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neppe

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Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2014, 00:58 »
Even though I am Swedish, my remark was ironic. Sure you can compare Sweden with Ethiopia and Belarus if you want to.

On a serious note, your numbers are quite misleading if you are making a point about number of test conducted per nation without controlling for the number of licensed cross country skiers. You will find Norway and Finland low on that count too.  I don't know if you have read the book written by Mads Drange. The result from the Norwegian anti-doping work is one can only conclude ADA or not an ADA, if there is no will there's no way to catch the cheaters.

I don't think that just because you have something that you call an "ADA" on a piece of  paper it will automatically translate to good anti-doping work.




Post Merge: April 19, 2014, 19:03
The sad truth is that anti-doping work is exceedingly expensive. Why not do the other thing around? Reimburse each  ADA for their hard work for each athlete caught vioaling the WADA-code.

The numbers of EPO tests are not for skiing. They are all the EPO tests taken by those authoreties in 2012. (Denmark are not EPO testing their two cross country skiers 4 times a month)

I've read Mads Dranges book. ADA doesn't equal good anti-doping, but no ADA equals bad anti-doping.

The problem with the Swedish system is that the athletes and the anti-doping officials are both "employed" by the national federation. When asked about (not) investigating cycling's past and Swedish riders Kristina Olander, the head of the Swedish anti doping authorety answered: "- Ja, det är väl klart att det skulle vara önskvärt, om inte annat så är de rena så är det ju en fördel att få fram det." She views it as her job to prove that Swedish athletes are clean. That is not her job. And she should be glad that it isn't her job, because no one can be proven to be clean. Her job is to make it possible for clean athletes to compete.

http://www.eurosport.se/malenas-cykelblogg_blog249/klassens-ljus_post2490645/blogpostfull.shtml
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  • « Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 01:27 by neppe »

    Gotland

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #61 on: November 27, 2014, 19:13 »


    I've read Mads Dranges book. ADA doesn't equal good anti-doping, but no ADA equals bad anti-doping.


    Sorry, for my late reply. I'm rather occupied working these days and most unwillingly neglect spend time reading and participating in the Veloroom's discourse.   I saw this reply by pure chance so don't expect an answer any time soon.  But I miss you all and the atmospehere in VR.

    Okay Sweden's anti doping work is crap. But I wouldn't put my money on Norway doing a bang up job on anti doping either. With Mads Dranges book in mind AND that you guys used to win everything in XC-sking in the 90's with exceedingly high  blood levels running through the skiers veins  ;)

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #62 on: January 11, 2015, 18:04 »
    There will be around 4 retro-active positives from 2013-14 season being made public tomorrow -Biathlalon
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    Larri Nov 12, 2014

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    Joe Devola

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #64 on: April 14, 2015, 23:36 »
    You can file this one under "level playing field".

    Abnormal hematologic profiles in elite cross-country skiers: blood doping or?
    Stray-Gundersen J1, Videman T, Penttilä I, Lereim I.

    Quote
    Samples were obtained as part of routine International Ski Federation blood testing procedures from participants at the [2001] World Ski Championships. 68% of all skiers and 92% of those finishing in the top 10 places were tested.

    Using flow cytometry, we analyzed erythrocyte and reticulocyte indices. Reference values were from the 1989 Nordic Ski World Championships data set and the International Olympic Committee Erythropoietin 2000 project.

    Of the skiers tested and finishing within the top 50 places in the competitions, 17% had "highly abnormal" hematologic profiles, 19% had "abnormal" values, and 64% were normal. 50% of medal winners and 33% of those finishing from 4th to 10th place had highly abnormal hematologic profiles. In contrast, only 3% of skiers finishing from 41st to 50th place had highly abnormal values.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12792206
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #65 on: October 13, 2016, 09:53 »
    https://twitter.com/2sporten/status/786488896330862592

    some sort of lip cream for burnt lips apparently
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #67 on: October 13, 2016, 16:07 »
    here is a package of Trofodermin, as sold in Italian pharmacies...



    even if it looks different in Norway... how likely is it that a team doctor does now?! Come on...

    edit:

    Quote
    (gt) The cream is not for sale in Norway. In a press release writing Ski Federation that the cream was purchased at a pharmacy in Italy. It was national team doctor Fredrik S. Bendiksen who bought the cream, and gave it to Johaug on the evening of September 4, 2016. Johaug used the cream until September 15th.

    http://www.nettavisen.no/sport/dette-er-trofodermin/3423272286.html

    :lol
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #68 on: October 13, 2016, 16:14 »
    an Italian pharmacy already confirmed that all packages of Trofodermin are tagged with that "doping" sign  :cool

    http://www.framtidinord.no/ntb/sport/2016/10/13/Dagbladet-Apoteket-i-Livigno-bekrefter-dopingmerking-13639451.ece
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #69 on: October 13, 2016, 18:02 »
    an Italian pharmacy already confirmed that all packages of Trofodermin are tagged with that "doping" sign  :cool

    http://www.framtidinord.no/ntb/sport/2016/10/13/Dagbladet-Apoteket-i-Livigno-bekrefter-dopingmerking-13639451.ece
    The sign could be interpreted as it not being doping, though, since the word is crossed out by the red bar?
    A warning ought to be with a red ring only, no?
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    t-72

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #70 on: October 13, 2016, 23:14 »
    The sign could be interpreted as it not being doping, though, since the word is crossed out by the red bar?
    A warning ought to be with a red ring only, no?

    I guess one could only interpret it as "not doping" if there were a lot of other products marked that way. There is still some uncontaminated stuff out there that you can buy  :cool

    I think this case is bad,  of course, I have been an active skier myself (not x-c) but worst of all:  it completely masks the magnificent victory of Kristoffer Halvorsen in the men's U23 road race world championship today. Then again, I beg to differ - because I think most readers here know more than the average person about doping. In my opinion, this case is nowhere near as bad as the case concerning Martin Jonsrud Sundby. It resembles Simon Yate's case in the way that there seems to be a doctor's quite stupid mistake as an important ingredient. However, most importantly, steroids for a climber (that's her performance profile) would normally not be the performance enhancing drugs of choice. She doesn't score high on explosivity but she's a duracell bunny that's impossible to stop when in top shape. She was steps ahead of the rest of the world's skiers last year and as I am a cycling fan now I wouldn't really be surprised if she was caught doping, if it was EPO or blood doping or something like that. some  oxygen related substance -but not steroids.
    If the story they are telling is found to be true, I would think this should end up with something like the Sinon Yates ban (4 months in competition) - basically one lost season.

     
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #71 on: October 13, 2016, 23:27 »
    well, #can14 Agostini got 15 months for the same stuff, just on the butt instead of the lips, but yeah... Johaug's supporters probably have got a bit more power
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  • « Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 12:26 by LukasCPH »

    t-72

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #72 on: October 14, 2016, 11:34 »
    I wouldn't necessarily support the decision in the Agostini case.  However, this case (Johaug) is a very good illustration of how much of a tragedy doping is. The damage done extends beyond the limits of cross-country skiing. The cycling World Championship is now close to a non-event in the press here. Doffen Halvorsen will be the least noticed cycling world champion in Norwegian history. His market value inside Norway will be way below what it potentially could have been - because of Johaug.
    Today, 2.8 pages in the paper for Johaug and that last 0.2 page for a cycling gold medal winner.  In the major newspaper in the next city to host the cycling world's  :(

    Sent fra min C6603 via Tapatalk

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #73 on: October 14, 2016, 11:44 »
    well, question is, how much of the story is true of course (in both cases). I am not familiar with the details of this drug, but I guess it could be a side effect of something else as well.

    If it's only about a sunburnt lip, it's a non-story - but that's quite a big if, in my opinion
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #74 on: October 14, 2016, 12:25 »
    I guess one could only interpret it as "not doping" if there were a lot of other products marked that way. There is still some uncontaminated stuff out there that you can buy  :cool
    Looking back I think I simply thought a bit too hard about the sign.
    If there's a "forbidden" sign and the word doping on a medication, you don't give it to an elite athlete, period.
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #75 on: October 19, 2016, 11:03 »
     :S

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/norways-johaug-suspended-for-2-months/2016/10/19/a26820a0-95de-11e6-9cae-2a3574e296a6_story.html?tid=twisira

    but well, that's 4 World Cup weekends and the whole Tour de Ski preparation she misses at least, it could have been worse...
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #76 on: October 19, 2016, 11:08 »
    :S

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/norways-johaug-suspended-for-2-months/2016/10/19/a26820a0-95de-11e6-9cae-2a3574e296a6_story.html?tid=twisira

    but well, that's 6 World Cup weekend and the whole Tour de Ski preparation she misses at least, it could have been worse...

    she is suspended while the investigation takes place -  it might be longer in the end

    FIS have a weird rule that you don´t have to stand down after the A sample but after the B , it is up to the country Norway and Johaug said they were going to keep racing, FIS president said that is not a good idea think about it ....

    So might be longer or not 
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    t-72

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #78 on: January 07, 2017, 12:00 »
    A little story on the PR, media, and doping in skiing today...

    Today (X-C skiing Tour de Ski is ongoing), I woke up to fresh headlines concerning how Johaug's doctor could have messed up about the lip balm. I admittedly didn't bother reading it, as I am quite annoyed already by the Norwegian press - especially NRK (state-run broadcaster) using all kinds of reformulations to avoid stating that Sundby and Johaug have both been caught doping according to the letter of the law. They have used medicine wrongly etc etc have been shut out from competition and so on. They have not been doping. The d-word seems to be removed from the vocabulary.

    The Johaug camp is running a sizeable propaganda machinery to whitewash her and any news release concerning her supposed innocense I consider a possible result a successfull "placement" of a story by the PR people connected to her (her clothing brand was worth millions but probably less now).  The more I hear/see/read, the more disgusted by it I get. That is why I didn't even bother reading the story below the headline news today.

    However, there isn't only Tour de Ski going on there is also the German-Austrian ski jumping week (no idea how that translates to English actually :) ) - and there is the new high-flying Norwegian comet Daniel-André Tande. Yesterday he was leading the overall standings with only one jump remaining, and an average performance would secure the victory. He flopped totally in that jump, due to a problem with his gear. He ended in 3rd overall, which is a pretty decent result for a young skier, and after the immediate disappointment most agreed that this was to be celebrated, instead of crying over the victory that was lost. They would have a review and find out what went wrong and so on, but they were not intent on making a big fuzz about the failure.

    Then, only a few hours after the johaug story was published, it gets replaced by a story on Daniel-André Tande saying he takes full responsibility for what happened, and that it was caused by a mistake he made in the preparations. He is not only not blaming everyone else, he is expressively taking all the blame himself.
    The way it appeared it was possible to see a subtle criticism of the X-C camp and not-my-fault-Johaug especially - although it wasn't mentioned in the text: it was not what was being said, it was what was being done. Brilliantly done  :D

     
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #79 on: January 23, 2017, 08:39 »
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #80 on: January 31, 2017, 12:21 »
    Biathlon, but anyway

    https://twitter.com/RaiSuedtirol/status/826399717756174336

    former World Champion Gottlieb Taschler (who is on court today because he sent his son to Ferrari in 2010) says he didn't know about Michele's past :lol :lol
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #81 on: January 31, 2017, 13:00 »
    former World Champion Gottlieb Taschler (who is on court today because he sent his son to Ferrari in 2010) says he didn't know about Michele's past :lol :lol
    You couldn't make it up! :fp
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    just some guy

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    « Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 16:49 by LukasCPH »

    LukasCPH

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #84 on: February 09, 2017, 16:50 »
    Willy Voet would be proud
    :fp

    Is 2016-2017 the time when history repeats itself as a farce?
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #85 on: February 09, 2017, 20:35 »
    I saw Lukas had posted in a thread about cross country skiing, so just thought I'd drop in and say "See - you care!"  :D

    Then I realized I must ask the moderator to move this thread to the "Doping in Biathlon" thread  :P
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #86 on: February 09, 2017, 20:37 »
    I saw Lukas had posted in a thread about cross country skiing, so just thought I'd drop in and say "See - you care!"  :D
    This is about doping, it just so happens to be in a skiing discipline. :P

    Then I realized I must ask the moderator to move this thread to the "Doping in Biathlon" thread  :P
    Since we don't have such a thread, I'll rename this one to "Doping in XC skiing & biathlon". ;)
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #87 on: February 09, 2017, 20:43 »
    This is about doping, it just so happens to be in a skiing discipline. :P
    Since we don't have such a thread, I'll rename this one to "Doping in XC skiing & biathlon". ;)

    OK, I get it - you really don't care! That's like having a thread called "Doping in Road Racing and Triathlon".    :)
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #88 on: February 09, 2017, 21:02 »
    OK, I get it - you really don't care!
    For the purposes of endurance doping, cross-country skiing and biathlon are the same thing.
    The biathletes just have to be able to get their heartrate down for the shooting, that's the only difference.

    Or am I over-simplifying that?
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #89 on: February 27, 2017, 14:48 »
    it's official now. Marit Bjørgen is clean. She signed for it on a big ball

    https://twitter.com/FISCrossCountry/status/836217931285549056

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