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t-72

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Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2017, 21:05 »
I find Marit Bjørgen's performances more consistent than Therese Johaug's. Therese actually jumped the rest of the field (from being among the best on all terrains and the best climber - in the tour de ski finale - to being the best on all terrain, no exception - the year she tested positive for clostebol.

Otherwise, I think the Norwegian XC skiing team reads the rules on asthma stuff and nebulizers quite similar to Team Sky ie they will take it to the legal limit even if it's ethically questionable. The swedes seems to be in the other camp there. Looking at other means to improve performance, it is not completely consequently always so. Norwegians will not use "altitude tents" (national ban for all sports) even though it is allowed elsewhere (fwiw I think Bauke Mollema used it while preparing for the TdF a few years back, I seem to remember Lars Petter Nordhaug mumbling about not having the same opportuinities as the others on the team.) That's not an excuse for nebulizing away saltwiter and other substances not on the banned list, but to show that there is more than one opinion on these matters in Norway. 

PS: I rather thought the focus on X-C skiing and Norway these days was about "most incredible screw up on the finish straight"  :shh I wouldn't stop you from considering the Norwegians invincible, but  :lol
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #91 on: February 27, 2017, 21:42 »
    well, Iversen looked cooked, he probably wouldn't have won anyway I guess?

    And year, it wasn't really supposed to be an accusation. I just thought it was odd that anyone who wants can sign on a crystal ball and the FIS advertised it as "Athletes [...] sign[ing] on for clean sport", no matter how dodgy they potentially are. Would Legkov and so on be allowed to sign there as well in case the CAS had decided differently?

    Sure, you are probably right about the Norwegians staying (mostly) within some kind of limits, but there's no way I would call it an example for clean sports.
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    t-72

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #92 on: February 27, 2017, 22:11 »
    You see various cases of athletes signing up for clean sports - either by putting their name on a piece of paper or by putting "I run clean" on their gear. This seems to happen in many sports in many countries. If you put yourself in the athlete's position - and your national federation ask you to "please sign here, it is good for our public relations" - how could you ever refuse?

    The only case close to an exception is Martin Johnsrud Sundby but he refused to sign a letter from the athletes to the FIS or some other federation, not an order from the FIS or NSF (Norwegian Ski federation). Until he had better time to think about the consequences he would not sign it, he said. I don't know his motivation for that, but unlike most other skiers he has a doping history, and that may influence his point of view.

    Anyway, back to my original point: if your federation, team or club says "please sign this anti-doping petition here, it will be good for our PR and the relations with our current sponsors and facilitate establishing contact with new sponsors for next year" - how could you refuse?

    And then, how much do you value this kind of anti-doping devotion? In my opinion, it is to be filed under "talk is cheap" and serious sports fans might just as well disregard it. It is worthless, but in a not-positive, not-negative either neutral way. It is just not what to look for when you scrutinize an athlete's attitude towards doping.
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #94 on: February 04, 2018, 14:32 »
    Cross-Country Skiing: Medalists under suspicion of manipulation http://www.sportschau.de/doping/skilanglauf-manipulationsverdacht-englisch-100.html via @sportschau
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #95 on: February 04, 2018, 22:47 »
    So there was doping from 2000-2010?  :-x



    He may not be as famous as Lance Armstrong outside of countries that are manic about x-c skiing :)

    Anyway, I am getting a bit tired by the unspecific accusations thrown around about things that happened quite a while ago. I also think that the cloud of accusations at someone from somewhere in some event will cast a shadow also over athletes that they don't have any data for.  The unspecific accusations hit honest competitors and cheaters with the same force, and that is not fair.

    There are reasons to believe that most endurance sports have a doping problem, we knew that. I think there is even a general consensus as to how it was typically done  in that decade. The one XC skiier everyone remembers was perhaps the most rampant doper ever seen at the olympics. Several others have been caught and systematic doping has taken place on some teams at times (there are both convictions and reasonable evidence to suggest this).  So, where's the news in this really? 

    Someone leaked a database that mostly confirms what we thought might have been the problem. 






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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #96 on: February 05, 2018, 05:34 »
    https://twitter.com/JeuneGuillou/status/960066229368172544?ref_src=twcamp%5Eshare%7Ctwsrc%5Em5%7Ctwgr%5Eemail%7Ctwcon%5E7046%7Ctwterm%5E3

    Take away the 51 Russians and looks pretty even spread. Don't worry T names will find a way ouy
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #97 on: February 05, 2018, 09:04 »
    So there was doping from 2000-2010?  :-x
    Who would have known!? :lol



    He may not be as famous as Lance Armstrong outside of countries that are manic about x-c skiing :)
    It's the famous Spanish[1] cross-country skier Johann Mühlegg! :D
    Strangely enough, once he was Spanish, he went on to winning the World Cup in 1999/2000 and three Olympic gold medals in 2002 - that were later taken off him when he tested positive for EPO after the final race of the 2002 Olympics.

    Anyway, I am getting a bit tired by the unspecific accusations thrown around about things that happened quite a while ago. I also think that the cloud of accusations at someone from somewhere in some event will cast a shadow also over athletes that they don't have any data for.  The unspecific accusations hit honest competitors and cheaters with the same force, and that is not fair.
    I agree.
    Hajo Seppelt is an excellent investigative journalist, but he very much acts from a basis of "they all dope, so sweeping accusations are the way to go" - a bit like "kill them all and let God sort them out".
    He's been in this 'business' for so long that, for him, the sport holds no value anymore; all he cares about is convicting dopers. And that's not the greatest state of mind to have sport[2] make progress in the anti-doping fight. He doesn't care about that at all, only about exposing the current (honestly often quite insufficient) state of it.
     1. yes, Spanish; he got Spanish citizenship etc. after he was thrown off the German cross-country team for good in 1998
     2. yes, sport in general - Seppelt is very indiscriminate in his investigations
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    t-72

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #98 on: February 11, 2018, 21:15 »
    Following the "Mapei sweep" of the podium on men's 30 km XC skiing (a "russia sweep" is probably more correct for XC skiing, remembering the 50 km podium from Sotchi)  I read quite a few remarks about medicine use/doping in Norwegian cross country skiing. There were quite a few comments from twitter accounts about similarities between team Sky and the Norwegian cross country team. I would be the first to admit there are similarities, in deed I have sometimes pointed to it in discussions here on velorooms.

    However, there are a few important differences too. Both teams have athletes that suffer from exercise induced asthma (i wouldn't be surprised if many other teams have that too). While Team Sky willingly admits this after it is noticed by testing and test results are subsequently leaked or by eager audience noticing inhaler use, and sometimes goes to great lengths to obscure which medications are used by whom and how much (the world finds out afterwards), the Norwegian olympic delegation publicly declares before the games, in the national press, what they are bringing.

    You may have read this is in the press (if your news source passes the RT version of this, there has been a doping bust, as the Norway team "have been caught with 6000 doses of asthma medicine". Truth is, the Norwegian team declared it. Note that this is for the entire delegation, with 109 athletes in many disciplines, not just for XC skiing.

    6000 doses sounds a lot but according to a mate of mine with asthma it is equivalent to some 4-5 athletes on medication for the duration of the games. Not more. Norway has about 25 athletes suffering from exercise induced asthma, but these are only the team's medicines, the athletes will also bring their own, that should make up for what's missing.
     
    I don't have a medical degree and I have 99 problems but asthma ain't one, so I leave the complete list here for others to read with more knowledge. However, Kenacort is what catches the eye of this layman, and Norwegian press (TV2's very good cycling reporter Magnus Aarre)  have already been interviewing Michael Rasmussen about the effects of Kenacort. To which Rasmussen added Celeston.

    After the discussions on Bradley Wiggin's TUE and kenacort use, I can't see why this is on the list at all - someone with so serious problems that performance-enhancing kenacort is needed should not be racing, period. I can see the medically responsible suggesting to bring the substance as they are responsible for treating what comes up, but I can't see the responsible leader at higher level that checks the lists and tells the medically responsible to remove kenacort as the use of that substance is associated with a reputation loss so steep they'll all be out of work before easter. Even in Norway.

    Final comment: I am not 100% sure but I don't think Simon Hegstad Krüger is one of the athletes that have exercise-induced asthma. Sundby (the silver medallist) of course is, he had a ban for illegal salbutamol use previously and will always be the focus of attention in these debates (along with Marit Bjørgen). Arguably, Sundby has been the strongest SC skier of the past few years, but he lacks the explosive finish that often wins championships (which Petter Nordthug has).

    (On a good day I might find the time to translate all of it but I already wasted to much time now :)  guess you can make sense of it as it is mostly latin and a few not to strange words in Norwegian)

    • Imodium 2mg (mage) – 20 pakker (16 tabletter i hver)
    • Nexium 40 mg (mage) – 6 pakker (28 tabletter i hver)
    • Apocillin 660 mg (antibiotika) – 6 pakker (40 tabletter i hver)
    • Doxylin 100 mg (antibiotika) – 4 pakker (15 tabletter i hver)
    • Azitromax 500 mg (antibiotika) – 4 pakker (30 tabletter i hver)
    • Selexid 400 mg (antibiotika) – 4 pakker (20 tabletter i hver)
    • Trimetoprim 300 mg (antibiotika) – 4 pakker (7 tabletter i hver)
    • Klorhexidin 1mg/ml (antibakteriell rensevæske) – 10 flasker (250 ml i hver)
    • Diflucan 100 mg (mot soppinfeksjoner i underlivet) – 2 pakker (28 tabletter i hver)
    • Zovirax 200 mg (mot herpesmunnsår) – 2 pakker (25 tabletter i hver)
    • Zovirax 800 mg (mot herpesmunnsår) – 3 pakker (36 tabletter i hver)
    • Voltaren 50 mg (mot betennelser og smerter i muskler og ledd) – 4 pakker (100 tabletter i hver)
    • Naproxen 500 mg (betennelsesdempende/smertestillende) – 6 pakker (50 tabletter i hver)
    • Arcoxia 120 mg (smertestillende ved revmatiske sykdommer) – 4 pakker (7 tabletter i hver)
    • Ibumetin 5% (smertestillende krem) – 20 tuber (50 g i hver)
    • Zyloric 300 mg (mot urinsyregikt og ved steindannelse i nyrer og urinveier) – 1 pakke (100 tabletter i hver)
    • Paracet 500 mg (smertestillende) – 6 pakker (20 tabletter i hver)
    • Pinex forte 500/30 mg (smertestillende) – 4 pakker (20 tabletter i hver)
    • Stilnoct 10 mg (innsovningstabletter) – 6 pakker (30 tabletter i hver)
    • Xylocain-adrenalin 10 mg/ml (lokalbedøvelse) – 4 pakker injeksjonsvæske (5 flasker a 20 ml pr pakke?)
    • Xylocain 10 mg/ml (lokalbedøvelse) – 4 pakker injeksjonsvæske (5 flasker a 20 ml pr pakke?)
    • Marcain 5 mg/ml (langtidsvirkende lokalbedøvelse) – 20 flasker injeksjonsvæske (20 ml pr flaske)
    • Lederspan (20 mg/ml) (betennelsesdempende kortison) – krever medisinsk fritak – 20 flakser injeksjonsvæske (1 ml pr flaske)
    • Symbicort 160 mcg/4,5 mcg/d (mot astmasymptomer og kols) – krever medisinsk fritak – 15 inhalatorer (120 doser pr inhalator)
    • Atrovent 20 mcg/d (åpner luftveiene) – 6 inhalatorer (200 doser pr inhalator)
    • Atrovent 0,25 mcg/d (åpner luftveiene) – kun for forstøver – 6 inhalasjonsvæsker (60 doser pr)
    • Alvesco 160 mcg/d (mot astmasymptomer) – 10 inhalatorer (120 doser pr inhalator)
    • Ventoline 0,2 mg/d (åpner luftveiene) – krever medisinsk fritak – 6 inhalatorer (60 doser pr inhalator)
    • Aerius 5 mg (allergimedisin) – 2 pakker (90 tabletter i hver)
    • Natriumklorid (sterilt saltvann) – 20 pakker (10 flasker a 20 ml pr pakke)
    • Celeston Chronodose 6mg/ml (lindrer betennelsesreaksjoner i muskler og ledd, ved allergiske sykdommer slik som astma, høysnue og ved reaksjoner forårsaket av legemidler, samt ved insektbitt) – krever medisinsk fritak – 4 pakker (5 flasker a 1 ml injeksjonsvæske pr pakke)
    • Kenacort-T 40 mg/ml (injeksjonsmiddel til muskler og ledd mot allergiske sykdommer og betennelse) – krever medisinsk fritak – 10 flasker a 1 ml injeksjonsvæske
    • Rhinox 0,3 mg/ml (nesedråper/nesespray) – 6 flasker nesespray
    • Pulmicort 0,25 mg/ml (mot astma) – kun for forstøverapparat – 6 pakker (20 flasker a 2 ml pr pakke)
    • Airomir 0.1 mg/d (utvider luftveiene) – krever medisinsk fritak – 6 inhalatorer (200 doser pr pakke)
    • Spersallerg (øyedråper) – 2 pakker (20 doser pr pakke)
    • Otrivin 1mg/ml (nesespray) – 40 flasker (10 ml pr flaske)
    • Miwana 0,9% (nesespray) – 20 flasker (30 ml pr flaske)
    • Dymista (nesespray mot allergi) – 4 flasker (120 doser pr pakke)
    • Rinexin 50 mg (mot snue og tett nese) – 4 pakker (30 tabletter i hver)
    • Adrenalin 1 mg/ml – forbudt – 1 pakke (10 ampuller injeksjonsvæske pr pakke)
    • EpiPen 300 mcg – forbudt – 4 pakker
    • Apolar 0,1% (salve mot eksem og allergi) – 10 tuber (15 g pr tube)
    • Brulidine 0.15% (salve mot eksem og sår) – 10 tuber (25 mg pr tube)
    • Kloramfenikol 5mg/ml (øyendråper) – 10 flasker (10 ml pr flaske)
    • Vectatone 1% (salve mot munnsår) – 10 tuber (2 g pr tube)
    • Fucidin 2% (salve mot hudsykdommer som er infiserte med gule stafylokokker) – 6 tuber (15 g pr tube)
    • Kloramfenikol 110mg/g (Øyensalve) – 6 tuber (5 g pr tube)
    • Elocon 0,1% (salve mot psoriasis og eksem) – 4 tuber (30 g pr tube)
    • Zovirax 2% (salve mot munnsår) – 10 tuber (5 g pr tube)
    • Lamisil 1% (mot soppinfeksjoner i huden) – 4 tuber (15 g pr tube)
    • Daktacort 20 mg/g (mot kløe og betennelser) – 6 tuber (30 g pr tube)

    I question some of the content, but I applaud the openness!

    Some sources:
    https://www.nrk.no/sport/her-er-norges-medisinlager-i-ol-byen-1.13885993
    https://www.tv2.no/sport/9669801/
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #99 on: January 17, 2019, 17:56 »
    https://twitter.com/hajoseppelt/status/1085957778986987520

    nothing too spectacular (for everyone familiar with cycling at least - no surprise that it works the same in any other endurance sport) but still interesting to watch
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #100 on: January 17, 2019, 22:43 »
    There are two young Norwegian female xc skiers that have received human growth hormone treatments for lack of growth. According to national media, one of them was 137 cm when the treatment was started (no info about the other). They have all the therapeutic use excemptions they should have, but nevertheless they have been given a very hard time by the x-c skiing community for it, now that they actually are normal height girls (still small, but not extremely small), performing very well in the sport. There is a chance that the growth hormone treatment received a few years ago has impacted their ability to perform now? 

    There is a very famous athlete well known to have received growth hormone treatment as a kid, but isn't the idea that they get the treatment to get 'back to normal' and then what happens from there is, exactly that: - normal high performance? I struggle to see the effect of the therapy as performance enhancing 1-2 years after it has been concluded, especially taking into account that so young people experience rapid changes in hormone levels anyway.

    I think there are good reasons outside of sport for receiving growth hormone treatment when there isn't a normal growth. Life (especially in 12-17 age bracket) is not just about sport, and it can be a bit damaging to your social relations and self esteem and maybe even psycho-social health to have the height and weight of an 11 year old when you are 15( less than 3% of 12 year olds are lower than 137 cm according to  this growth chart. That's not Norwegian data, yet still, it is good enough for this forum to understand that she was really small.

    If the negative feedback that these girls have received is allowed to set a presedence, to the degree that girls (or boys) that probably should receive this treatment don't dare to get it, I think it is sad.
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #101 on: January 18, 2019, 06:52 »
    There is a chance that the growth hormone treatment received a few years ago has impacted their ability to perform now?

    I don't think there really exists a study about that. The most "long-term" one I could find says "Sprint capacity increased significantly with growth hormone treatment. [...] These differences were no longer present 6 weeks after participants discontinued the study treatments."

    https://de.scribd.com/document/249116426/Human-Growth-Horm-Clinical-Testing

    You obviously could argue that gaining height alone was benificial for the sporting abilities, but this story sounds like a bit of an overreaction to me.

    If HGH should be used on kids at all is a different topic though.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #102 on: January 18, 2019, 07:45 »
    but isn't the idea that they get the treatment to get 'back to normal' and then what happens from there is, exactly that: - normal high performance? I struggle to see the effect of the therapy as performance enhancing 1-2 years after it has been concluded, especially taking into account that so young people experience rapid changes in hormone levels anyway.
    We'll probably never know for certain.

    It's similar with e.g. testosterone treatment for middle-aged men who also compete in masters cycling - they have lowered testosterone levels, and the medication brings them 'back to normal'. As long as they have a TUE, they aren't doping in the legal sense.
    I suppose it is then a matter of trust to believe they wouldn't 'over-medicate' to get a bigger effect than 'back to normal'.

    With HGHs for extremely small children, there is another matter to consider: That is, how these kids would fare, not just in sport, but in society as a whole, without that (medication-induced) growth spurt. And again, as long as they have the TUE paperwork in order, they are in the clear.

    The question of long-term effects remains. It is widely thought that other PEDs such as EPO do have long-term effects, even years after you stopped taking them - but it isn't conclusively proven. And even if it were, it would then have to be weighed up against the (physical and mental) well-being of a child ... where I believe the latter weighs more.
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #103 on: January 18, 2019, 08:48 »
    it would then have to be weighed up against the (physical and mental) well-being of a child ... where I believe the latter weighs more.

    I think more or more questions about this have come up over the past years though, both in terms of risk of health as well as in regards to the necessity of increasing height at all (apart from very, very small children).

    So in this case, there of course needs to be taken a look into the backgrounds, and who was the one who initiated it. If it were the coaches (instead of the parents, for example), I definitely see reasons to critizice is
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #104 on: January 18, 2019, 10:15 »
    Yeh if they are in the "system" then well-being is already an afterthought (doping aside). If the system was in any way involved in the decision that makes it a whole lot worse.

    (Morally there is no objection to this for anyone who desires it regardless of height, will leave the medical to the professionals)
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #105 on: January 20, 2019, 19:31 »
    https://twitter.com/hajoseppelt/status/1085957778986987520

    nothing too spectacular (for everyone familiar with cycling at least - no surprise that it works the same in any other endurance sport) but still interesting to watch

    Very intersting - thanks for posting.  Agree with you points.  It was there to see, those junior days as the youngsters are all talking to each other about what they are taking and then if it becomes normalised to take PEDs there is no going back.  That is the age when they need to be told - people do it.  Many do it.  Many of the stars you have looked up to do it.  And then analyse whether it is acceptable or not. 

    Sutton getting Millar to front up for the BC youngsters was a joke and a half.
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    Re: Doping in XC Skiing & Biathlon
    « Reply #106 on: January 26, 2019, 19:49 »
    https://twitter.com/hajoseppelt/status/1085957778986987520

    nothing too spectacular (for everyone familiar with cycling at least - no surprise that it works the same in any other endurance sport) but still interesting to watch

    https://oe1.orf.at/player/20190123/540447
    radio broadcast in german about doping in competitive sports with Johannes Dürr and Martin Prinz who wrote with him the book "Der Weg zurück. Eine Sporterzählung" (Comeback. A sport story).

    Available until next Wednesday 1 p.m.

    Quote
    Doping im Spitzensport
    Punkt eins

    Gibt es den sauberen Weg an die Spitze?
    Gäste: Johannes Dürr, Langläufer; Martin Prinz, Schriftsteller und Amateursportler.
    Moderation: Elisabeth Scharang.
    Anrufe kostenlos aus ganz Österreich unter 0800 22 69 79

    "Den Stempel ‚Doping' werde ich nie wieder los", sagt Johannes Dürr, österreichischer Langläufer und einstige Olympiahoffnung des ÖSV. Nach einer Dopingsperre und dem lebenslangen Ausschluss aus dem ÖSV will der Spitzensportler bei der kommenden Nordischen WM in Seefeld wieder an den Start - auf eigene Faust, ohne großen Mannschaftsstab und nach vier Jahren Aufarbeitung seines sportlichen und persönlichen Desasters.

    An seiner Seite stand während der letzten vier Jahre der Schriftsteller Martin Prinz. Die beiden trainierten miteinander, und sie haben in dem 350 Seiten starken Buch "Der Weg zurück. Eine Sporterzählung" die Geschichte des Hochleistungssportlers Johannes Dürr aufgerollt. Zu Gast bei Elisabeth Scharang erzählen die beiden, wie sie vor einem Jahr mit Hilfe von Crowdfunding ein unabhängiges Team auf die Beine gestellt haben, um Johannes Dürr zurück an die Weltspitze zu bringen, und wie er Doping heute sieht.

    "Unsere Hochleistungsgesellschaft giert nach Hochleistungssportlern", argumentiert der Schriftsteller Martin Prinz. "Die Sportler sollen mit unverfälschtem Körper ans Werk gehen. Die Körper von Hochleistungsathleten sind jedoch aufgrund des Trainings bereits in einer Weise entstellt, die von vornherein einer Fälschung gleichkommt. Beim Cirque du Soleil fragt sich kein Zuschauer, ob die Artisten in der Manege zur Regeneration bestimmte Mittel einnehmen. Der Sport muss aber mit diesem Dauerverdacht leben."

    Brauchen wir eine neue Ethik im Spitzensport? Sind Dopingfälle die Verfehlung Einzelner oder die Verantwortung eines Systems? Wie kann man einem Mißbrauch von Medikamenten und leistungssteigernden Substanzen begegnen? Härtere Strafen?
    Wenn Sie sich in der Sendung beteiligen möchten: Rufen Sie an unter 0800 22 69 79 - kostenlos aus ganz Österreich - oder schreiben Sie ein E-Mail an punkteins(at)orf.at.

    Musikinformationen
    Urheber/Urheberin: Dan Auerbach, Danger Mouse& Patrick Carney
    Titel: In Our Prime
    Ausführender/Ausführende: The Black Keys
    Länge: 03:04 min
    Label: Nonesuch Records

    Urheber/Urheberin: Daniel Johansson and Joakim Sveningsson
    Titel: Gold
    Ausführender/Ausführende: Friska Vilijor
    Länge: 03:26 min
    Label: Crying Bob Records

    Urheber/Urheberin: Vangelis
    Titel: Line Open
    Ausführender/Ausführende: Vangelis
    Länge: 02:24 min
    Label: Warner Music UK Ltd

    Urheber/Urheberin: Elisabeth Scharang
    Titel: Moderation
    Länge: 44:45 min

    Johannes Dürr, Martin Prinz: Der Weg zurück. Eine Sporterzählung. Insel, 2019.
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