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DB-Coop

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Re: General news season 2015
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2015, 09:45 »
Madiot vs. Tinkov: where do you stand?

Madiot of cause, turning cycling into a business[1] is the worst case scenario if you ask me, it puts money in the investors pockets at the expense of riders and fans. Without the fans cycling could not exist, without the riders cycling couldn't exist. The money men like Oleg is really the least important part. What do we need him for? securing money to build a new stadium? That isn't a thing in cycling.
 1. Okay it already sort of is, but it is not making huge profits for the owners
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  • QuintanaWiggo

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    Re: General news season 2015
    « Reply #61 on: July 31, 2015, 09:52 »
    Madiot of cause, turning cycling into a business[1] is the worst case scenario if you ask me, it puts money in the investors pockets at the expense of riders and fans. Without the fans cycling could not exist, without the riders cycling couldn't exist. The money men like Oleg is really the least important part. What do we need him for? securing money to build a new stadium? That isn't a thing in cycling.
     1. Okay it already sort of is, but it is not making huge profits for the owners

    Helpful footnote...    :cool :)  just in case we were thinking er 
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  • just some guy

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    L'arri

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #63 on: January 18, 2016, 08:57 »
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/offredo-in-a-neo-pro-mode-at-tour-down-under/



    The last guy I remember really bursting into my conscious during the Classics the way Offredo did was probably Bardet and his trajectory has just continued to climb.

    I'm not going to do the Offredo Hype again this season. He was occasionally exciting in 2015 but he isn't a pretty boy any longer and the big(ger) results haven't really come in.

    He seems to confirm here that he did some porridge for his suspension by playing domestique (presumably for Démare) but it's 2016 already. Pinot apart, #fdj were pretty rough last season and things need to improve chez Madiot.

    Instead of trying to look like One Direction's fifth man, Offredo needs to get some direction of his own.
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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #65 on: January 28, 2016, 10:39 »
    A little bit context to the Pinot open to considering offers from other teams from last week..

    Cycling weekly reports

    This reminds me of a similar conversation on VR last year about how to progress talented French riders. I'd love him to stay at FDJ, but would Thibaut be better elsewhere. It's a conundrum.
    Quote
    French insiders say, however, that going abroad or new helpers are needed for their top talents to excel in the Tour de France.

    “You have to have a stronger team to progress [in the Tour],” Cédric Vasseur, winner of two Tour stages and wearer of the yellow jersey, told Cycling Weekly. “We saw what Froome won because of his team, without Wout Poels and Richie Porte, he would have lost the yellow jersey on the Alpe d’Huez.

    “The French structure needs to grow to support these riders. You can’t focus on winning the Tour de France if you don’t have that. The team need to sign a domestique to protect them in the Tour, men like Ian Stannard, Kanstantsin Siutsou and Vasil Kiryienka, those guys are top domestiques.”

    Cedric also goes on to outline why it's difficult for the French teams (and maybe FDJ i particular) to sign non-french top riders to their squads

    Quote
    Vasseur said it is harder for FDJ to sign foreigners because the team is sponsored by the national lottery and because high taxes make it even more costly to sign top cyclists.

    “That’s the problem, the French have taxes. When they want a strong team, they need the money and have to pay the taxes. It’s not the same as Sky and BMC, they pay €1 million for a rider and that’s that, but in a French team, with the taxes, the same riders costs 1.5 million.

    My gut feeling is Thibaut will stay past 2016... but the head wonders if that is for the best ;p
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #66 on: January 28, 2016, 12:16 »
    This reminds me of a similar conversation on VR last year about how to progress talented French riders. I'd love him to stay at FDJ, but would Thibaut be better elsewhere. It's a conundrum.
    Cedric also goes on to outline why it's difficult for the French teams (and maybe FDJ i particular) to sign non-french top riders to their squads

    My gut feeling is Thibaut will stay past 2016... but the head wonders if that is for the best ;p
    Yes, the French teams are at a disadvantage with regards to having to pay the riders' income tax: If a rider asks for 1 million, they mean 1 million on their bank account, not 1 million out of the team's bank account and 650k on their own.

    I wonder if a crafty team could get around this by (pro forma) basing itself in Monaco - but as #fdj are sponsored by the state lottery, they're unlikely to do it. #ag2r couldn't do it either as the sponsoring company would likely get a huge backlash; #delko etc. are part-funded by regional authorities, so they can't do it either.


    That said, I think it's right that the French authorities demand that teams pay taxes and social security for their riders as I'm a big fan of the welfare state. But I realise that I'll be relatively alone with that viewpoint in cycling ... :D
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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #67 on: January 28, 2016, 13:18 »
    Yes, the French teams are at a disadvantage with regards to having to pay the riders' income tax: If a rider asks for 1 million, they mean 1 million on their bank account, not 1 million out of the team's bank account and 650k on their own.

    I wonder if a crafty team could get around this by (pro forma) basing itself in Monaco - but as #fdj are sponsored by the state lottery, they're unlikely to do it. #ag2r couldn't do it either as the sponsoring company would likely get a huge backlash; #delko etc. are part-funded by regional authorities, so they can't do it either.

    That said, I think it's right that the French authorities demand that teams pay taxes and social security for their riders as I'm a big fan of the welfare state. But I realise that I'll be relatively alone with that viewpoint in cycling ... :D

    I just wonder why it's a particular problem in France.. Most countries surely have an income tax of sorts that anyone working has to pay... even if there are various tax avoidance schemes to be worked around. As for your last remark... not as unpopular as you might think
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #68 on: January 28, 2016, 13:33 »
    I just wonder why it's a particular problem in France.. Most countries surely have an income tax of sorts that anyone working has to pay... even if there are various tax avoidance schemes to be worked around.
    They do, in theory. But in most other countries, pro cyclists can be classified as self-employed who are then hired by the team; that gives serious tax discounts - and shifts the tax burden onto the riders. Guess why so many live in Monaco, and why several riders have back taxes to pay if their tax avoidance schemes don't work out (Rebellin is one example).

    All this is not accepted by the French tax authorities who treat riders as employed by the team, invoking the regular tax & social security rates.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #69 on: January 28, 2016, 14:36 »
    My gut feeling is Thibaut will stay past 2016... but the head wonders if that is for the best ;p

    Pinot will stay because of his brother: he's basically been an FDJ-funded lab rat since age 17. It's a bit like Voeckler with Bernaudeau only moreso because of the scientific element.

    I agree with Vasseur's sentiment quoted upthread but his leadership at #fdj is totally undisputed, whereas most other WT teams of the sort of strength approved by Vasseur already have their GC leaders in place.

    Quality GT GCers are somewhat in abundance right now. I have no idea, for example, how Brailsford intends to juggle the egos of Froome, Landa and Intxausti with those of Thomas and Kwiatkowski in full-on "I Wanna Do GC" mode.
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  • DJW

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #70 on: January 28, 2016, 15:12 »

    That said, I think it's right that the French authorities demand that teams pay taxes and social security for their riders as I'm a big fan of the welfare state. But I realise that I'll be relatively alone with that viewpoint in cycling ... :D

    I'm with you Lukas!

    Iirc a year or two ago a group of French football teams in Ligue 1 complained about AS Monaco's recent funding because any money they had effectively went further because of their lower taxes.

    I can't remember how or if that was resolved, but it's really a pretty lame excuse to cover up an ineffective transfer policy and dearth of homegrown talent.

    I have no idea, for example, how Brailsford intends to juggle the egos of Froome, Landa and Intxausti with those of Thomas and Kwiatkowski in full-on "I Wanna Do GC" mode.

    Probably the same way that he has handled Wiggins, König, Nieve, Uran and others over the years which is that they will just have to work themselves to death until Froome crashes into a bench and they can prove how good they are by making up two minutes and finishing 6th.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #71 on: January 28, 2016, 20:22 »
    They do, in theory. But in most other countries, pro cyclists can be classified as self-employed who are then hired by the team; that gives serious tax discounts - and shifts the tax burden onto the riders. Guess why so many live in Monaco, and why several riders have back taxes to pay if their tax avoidance schemes don't work out (Rebellin is one example).

    All this is not accepted by the French tax authorities who treat riders as employed by the team, invoking the regular tax & social security rates.

    Surely that can't be the case I mean if you live and train in Luxembourg then that is your main place of employment, and as such you should pay tax there under EU rules, no?
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #72 on: January 29, 2016, 01:20 »
    Surely that can't be the case I mean if you live and train in Luxembourg then that is your main place of employment, and as such you should pay tax there under EU rules, no?
    You'd think so, yes.
    Maybe this is just the French teams grasping at another excuse ... but I think the French authorities are quite strict in enforcing this stuff. As in, the team is based in France, so you're employed in France - even if you're a Dutchman who lives in Italy and races all over the world (to give a hypothetical example).
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  • stereojet

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #73 on: January 29, 2016, 09:42 »
    You'd think so, yes.
    Maybe this is just the French teams grasping at another excuse ... but I think the French authorities are quite strict in enforcing this stuff. As in, the team is based in France, so you're employed in France - even if you're a Dutchman who lives in Italy and races all over the world (to give a hypothetical example).

    Slightly OT, but this would possibly explain why the French government has been far more aggressive in tackling Google's tax avoidance than, say, the British government.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #74 on: January 29, 2016, 18:13 »
    You'd think so, yes.
    Maybe this is just the French teams grasping at another excuse ... but I think the French authorities are quite strict in enforcing this stuff. As in, the team is based in France, so you're employed in France - even if you're a Dutchman who lives in Italy and races all over the world (to give a hypothetical example).

    But I mean Vittel is French but if you work in Spain for them, you will be taxed there, and should thus not pay in France.

    Basically the residence should be determinant for cyclist almost in all cases no? I mean even if France is saying you have to pay this could lead to double taxation, as why would Spain give up their claim?
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  • Joelsim

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #75 on: January 29, 2016, 18:21 »
    Slightly OT, but this would possibly explain why the French government has been far more aggressive in tackling Google's tax avoidance than, say, the British government.

    The problem is with online companies. Tax is due where their equipment is, in Google's case in Dublin, so tax is due there rather than on their UK earnings.

    Bunch of *****.

    Until there is an international agreement from all countries this will continue to be the case. Personally I don't use Amazon any more, nor do I ever drink a Starbucks. Unfortunately I have to use Google for my business because they are so dominant and I can't get my website seen very well without them which peees me off.



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  • « Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 18:48 by Joelsim »

    LukasCPH

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #76 on: January 30, 2016, 04:26 »
    But I mean Vittel is French but if you work in Spain for them, you will be taxed there, and should thus not pay in France.

    Basically the residence should be determinant for cyclist almost in all cases no? I mean even if France is saying you have to pay this could lead to double taxation, as why would Spain give up their claim?
    I'm not sure really, but I think that Vittel would have a subsidiary "Vittel Spain" where their Spanish workforce is employed.
    #ag2r won't have "AG2R La Mondiale Ciclismo España" where their Spanish riders (if they had any) would be contracted.

    Whichever way it is - it's an interesting topic: The influence of taxes on cycling.
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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #77 on: January 30, 2016, 07:49 »
    I'm not sure really, but I think that Vittel would have a subsidiary "Vittel Spain" where their Spanish workforce is employed.
    #ag2r won't have "AG2R La Mondiale Ciclismo España" where their Spanish riders (if they had any) would be contracted.

    Whichever way it is - it's an interesting topic: The influence of taxes on cycling.

    True, but the real issue is not this, the problem is that said rider has to pay tax in Spain, if he does not it is tax avoidance. So if they are forced by France to pay there, it would be a major issue.
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  • Carlo Algatrensig

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #78 on: January 30, 2016, 08:12 »
    True, but the real issue is not this, the problem is that said rider has to pay tax in Spain, if he does not it is tax avoidance. So if they are forced by France to pay there, it would be a major issue.

    I always thought the situation in that case was that any tax you paid in another country on your income could be written off against what you would pay where you were living.
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  • Armchair Cyclist

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #79 on: January 30, 2016, 08:31 »
    I think the issue is employers' tax liabilities, not those of the employee (which are indeed due in place of residence).  In terms of ASSO (social services contributions), the burden on the employer is considerably more than that on the employee.

    Having said that, Wikipedia (not always the most reliable source, but...) states, "Subject to French tax are people having their tax domicile in France, i.e. natural or legal persons either living in France, i.e. who have their homes or their principal residence in France; working in France; having the center (sic) of their economic interests in France. Only one of these criteria is sufficient for a person to be treated as taxable." 
    So it might be that a Belgian living in Spain and riding for a French team is considered to have "the center of their economic interests in France."

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  • just some guy

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #81 on: March 21, 2016, 11:04 »
    quite a good article on FDJ

    http://www.liberation.fr/sports/2016/03/20/arnaud-demare-pave-dans-la-mare_1440897

    in French, but google translate will do the job (or maybe Larri later on ;) )
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    just some guy

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #83 on: April 08, 2016, 08:36 »
    Good News....

     #LePetit will be pinning his first dossard of 2016 next week  :cool
    Scheduled for GP de Denain, Tour du Finistère and, if all goes well, Tour de Romandie.



    Must have been a heck of knee problem
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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #84 on: October 06, 2016, 09:12 »
    Nice little read about the Odd Viking's first year at FDJ

    https://twitter.com/procyclingno/status/783936475071148032

    Quote
    About language deficits, culture differences and interpretation of hjelperytter role in the FDJ

    The' interpretation of a role as domestique' for a team must be something every young riders faces when they move up into a first pro contract.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #85 on: October 12, 2016, 12:06 »
    Quo vadis Offredo? Anyone know?
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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #86 on: October 12, 2016, 13:05 »
    Quo vadis Offredo? Anyone know?
    off to Wanty is the rumor
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  • t-72

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #87 on: October 31, 2017, 20:12 »
    Kicking life back into the FDJ thread, just because Offredo is gone doesn't mean there isn't anything to write about, right, ....girls?

    https://twitter.com/DanielHoelgaard/status/925334587957547010

    Classy photos for a classy rider and his wife!

    (and FDJ support among the female population continues to dwindle, I read  :P)
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  • Not My Circus

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #88 on: November 01, 2017, 09:26 »
    Kicking life back into the FDJ thread, just because Offredo is gone doesn't mean there isn't anything to write about, right, ....girls?

    https://twitter.com/DanielHoelgaard/status/925334587957547010

    Classy photos for a classy rider and his wife!

    (and FDJ support among the female population continues to dwindle, I read  :P)

    <3 this time of year... cyclist weddings galore and Daniel and his bride look picture perfect.

    As for FDJ, if the instagram images coming out of Guadeloupe are anything to go by, I can't see the female (or male) support dwindling at all  ;p  And soon, very soon, there will be the 'meet the fans pre-season get together' where the Odd Viking made such a hit. I shall miss him, but there is still the Alain Delon of FDJ to look out for. #HappyDays
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  • Not My Circus

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    Re: FDJ news
    « Reply #89 on: November 21, 2017, 14:43 »
    FDJ team camp news

    Last weekend was the date for the traditional meet and greet the fans that FDJ  #fdj and now FDJ-Nouvelle Aquitaine-Futuroscope #futuroscope  kick off their training camps with. This year they were at Futuroscope

    https://twitter.com/EquipeFDJ/status/932009194802294790

    Where Monsieur Madiot kicked off proceedings with his best Airline safety demonstration  impersonation ;p
    https://twitter.com/EquipeFDJ/status/931833871628492801

    After a merry evening the following day saw them ride out with fans -  and this bemused me

    https://twitter.com/EquipeFDJ/status/932178874972164096

    Turns out they were supporting the Movember cause, which YAAY. It did remind me of the Europcar classic though
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=cXhGRp0o6mY

    As it turns out, this was the 'fun'part because since then they've been recreating Riis style Team CSC bootcamp[1] #ZEUTALORS

    https://twitter.com/jacopoguarnieri

    Look at their faces honest to god I can't stop laughing  :lol

    Luckily it seems it was only for a night and soon they will be zooming off to Calpe for some sunshine (well rain) to accompany their bike rides.
     1. which least we forget here and has perhaps one of my favourite Special photos
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