collapse


just some guy

  • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
  • Hall of Fame'r
  • Country: 00
  • Posts: 31324
  • Liked: 10901
  • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2013, 11:05 »
so basically division 2 is like a small version of the WT is now but with 50 race days


for those that like short posts   ;)
  • ReplyReply
  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    mc_mountain

    • Road Captain
    • *
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 1376
    • Liked: 921
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #31 on: October 08, 2013, 11:06 »
    isnt the 50 day allocation for DIV2, the days they can race in DIV1 races?
  • ReplyReply
  • Youth CQ Game originator.

    just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #32 on: October 08, 2013, 11:09 »
    You said it twice. So don't talk about lies, please because these comments were real errors of facts !

    quoting out of context now

    to paraphrase I said the UCI made a maximum length of stages and 1 day race which is a good thing, That quote you have used it blaming the whole change of race on the UCI , but the organizers made the profile and length of the race up to a certain distance. do you see that ?

     
  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 11048
    • Liked: 6923
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #33 on: October 08, 2013, 11:10 »
    make an orderly line for those confused or wish to point out spelling mistakes
    First in line for those confused! :win
    Or maybe second behind mc_mountain.

    As it is now, this is several times more confusing than the World Championships qualification criteria, and that's saying something.
  • ReplyReply
  • Cyclingnews Women's WorldTour Correspondent
    2017 0711|CYCLING PR Manager; 2016 Stölting Content Editor
    Views presented are my own. RIP Keith & Sean

    just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #34 on: October 08, 2013, 11:11 »
    isnt the 50 day allocation for DIV2, the days they can race in DIV1 races?

    It can not be otherwise all division 2 teams would have to race at the same 50 days

    You can not pick and choose which of your 50 days give you points , makes even less sense than this system and the WT put together
  • ReplyReply

  • KeithJamesMc

    • Road Captain
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 1696
    • Liked: 1396
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #35 on: October 08, 2013, 11:13 »
    I just see it all as the start of an extremely long negotiation process.

    Pretty stupid of the UCI to put half cooked plans out there like that.
  • ReplyReply

  • Caruut

    • 2nd Year Pro
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 375
    • Liked: 502
      • Sporcle quizzes on cycling.
    • Awards: Post of 2014
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #36 on: October 08, 2013, 11:16 »
    In my mind this kind of behaviour is yet more evidence that those in charge of cycling are wilfully ignoring or fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the sport. Many of the changes seem to me like they have gone "What will work? Well, football is pretty successful, let's take a leaf out of their book."

    This will not work. In football, teams do not "specialise" as they drop down the divisions; they still have the same basic goals and objectives. Manchester United and Reading, despite vast differences in size, approach each game and each season in much the same way. In each game they must score more than the opposition, and in each season they want nothing more than to simply win as many games as they can.

    In cycling, things are different. Lotto and Euskaltel are both teams that would likely fit into the second tier under a new system, but are just very different squads with very different goals. Lotto are famous for taking a lax approach to the GTs, while the high mountains of the three week races are bread and butter for the Basque climbers.

    Forcing all these teams to compete within 50 race days simply means that they are forced to spread their resources much less efficiently. It would be a crying shame if Lotto were packing the autobus in Catalunya while a decent Belgian race were taking place, just as it would be tragic to see a Carrot injured on the cobbles with an important stage race coming up.

    Ultimately races and teams seem to do an awfully good job of matching themselves to each other without the UCI sticking their over-intrusive noses into things. Why we cannot just let everyone get on with what they do best instead of constantly forcing them to race in situations that they really aren't built for is utterly beyond me.
  • ReplyReply

  • AG

    • Monument Winner
    • *
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 6510
    • Liked: 3915
    • Awards: Winner, 2013 National Championships prediction gameFan of the Year 2013
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #37 on: October 08, 2013, 11:17 »
    ridiculous.   and I didnt think anything could be more confusing than the worlds qualification system
  • ReplyReply

  • mc_mountain

    • Road Captain
    • *
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 1376
    • Liked: 921
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #38 on: October 08, 2013, 11:18 »
    It can not be otherwise all division 2 teams would have to race at the same 50 days

    You can not pick and choose which of your 50 days give you points , makes even less sense than this system and the WT put together

    but if DIV2 team rides a DIV1 race as a wildcard how do they benefit from getting a good result (other than prestige/sponsor).  why would it have to be the same races?
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #39 on: October 08, 2013, 11:33 »
    but if DIV2 team rides a DIV1 race as a wildcard how do they benefit from getting a good result (other than prestige/sponsor).  why would it have to be the same races?

    but if DIV2 team rides a DIV1 race as a wildcard how do they benefit from getting a good result (other than prestige/sponsor)  The same thing occurs now with the WT and pro conti

    So i Rolland was to win the TDF it would not count towards WT points for Europcar  ( well it does but not is true ladder meaning ) so all the historical races would be important , but a smart division 2 manager will have their strongest teams in the division 2 races if they want to go up to division 1

    why would it have to be the same races?

    How else do you define the strongest team if they do not compete against each other ?

    How do the UCI decide what are the 50 days ?  and is a stage the same as a 1 day race

    the only way I can see this is thinking about 2 separate divisions

    same as football ( I think as I do not watch it ) in England

    you have a top division and 2nd division inter division games count as your teams position on the ladder which may mean promotion and relegation , I also assume there is an even amount of games played say 1 home 1 away for each team in the division against each other.

    Then you have all the cups where teams from different divisions compete against each other

    So in this case division 1 is decided on the 120 division 1 race days only for division 1 teams

    and division 2 is  decided on the 50 division 2 race days only for division 2 teams

    no where does it say that I can see division 2 is decided by race results of 50 days in division 1 races
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #40 on: October 08, 2013, 11:39 »
    In my mind this kind of behaviour is yet more evidence that those in charge of cycling are wilfully ignoring or fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the sport. Many of the changes seem to me like they have gone "What will work? Well, football is pretty successful, let's take a leaf out of their book."

    This will not work. In football, teams do not "specialise" as they drop down the divisions; they still have the same basic goals and objectives. Manchester United and Reading, despite vast differences in size, approach each game and each season in much the same way. In each game they must score more than the opposition, and in each season they want nothing more than to simply win as many games as they can.

    In cycling, things are different. Lotto and Euskaltel are both teams that would likely fit into the second tier under a new system, but are just very different squads with very different goals. Lotto are famous for taking a lax approach to the GTs, while the high mountains of the three week races are bread and butter for the Basque climbers.

    Forcing all these teams to compete within 50 race days simply means that they are forced to spread their resources much less efficiently. It would be a crying shame if Lotto were packing the autobus in Catalunya while a decent Belgian race were taking place, just as it would be tragic to see a Carrot injured on the cobbles with an important stage race coming up.

    Ultimately races and teams seem to do an awfully good job of matching themselves to each other without the UCI sticking their over-intrusive noses into things. Why we cannot just let everyone get on with what they do best instead of constantly forcing them to race in situations that they really aren't built for is utterly beyond me.

    One thing is though there will be no cross over days of racing.

    so Lotto´s A team could be training for a div 1 race when the climbers are in Spain earning points in the div 2 race
  • ReplyReply

  • mc_mountain

    • Road Captain
    • *
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 1376
    • Liked: 921
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #41 on: October 08, 2013, 11:56 »
    but if DIV2 team rides a DIV1 race as a wildcard how do they benefit from getting a good result (other than prestige/sponsor)  The same thing occurs now with the WT and pro conti

    So i Rolland was to win the TDF it would not count towards WT points for Europcar  ( well it does but not is true ladder meaning ) so all the historical races would be important , but a smart division 2 manager will have their strongest teams in the division 2 races if they want to go up to division 1

    why would it have to be the same races?

    How else do you define the strongest team if they do not compete against each other ?

    How do the UCI decide what are the 50 days ?  and is a stage the same as a 1 day race

    the only way I can see this is thinking about 2 separate divisions

    same as football ( I think as I do not watch it ) in England

    you have a top division and 2nd division inter division games count as your teams position on the ladder which may mean promotion and relegation , I also assume there is an even amount of games played say 1 home 1 away for each team in the division against each other.

    Then you have all the cups where teams from different divisions compete against each other

    So in this case division 1 is decided on the 120 division 1 race days only for division 1 teams

    and division 2 is  decided on the 50 division 2 race days only for division 2 teams

    no where does it say that I can see division 2 is decided by race results of 50 days in division 1 races

    I am more and more convinced I disagree JSG.

    Quote from: inrng

    The reform proposes clearer promotion and relegation criteria with two divisions although it seems these will still race the top races but on a reduced basis, perhaps only getting a few invitations to fill their quota of 50 days per year.


    I agree with your Rolland example but that's without a promotion opportunity built in.  As you say in your scenario DIV2 would put their strongest teams in the DIV2 races, so their weaker teams in the DIV1 races would dilute those races.  I dont think there will be DIV2 races though.

    I dont think you have to judge the DIV2 teams on races together, just on the ability to perform against a set criteria, ie compete at WT/DIV1 level.

  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #42 on: October 08, 2013, 12:05 »
    we can agree to disagree

    But I disagree with inrng also  :D   ;)



    looks very clearly to me 2 WT type systems with relegation , promotion

    no where does it say the 50 days come out of the 120 it is very separate

  • ReplyReply

  • mc_mountain

    • Road Captain
    • *
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 1376
    • Liked: 921
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #43 on: October 08, 2013, 12:15 »
    we can agree to disagree


    of course.

    Quote

    no where does it say the 50 days come out of the 120 it is very separate

    Indeed, but I think that is a reasonable possibility.  It also raises the possibility that 120 days is just the total for each team, ie DIV1 teams dont have to ride every WT race, as this isnt explicitly stated either. 

    I might also anticipate that Division 3 teams arent necessarily excluded from WT races (even though this isnt represented in the diagram).
  • ReplyReply

  • Dim

    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 8403
    • Liked: 3365
      • Velorooms
    • Awards: Race Preview of 2014Best Post 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #44 on: October 08, 2013, 13:24 »
    The second division race days is NOT 50. This is purely how many days they will be ranked based on days raced in the top level.

    The second division teams will not only race fifty days in total, that would be utterly ludicrous. Do you really think second division teams will be made up of ten riders, with one team car and a minibus????? Because thats all youd need for 50 days.

    There will not be a seperate division 2 calendar. Just how can you put together a race calendar with only 8 teams?  Because of the maths on the WT race days, the Div 2 teams will have to ride AT LEAST 50 days of world tour racing just to make sure the races have full attendance.

    Those fifty days of racing at WT level, will get WT ranking points, in exactly the same way as they do now.

    Its pretty simple, Division 1 teams race at World Tour level for 120 days and get ranked
    Division 2 teams race 50 days at World Tour level, and get ranked based on that, they then race europe, asia, africa tour etc.
    Pro Conti Teams - race at euro, asia, africa tour level, and get wild cards for world tour events.

  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #45 on: October 08, 2013, 13:30 »
    The second division race days is NOT 50. This is purely how many days they will be ranked based on days raced in the top level.

    The second division teams will not only race fifty days in total, that would be utterly ludicrous. Do you really think second division teams will be made up of ten riders, with one team car and a minibus????? Because thats all youd need for 50 days.

    There will not be a seperate division 2 calendar. Just how can you put together a race calendar with only 8 teams?  Because of the maths on the WT race days, the Div 2 teams will have to ride AT LEAST 50 days of world tour racing just to make sure the races have full attendance.

    Those fifty days of racing at WT level, will get WT ranking points, in exactly the same way as they do now.

    Its pretty simple, Division 1 teams race at World Tour level for 120 days and get ranked
    Division 2 teams race 50 days at World Tour level, and get ranked based on that, they then race europe, asia, africa tour etc.
    Pro Conti Teams - race at euro, asia, africa tour level, and get wild cards for world tour events.

    never said they would race 50 days look at what I wrote

    They will race in Div 1 race as well and even Europe tour or Asia etc - If my reading is right the teams of Div 1 and 2 will be the base teams of each of those division of races the rest of the teams will be made up of wildcards

    since you have decided that the 50 come out of the 120 how do you fairly decide on who wins div 2

    it can not be done fairly imho , the only way is if all teams ride the same races hence the div of race days
  • ReplyReply

  • Dim

    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 8403
    • Liked: 3365
      • Velorooms
    • Awards: Race Preview of 2014Best Post 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #46 on: October 08, 2013, 13:32 »
    since you have decided that the 50 come out of the 120 how do you fairly decide on who wins div 2

    it can not be done fairly imho , the only way is if all teams ride the same races hence the div of race days

    exactly. it is completely and utterly flawed as an idea. Mathematically it doesnt add up, feasibly it doesnt add up, and the teams and race organisers will tell the uci to stick it. :)
  • ReplyReply

  • sublimit

    • National Champion
    • Country: eh
    • Posts: 887
    • Liked: 159
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #47 on: October 08, 2013, 14:03 »
    So theoretically you could ace the Eneco, Tour Down Under or Tour of God knows where etc then bomb in a grand Tour but still win Div 2?              :S

    The idea of Rusvelo riding a GT for points would be kind of amusing though for the laffs.
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #48 on: October 09, 2013, 12:58 »
    UCI, SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES by Fabrizio Viani   

    First division: 16 teams (120 days of racing).
    Second division: 8 teams (50 days of racing). These teams will be able to be invited to participate in division 1 races, however only the results from the 50 days of 2nd division racing will be taken in consideration for promotion/relegation.
    Third division: will comprise of and Pro Continental and Continental teams. Pro Conti teams could access to HC or 1.1 and 2.1 races, while Conti teams will only be able to race 1.2 and 2.2 races. All third division points will be taken from races in Europe, America, Asia, Africa and Oceania Tours.

    All the three divisions will have relegations and promotions (no number of teams given as yet)

     :D

  • ReplyReply

  • DB-Coop

    • Classics Winner
    • *
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 2662
    • Liked: 1751
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC Memorial award for Extremely Outstanding Content 2014Avatar of 2014Velorooms Vuelta Velogames Winner 2014
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #49 on: October 09, 2013, 13:39 »
    UCI, SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES by Fabrizio Viani   

    First division: 16 teams (120 days of racing).
    Second division: 8 teams (50 days of racing). These teams will be able to be invited to participate in division 1 races, however only the results from the 50 days of 2nd division racing will be taken in consideration for promotion/relegation.
    Third division: will comprise of and Pro Continental and Continental teams. Pro Conti teams could access to HC or 1.1 and 2.1 races, while Conti teams will only be able to race 1.2 and 2.2 races. All third division points will be taken from races in Europe, America, Asia, Africa and Oceania Tours.

    All the three divisions will have relegations and promotions (no number of teams given as yet)

     :D

    Sounds like pro conti can't get wildcards to div 1 and 2 events, ASO is going to be upset if they can't invite more freely than that I think. So next years WT and the 6 best pro conti teams, this would really hurt cycling. Cost of a div 2 team compared to a pro conti team would be high and pro conti would be useless without invites to big races, meaning every year some crap team would be moved up and a div 2 team move down. Hence one of the div 2 spots would be wasted on an uncompetitive team always. Also if 2 teams is relegated the chance of moving down from div 1 to 2 would be huge, honestly why do the UCI think they need to use the same NOT working aproach that soccer and f1 is using, their ranking system where season long success is the goal makes certain games and races pointless to even watch, if this happens I hope someody sets up a pirate league. I really want to see what ranking they would give different races, is Omloop Het Niewsblad HC or 2nd div?
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #50 on: October 09, 2013, 13:47 »
    Sounds like pro conti can't get wildcards to div 1 and 2 events, ASO is going to be upset if they can't invite more freely than that I think. So next years WT and the 6 best pro conti teams, this would really hurt cycling. Cost of a div 2 team compared to a pro conti team would be high and pro conti would be useless without invites to big races, meaning every year some crap team would be moved up and a div 2 team move down. Hence one of the div 2 spots would be wasted on an uncompetitive team always. Also if 2 teams is relegated the chance of moving down from div 1 to 2 would be huge, honestly why do the UCI think they need to use the same NOT working aproach that soccer and f1 is using, their ranking system where season long success is the goal makes certain games and races pointless to even watch, if this happens I hope someody sets up a pirate league. I really want to see what ranking they would give different races, is Omloop Het Niewsblad HC or 2nd div?

    agreed on all points,

    really hurts cycling in many ways , but it gives more power and money to RCS and ASO so not sure they care

    it hurts the smaller promotors and if I am half right div 2 will be very expensive as they will be doing a lot of travel

    Omloop Het Niewsblad My guess would be div 2 ,
  • ReplyReply

  • DB-Coop

    • Classics Winner
    • *
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 2662
    • Liked: 1751
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC Memorial award for Extremely Outstanding Content 2014Avatar of 2014Velorooms Vuelta Velogames Winner 2014
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #51 on: October 09, 2013, 13:53 »
    agreed on all points,

    really hurts cycling in many ways , but it gives more power and money to RCS and ASO so not sure they care

    it hurts the smaller promotors and if I am half right div 2 will be very expensive as they will be doing a lot of travel

    Omloop Het Niewsblad My guess would be div 2 ,

    I am thinking the stage races are actually like the ones Lefevre talked about, new races around the globe, both for Div 1 and 2, I don't think all the current races will remain. And classics was to be cut down to just the monuments. Honestly I can not imagine a worse suggestion. What I imagine is a whole season of Beijing-ish races that no one care about because they have no prestige and races at HC level that are much more important to win like the Paris-Tours is compared to Montreal. It is a really big same.
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #52 on: October 09, 2013, 13:56 »
    I am thinking the stage races are actually like the ones Lefevre talked about, new races around the globe, both for Div 1 and 2, I don't think all the current races will remain. And classics was to be cut down to just the monuments. Honestly I can not imagine a worse suggestion. What I imagine is a whole season of Beijing-ish races that no one care about because they have no prestige and races at HC level that are much more important to win like the Paris-Tours is compared to Montreal. It is a really big same.

    Not sure it will be that bad

    I think many of the older races ie T-A P-N etc will remain , spring will be as it is just better orgainsed the GT will be the same but less teams , which is good - I think Div 1 races will be good worse than now but okish , T-A and P-N and the Tour lead up races not on at the same time is good but at 6 days ??

    Div 2 will be you 5 day every race is the same stuff for stage racing , spring will be ok

  • ReplyReply

  • DB-Coop

    • Classics Winner
    • *
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 2662
    • Liked: 1751
    • Awards: KeithJamesMC Memorial award for Extremely Outstanding Content 2014Avatar of 2014Velorooms Vuelta Velogames Winner 2014
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #53 on: October 09, 2013, 14:09 »
    T-A and P-N and the Tour lead up races not on at the same time is good but at 6 days ??

    Honestly they should just schedule one to end earlier than the other, then having them overlap wouldn't be bad. It would be like a double header, they would show the last 70-60 km of both races instead of now where they show those Km's overlapping, would make for so much more good bike racing on TV.
  • ReplyReply

  • Francois the Postman

    • National Champion
    • Country: scotland
    • Posts: 825
    • Liked: 947
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #54 on: October 09, 2013, 14:41 »
    Sometimes you get a bit of paper on the table with some many 'that doesn't make sense' and 'surely they don't mean... because...' lines, that the Tea Party part of my brain throws such a wobbler in one part of one half of my brain that it triggers a shutdown of of the entire grey mass up there.

    I tried to read it several times, and I think instead I will wait to see what comes on the table when they have actually thought through what makes sense and talked to the people who this will affect properly.

    Last time I checked, we are partly down this 'global development' route, and instead of the brisk spectacle that we would get as a result of the WT points competition, with growing numbers of teams and sponsors slugging it out for much sought after guaranteed WT spots, we can't even get enough teams on the road willing to acquire such a license, and for once, having earned WT points also means nada in the musical chair transfer circus that it unleashes on all of us each year. And it gaves us Beijing. Stop laughing please.

    Yes, the sport is growing outside it's heartland. But the mens RR circus has become more profitable, not healthier. WT license, anyone? Pretty please? And it's not like we now have five Hinault's competing. It's still mostly one, with two or three others if there is a sudden weak knee.

    It will be a bit, but we have been promised a new future in which riders and race organisers, and sponsors, are being put back around the UCI table and can actually say stuff that affects the lunacy that Pat was trying to shoehorn cycling into.

    Rather than plough on with this plan, I hope some sanity returns, and someone at the UCI will realise that road cycling isn't a "one thing", so trying to create the "one easy story" monstrosity  that someone thinks we need so the networks and media can embrace it easily, as it can be sold easier to "the audience" out there, makes as much sense as trying to create a single global competition out of Rugby, Football (Soccer), American Football, and One Day Ping Pong, as hey, they all use balls and audiences find it hard to get enthusiastic across the board for these.

    Anyone who even dares to utter the phrase "all the best riders will be there throughout" should be flogged in public as knowing sod all about the reality of road racing where maybe one to five riders are 'the best' for a given race on a given day, if they want to be in form and actually compete for it for starters. And the same brainiac obviously hasn't realised that reducing the amount of actual race days for in effect the same amount, or even less riders is as far from 'growing the sport globally' as you can possibly get. It is spreading the same sport thinner, just more profitable for some.  And hope good things will happen as a result, whilst the reality is "WT license anyone?..... anyone?".

    If they come up with a 2020 plan that doesn't lead to more races than we have calendar days for, for more riders than we have places for, in more division one leagues than we currently have places for, with even more overcrowding problems further down the division lines, than we are in real trouble. I want to see the bold initiative that takes dealing with race-day calendar conflicts as the reality to aim for, not avoid.

    Creating a male RR reality that only ever has place for 22-ish teams at the current level is a doom-scenario that should have been flushed down the same Florence sewer that Pat & Co were sent into.

    Wake me up when someone puts something on the table that actually starts to think about how to grow our sport properly, as opposed to replacing like for fake 'made in china' like.
  • ReplyReply

  • Carlo Algatrensig

    • National Champion
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 768
    • Liked: 879
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #55 on: October 09, 2013, 20:51 »
    UCI, SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES by Fabrizio Viani   

    First division: 16 teams (120 days of racing).
    Second division: 8 teams (50 days of racing). These teams will be able to be invited to participate in division 1 races, however only the results from the 50 days of 2nd division racing will be taken in consideration for promotion/relegation.
    Third division: will comprise of and Pro Continental and Continental teams. Pro Conti teams could access to HC or 1.1 and 2.1 races, while Conti teams will only be able to race 1.2 and 2.2 races. All third division points will be taken from races in Europe, America, Asia, Africa and Oceania Tours.

    All the three divisions will have relegations and promotions (no number of teams given as yet)

     :D

    Would any exceptions be made to which teams can ride which races. For example would exemptions be made so team could ride their national tour if they aren't of a high enough ranking to normally ride in it. Looking at it from a British perspective none of the smaller British teams would be able to ride the Tour of Britain as it is a 2.1 race as most of them are only Continental teams not Pro Continental so would only be allowed to ride 2.2 stage races if I'm reading things correctly.
  • ReplyReply

  • Carlo Algatrensig

    • National Champion
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 768
    • Liked: 879
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #56 on: October 09, 2013, 22:58 »
    Last time I checked, we are partly down this 'global development' route, and instead of the brisk spectacle that we would get as a result of the WT points competition, with growing numbers of teams and sponsors slugging it out for much sought after guaranteed WT spots, we can't even get enough teams on the road willing to acquire such a license, and for once, having earned WT points also means nada in the musical chair transfer circus that it unleashes on all of us each year. And it gaves us Beijing. Stop laughing please.

    The problem with the global development of the sport is that it would need teams with truly global sponsors for it to make any sense. Unless the WT races like Beijing and the Canadian Races get proper coverage in their home markets why would team really want to race them. What is the point of compelling a team like FDJ to ride in beijing when no one gives a crap about the race as it gets little or no coverage back in france when it is ridden at the same time as Paris-Tours which would be a far more important race to the sponsor but considered of less importance to the UCi and the globalization agenda.
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #57 on: October 10, 2013, 05:36 »
    Would any exceptions be made to which teams can ride which races. For example would exemptions be made so team could ride their national tour if they aren't of a high enough ranking to normally ride in it. Looking at it from a British perspective none of the smaller British teams would be able to ride the Tour of Britain as it is a 2.1 race as most of them are only Continental teams not Pro Continental so would only be allowed to ride 2.2 stage races if I'm reading things correctly.

    No idea tbh, and being div 2 (if it is in the new system) means that there are a lot of wildcards to fill. Say 8 div 2 plus sky , 9 teams which would mean 13 wildcards , I guess 1 UK team so 12 that's a lot , maybe conti teams fill spots if no one wants to ride. The other thing to consider is up to 22 of the teams will have been at the vuelta,and somewhere in this time the 2 Canadian races, so the tob might not be so popular and need conti to fill spots ???

    I do think the only 1 div or 2 race at one time will not work during GT's
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012

    just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 31324
    • Liked: 10901
    • Awards: 2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: 2020 the road map for cycling
    « Reply #59 on: October 30, 2013, 15:45 »


    seems to be basically what I said here

    Ok so what do we have , bit of mess with some positives

    we have a race calendar running from Feb to October start of month to end = 273 days

    we have a total of 170 race days of no overlap, which is broken down to 120 1st division race days and 50 2nd division race days  so we will have 103 days during this time with no racing

    we have 16 1st division teams and 8 2nd division teams 

    the 16 1st division teams must race the 1st division events as this goes to the end of year total , I assume this will mean there will be some sort of relegation of bottom team or 2 bottom teams.

    the 8 2nd division teams must race the 2nd division events as this goes to the end of year total , I assume this will mean there will be some sort of promotion of top team or 2 top teams.

    Stage races will be 5-6 days long so some of the Historical stage races will be reduced in distance and only 1 race from either division 1 or 2 can be runing at the same time ( not a bad thing ) so T-A and P-N can not clash , but as inrng pointed out  when a 21 stage plus 2 rest days Grand tour is going on , that is right no other division 1 or 2 races .

    So if a rider skips the Giro , not racing same for the TDF , and Vuelta So a few probable division 2 races will have to be moved .

    We also have number of teams

    next year we will have 22 WT and at this stage 16 Pro conti  ie 38 teams of riders, staff etc employed

    This will be reduced  24 teams , which will require less riders and staff due to less race days and no clashes

    another way to look at is

    16 division 1 teams ie the old WT

    8 division 2 teams ie the bottom 8 WT teams plus the top 2 Pro Conti teams make up a new class/division of cycling teams

    pro-conti still exists but it now with the Conti teams which will be the European tour, African tour , Oceania Tour and American tour.

    So back to Division 1 race 120 we will need to reduce the WT by 33 days - some through reduced days of stage races others will become division 2 races

    all 16 division 1 teams will race division 1 race days with wild cards coming from division 2 teams . Only the points earned by division 1 teams at these races count towards to end of season division 1  ladder - similar to now and WT races and being a pro conti team. I also assume division 2 teams can race all 120 division 1 race days if they so choose and were given wild cards .

    All 8 division 2 teams will race the 50 division 2 races and wild cards coming from division 1 and I assume pro conti , I also assume both division 1 and Pro conti could race all 50 division 2 race days if the so choose and were given wild cards. But only the points of these races have any meaning for the 8 division 2 teams - these will be important to go up to division 1 and possibly down to pro conti


    # team must compete * race days in there division
    16 division 1 teams 120
    8 division 2 teams 50
    ? Pro Conti & Continental ?


    say we look at what will be division 2 races , there is no way there can not only be 50 division 2 race days if we take Qatar, Oman, Dubai and the hearld Sun tour in Australia as 2 division races at 5 days each that will be 20 days before a pedal has been turned in Europe add Utan , Pro cycling challenge and California at 5 days each and we are at 35 which would leave a grand total of 15 left for Europe division 2 and San Luis is expanding so 5 more days and we have 10 left for Europe . Plus the expense of being a division 2 team would be greater than division 1 as they must ride division 2 races to get there points. To have a fair system the division teams must compete against each other, you can not have 1 team not riding a race and other scoring points.

    Probably my longest no rant post ever

    make an orderly line for those confused or wish to point out spelling mistakes

    pps Fus has been typing when I have and we have made a similer point
  • ReplyReply

  •  

    Recent Posts



    Top
    Back to top