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just some guy

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Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
« Reply #240 on: January 13, 2017, 11:13 »
Why is there no reward? The TV companies will have to pay more, there'll be more interest and easier to promote, plus each race will attract more of the stars.

No the UCI have said that WT have to be invited and WT do not have to come, so no difference from being non WT race except for the fact you can say we are a WT in name only
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    Joelsim

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #241 on: January 13, 2017, 11:34 »
    No the UCI have said that WT have to be invited and WT do not have to come, so no difference from being non WT race except for the fact you can say we are a WT in name only

    I think there'll be more WT teams going to each of the races than before, except perhaps Turkey. It also gives younger riders a chance to get a WT win, the likes of Buchmann etc who probably wouldn't be leader for the established WT races.

    I'm happy to give the new schedule a chance.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #242 on: January 13, 2017, 11:39 »
    Think we will have to agree to disagree Joel
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #243 on: January 13, 2017, 11:43 »
    Think we will have to agree to disagree Joel

    Yes, probably.  :lol
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #244 on: January 13, 2017, 12:43 »
     Can new WT races opt out of the UCI's grand scheme of things?
    For instance, why would California want to be in the WT calendar?
    Forced to boot out half of the home teams to comply with the UCI regulations.
    The possibility of being left with an under strength field, if 10 WT teams don't fancy the long trip.
    All for the incentive of being booted back to the regular calendar, the following season.

     The UCI need to learn how to govern, not issue decrees of a dictatorship.
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    Joelsim

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #245 on: January 13, 2017, 13:24 »
    Can new WT races opt out of the UCI's grand scheme of things?
    For instance, why would California want to be in the WT calendar?
    Forced to boot out half of the home teams to comply with the UCI regulations.
    The possibility of being left with an under strength field, if 10 WT teams don't fancy the long trip.
    All for the incentive of being booted back to the regular calendar, the following season.

     The UCI need to learn how to govern, not issue decrees of a dictatorship.

    Is there any suggestion that these new races didn't want to be WT classified? I was under the impression is was a collaborative thing rather than a dictatorship.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #246 on: January 13, 2017, 15:55 »
    The UCI need to learn how to govern, not issue decrees of a dictatorship.
    So very much this.

    Is there any suggestion that these new races didn't want to be WT classified? I was under the impression is was a collaborative thing rather than a dictatorship.
    Oh, they did want to be classified as WT - on the same level as all the other WT races, with compulsory participation of all WT teams.
    But then the UCI realised the teams just wouldn't accept that, and they need the WT teams 1-18 more than they need the WT races 28-37.

    So they freed the teams from having to go, and put all the burden on the new races: "If you don't have at least 10 WT teams, you'll be demoted."

    We don't know how the new races feel about that, and some of the fault is theirs too - they bought a cat in a bag from someone well known to actually put raccoons in bags and sell them as cats. But we may assume that this second-rate deal isn't what they signed up for.
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    mudplugger

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #247 on: January 13, 2017, 16:37 »
    No the UCI have said that WT have to be invited and WT do not have to come, so no difference from being non WT race except for the fact you can say we are a WT in name only

    A situation that strengthens the hand of Velon. It will be interesting to see how many organisers feel obliged to strike deals with Velon as London has.
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #248 on: January 13, 2017, 16:40 »
    So very much this.
    Oh, they did want to be classified as WT - on the same level as all the other WT races, with compulsory participation of all WT teams.
    But then the UCI realised the teams just wouldn't accept that, and they need the WT teams 1-18 more than they need the WT races 28-37.

    So they freed the teams from having to go, and put all the burden on the new races: "If you don't have at least 10 WT teams, you'll be demoted."

    We don't know how the new races feel about that, and some of the fault is theirs too - they bought a cat in a bag from someone well known to actually put raccoons in bags and sell them as cats. But we may assume that this second-rate deal isn't what they signed up for.

    So they've been sold a pup? I'm pretty sure there aren't any raccoons in Lancashire.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #249 on: January 13, 2017, 17:29 »
    This is a very important point

    A situation that strengthens the hand of Velon. It will be interesting to see how many organisers feel obliged to strike deals with Velon as London has.
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  • Armchair Cyclist

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #250 on: January 13, 2017, 17:29 »


    I am fascinated to know who is the one and only Pro Continental signing who will be able to have his points count in WT rankings.
    Or might it be that the UCI press office have a poorer grasp of how to use possessive apostrophes than most 9 year olds that I teach?

    Edit: I now see that this is not from the UCI Press Office, but from Cycling News.  But they are only professional journalists, so why should they be expected to be able to use primary school level English grammar?
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  • « Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 17:47 by Armchair Cyclist »

    LukasCPH

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #251 on: January 13, 2017, 20:11 »
    Or might it be that the UCI press office have a poorer grasp of how to use possessive apostrophes than most 9 year olds that I teach?

    Edit: I now see that this is not from the UCI Press Office, but from Cycling News.  But they are only professional journalists, so why should they be expected to be able to use primary school level English grammar?
    UCI's press office is staffed by Francophones, their English is consistently poor.

    Cycling News ... that's a different issue. I think the problem isn't that they never learned proper grammar, but that it's not a high priority these days. :(
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  • just some guy

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    Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #253 on: August 31, 2018, 09:17 »
    https://www.tuttobiciweb.it/article/2018/08/31/1535645056/la-riforma-che-verra-e-che-non-convince-paolo-broggi-tuttobiciweb

    There have been some reforms the past couple of years with the new WT races, but the main dish has kept on being pushed back and with the details being very sketchy/changeable.

    A (40+ page) report must have been published recently with these details:

    Licences

    At the end of 2019 fifteen WT licences will be given out based on the rankings over the previous three years. The length of licence (4,3 or 2 years) will vary depending on your ranking. Extra years (1 or 2) will added at the end of the season depending on how you ranked during that year.

    Grand Tours

    15 WT teams + 5 best ranked PCT teams (assuming they want to ride) + 2 wildcards

    Teams

    WT: 25-30 riders and minimum budget of 12 million euros
    PCT:  20-30 riders

    Both of these classes must contribute to the development of cycling in one way or another (5 proposals are given).

    CT: 10-16 riders and on the biological passport

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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #254 on: August 31, 2018, 14:26 »
    *lots of stuff about how to 'reform' men's pro cycling
    And women's cycling? :-x

    I expect they simply didn't think of that.
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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #255 on: September 01, 2018, 23:09 »

    WT: 25-30 riders and minimum budget of 12 million euros
    PCT:  20-30 riders

    Both of these classes must contribute to the development of cycling in one way or another (5 proposals are given).

    In this respect I've had a thought that one way you might be able to encourage WT/PCT team to have their own U23/CT team is to allow some fluidity between the 2 squads. You have the professional team and the U23/CT but at certain races you allow mixed teams where both squads would be eligible to race. So at 1.1, 1.HC, 2.1, 2.HC you could have teams made up from riders of both the WT/PCT team and the CT/U23 team. You would need to put limits on things such as riders contracted to the U23/CT must have raced the majority of their season in .2, .2u and .Ncup races so as they are still genuinely a devo team rather than allowing an extension to the Pro team but it's just a thought I've had on the issue and would need to be refined.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #256 on: September 04, 2018, 15:34 »
    I'm not sold on the compulsory development team idea. If you go through all the current WT and PCT teams which ones would you say need a devo team for whatever reason?

    #astana #didata #academy - developing riders from their own non-traditional cycling nation/continent is part of their ethos and there isn't anyone else really to do it

    #mitchelton - isolated geographically (but in the age of modern air travel even this isn't as much of an issue any more) and talented youngsters need racing further afield

    #novonordisk - special diabetic case

    Having a devo team can turn things into a bit of a closed shop as well. I'm thinking Caja here mainly (Direct Energie are a bit guilty too). When was the last time they signed a Spanish youngster that didn't ride for their amateur team. Maybe the PCT-ization of Burgos and Euskadi will change this, but in countries with one or two big teams I could see this having a detrimental effect on smaller CT teams or amateur ones who find themselves in competition with the devo team.

    If we're talking helping out grassroots/low level cycling I prefer the idea of solidarity payments to a rider's previous clubs/teams if he signs for a WT/PCT team rather than a compulsory devo team.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #257 on: September 04, 2018, 16:22 »
    Licences

    At the end of 2019 fifteen WT licences will be given out based on the rankings over the previous three years.

    I'm guessing it wouldn't be a straight adding up of all the points over the course of the three year period, but would be weighted towards the more recent results. Even so, some teams should be a bit worried going by their points from '17 and '18 campaigns.

    Bottom of the table by a country mile, no matter how you calculate the rankings, are Dimension Data. Awful year all round, but their transfers so far might give them a shot of performing that big comeback in 2019 that they need. If they can get a top-7 or so GT rider (Konrad?) to add to the one-day and certain stage race scoring potential of Valgren etc, they might just do it.

    The other two teams in the drop zone by my reckoning are Groupama and Katusha.

    Even if Kittel manages to get back to top form I still don't see his team getting the points. We saw when Cavendish won four stages at the Tour in 2016 that stage wins just don't give many points, you need GC results and one day performances. Some okay signings, but they don't scream points to me.

    Groupama have made one of the best signings of the year in Kung, but is it enough? To use a footballing analogy, imo they have a strong first XI, but if somebody gets injured at the wrong time they could be in trouble.

    Who else could get dragged in? EF-Drapac of course, Lotto Soudal or even UAE.

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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #258 on: September 18, 2018, 09:11 »
    https://twitter.com/velonews/status/1040600835682709504

    Turkeys aren't going to vote for Xmas are they.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #259 on: September 25, 2018, 20:16 »
    :fanfare :fanfare

    https://cyclingpro.net/spaziociclismo/worldtour/uci-annunciata-la-riforma-2020-cambiamenti-a-calendario-squadre-licenze-e-wildcard/

    As of 2020....

    The race calendar will be divided into WT, Pro Series (HC and .1) and Continental (.2).

    PCT teams will be renamed ProTeams.

    There will be 18 WT teams (27-30 riders) and they'll be given 3-year licences.

    There will be a new ranking system that will take into account all results across the globe and enable better comparison between teams of all three levels.

    The top two ProTeams in this new ranking will get automatic invites to GTs (it doesn't say when the ranking will be taken into account - end of the previous year or two months before the race?) and for the other WT races it will be the top three. If they don't want to go for whatever reason, the wildcard goes back to the organizer and not to the 3rd or 4th ranked team.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #260 on: September 25, 2018, 22:02 »
    :fanfare :fanfare
    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    :x_x
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #261 on: September 26, 2018, 08:34 »
    Renaming stuff is the equivalent of putting some fresh magnolia paint over the cracks in the walls, but the WT teams look to have come out of this with rather more than the version of a month ago.

    No reduction in numbers down to 15. Fairly lengthy licences for all 18 teams. Ten riders scoring points favours them more over the PCT teams.

    The new ranking system should be interesting.

    The change in wildcards is a sop to the PCT teams and is at least something for them to aim for, but might not give too many changes. I guess Wanty might have ridden the Giro as well this year if it had been in force, but would probably have skipped the Vuelta.
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  • rote_laterne

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #262 on: September 26, 2018, 22:27 »
    The change in wildcards is a sop to the PCT teams and is at least something for them to aim for, but might not give too many changes. I guess Wanty might have ridden the Giro as well this year if it had been in force, but would probably have skipped the Vuelta.

    I'm rather pessimistic about the new system. PCT usually don't have enough strong riders for two GTs a year. And while I think some teams now might get the chance to ride a GT because of their ranking more PCT teams will struggle to get invitations.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #263 on: November 09, 2018, 05:45 »
    In this respect I've had a thought that one way you might be able to encourage WT/PCT team to have their own U23/CT team is to allow some fluidity between the 2 squads. You have the professional team and the U23/CT but at certain races you allow mixed teams where both squads would be eligible to race. So at 1.1, 1.HC, 2.1, 2.HC you could have teams made up from riders of both the WT/PCT team and the CT/U23 team.

    Your wish is the UCI's command.

    https://www.directvelo.com/actualite/70557/des-coureurs-du-worldtour-en-classe-2

    Quote
    The creation of a reserve team (called "development" by the UCI) is one of the possibilities offered to the WorldTour and Continental Pro (1) teams to " contribute to the development of cycling " from 2020

    One of the principles of these reserve teams will be to be able to mix the numbers of the two formations "mother-daughter".

    For the future UCI ProSeries races, limited to 7 riders per team, the WorldTour or UCI ProTeam team can align two riders maximum of the development team.

    In Class 1 races, the 1st or 2nd division team may enter three of its riders with up to four riders from its reserve. In the other direction, the development team can add up to two riders from the parent team.

    Finally, in Class 2 events where only the reserve team can be invited by the organizers, a rider from the WorldTour team will be able to participate with the development team.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #264 on: December 23, 2018, 07:36 »
    https://cyclingpro.net/spaziociclismo/worldtour/uci-annunciata-la-riforma-2020-cambiamenti-a-calendario-squadre-licenze-e-wildcard/

    Some graphics to explain the reforms, but very little new stuff to report other than the fact that the auto-wildcards will be granted on the rankings "at the end of the previous season".
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #265 on: October 01, 2019, 11:23 »
    I guess this fits in here:
    https://www.velon.cc/news/2019/9/27/velon-files-ec-complaint-uci

    Velon files an anti-trust complaint against the UCI with the European Commission.

    Quote
    On 20 September 2019, Velon, with the unanimous support of its shareholders, submitted an anti-trust Complaint to the European Commission against the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) based on Articles 101 and 102 TFEU.

    Velon has asked the European Commission to investigate the way the UCI has implemented existing regulations and sought to introduce new ones that are designed to favour the UCI’s business interests to the detriment of the teams.

    In the past year the UCI has tried to stop what Velon and the teams have pioneered in their joint business on new races (the team v team “Hammer Series”) and technology. Velon and its shareholder and partner teams hoped and expected that its initiatives would be supported by the UCI, as had been the case in previous years. However, in the past 12 months the UCI has used its regulatory power and political leverage to seek to block the business activities of Velon and the teams in an incorrect and unlawful manner.

    In February the UCI ruled that Hammer Races may not be referred to as a Series under UCI regulations. No explanation has ever been given. Velon, and the teams competing at Hammer events, continued to race for the Series – one of the key, unique features of the new races – despite the UCI’s threat that they may refuse to register Hammer Races in the 2020 calendar if we did.

    Despite the positive reception to the Hammer Series by the fans, teams and riders and strong interest from potential race organiser partners and host cities to stage a Hammer race, the opposition by the UCI has significantly hampered the development of the Series.

    Earlier this year the UCI passed new technical regulations without due process or consultation with any of the stakeholders in the sport (even with its own Equipment and Technology Fraud Commission) that sought to give itself and race organisers ownership and control over the teams’ business on live race data.

    The UCI today believes that it should not only be the regulator for the sport but also take new business creation from its stakeholders without their consent. The UCI feels entitled to use its regulatory powers for its own commercial benefit and to take the rights of the teams and riders without consultation or permission.

    Despite continued efforts by Velon to engage with the UCI relating to our concerns on their actions, the UCI has refused any constructive dialogue for over a year. Consequently, Velon and its teams have been left with no alternative but to submit the Complaint to the European Commission with the objective of having an external authority’s assessment as to whether the conduct of the UCI in regard to the above matters (in particular its use of its regulatory power and political leverage) infringes EU competition rules.

    The Velon teams took the decision to openly publish the fact that they filed the Complaint and a summary of their reasons for doing so in order to avoid any misunderstanding of their actions. Detailed information has been provided to the EU Competition Commission and whilst their review is ongoing, we respect their process and do not wish to place additional information in the public domain.

    For those who seek further background information regarding Velon’s role and the new technology and the new form of racing that Velon’s teams and partners have pioneered, please see the context notes related to this letter.

    Our desire is for a stable, predictable and fair regulatory environment for the sport that treats the teams, riders and race organisers in equal manner. Velon, its shareholders and partners, want the development of new ideas, to attract new investment and to create a better business model so that professional road cycling continues to strengthen and develop for the fans and everyone involved in the sport.

    Graham Bartlett, CEO

    For and on behalf of Velon Ltd, BORA-hansgrohe, CCC Team, Deceuninck - Quick-Step, EF Education First, Lotto Soudal, Mitchelton-SCOTT, Team INEOS, Team Jumbo-Visma, Team Sunweb, Trek-Segafredo and UAE Team Emirates.

    There's some irony in Velon, an association of ten WorldTour teams, filing an anti-trust suit - but I think it's good that the UCI will now face some outside scrutiny.
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  • Leadbelly

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    Re: UCI Road Map For Cycling
    « Reply #266 on: October 05, 2019, 19:28 »
    https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1180393456461594625

    Only the UCI could start off with 18 teams, state they want to lower that to 15, but end up with 20.
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