    As far as it being the way forward we have to look at what the result is for a race, lets take Dubai for an example:

    Dubai:

    2014: 16 Teams, 5 conti, 11 WT. Apart from a few of these conti teams (those sponsors by the race organizers anyways) they all collected huge start money. Start money makes up a huge part of a WT teams budget. Many of the conti teams are only in as fillers to allow the invite of that many WT teams, clearly Dubai did not want to spend a lot of money on inviting more conti teams.

    2016: 16 Teams will be forced to ride from div 2 this means that the teams will get no start money, but will have to pay for travel to Dubai instead. At 8 rider per team, it is hard to see the race inviting more than 6 more WT teams getting them to 22, these teams will have to recieve starting money still however when the number of teams receiving starting money is reduced, so is the money that they will get. The other 5 teams get no starting money. The UCI collects money from the race from it being div 2.

    How anybody can see this as a step forward I can't see.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #176 on: November 23, 2014, 10:47 »
    Mellow Velo posted on CN :

    With adding 70 race days to div2 that is simply not true, WT 2.1 1.1 etc etc just different names

    the old 50 day idea yes,

    if the remove the 3rd week of GTs sure, but adding the 70 changes things a lot, people need to be a little less knee jerk reaction

    ]
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  • Flo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #177 on: November 23, 2014, 10:50 »
    With adding 70 race days to div2 that is simply not true, WT 2.1 1.1 etc etc just different names

    the old 50 day idea yes,

    if the remove the 3rd week of GTs sure, but adding the 70 changes things a lot, people need to be a little less knee jerk reaction

    ]

    how can it not be a knee jerk reaction when the UCI won't give us any information while they want to turn the entire system upside down?

    and you can't make me believe it's the same system just different names, why would they want to change it otherwise.

    and they still want to make 24 rider teams, obligatory development teams for each of the 32 (?) teams, salary cap, race day cap, etc
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #178 on: November 23, 2014, 10:55 »
    With adding 70 race days to div2 that is simply not true, WT 2.1 1.1 etc etc just different names

    the old 50 day idea yes,

    if the remove the 3rd week of GTs sure, but adding the 70 changes things a lot, people need to be a little less knee jerk reaction

    ]

    But this just increase the problem, even with the WT today you have loads of races that teams are forced to do that they would not do other wise. Euskatel at Roubaix being the prime example of cause. The div2 is basically a whole collection of such races. With 120 days it is very likely that a team will only see 20 days of racing in an area that interests them. This is a huge problem. Basically the cost of racing races that the team could not care less about vs the gain from a few days in an area of interest plus any div1 invites a team secures. Lack of start money is also a problem of cause.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #179 on: November 23, 2014, 12:48 »
    UCI might gain money short term
    And that's all the Aigle paper-pushers care about.

    I can understand them, the Fendant du Valais doesn't come cheap. ;)
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