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KeithJamesMc

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They deserve it - The Christina Watches thread
« on: February 07, 2014, 12:15 »
An interview with their new signing - Jonny Bellis

http://www.tourofbritain.co.uk/news/8994.php#.UvTMRPnlZ8E

- he seems like a real fighter
- Christina Watches going for a Tour of Britain invite
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  • LukasCPH

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    - Christina Watches going for a Tour of Britain invite
    Won't happen.
    2.HC can only invite Continental teams of the same country, CWK is registered in Denmark.
    Sorry Jonny, seems Hembo has promised more than he can deliver. Again.
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  • Cyclingnews Women's Pro Cycling Correspondent
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    Views presented are my own. RIP Keith & Sean

    LukasCPH

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    As you know, the Istrian Spring Trophy is underway this week.
    It used to be the first race of the season for the Christina Watches team in its various guises, but this year #cwk is notably absent. Why?
    The team says that it has been asked to pay start money, see this article (in Danish).

    Another Danish team #cult is in Croatia and getting good results. Did they pay the money asked for? Were they even asked to, or did the IST organisers only ask some teams to pay for their participation?
    Interesting questions - that probably won't ever get answered.

    I've noticed that #cwk don't participate in races more than once or twice in general. Tour of Serbia, Tour du Maroc, the Algerian races, Brixia Tour ... whatever is the reason for that?
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    As you know, the Istrian Spring Trophy is underway this week.
    It used to be the first race of the season for the Christina Watches team in its various guises, but this year #cwk is notably absent. Why?
    The team says that it has been asked to pay start money, see this article (in Danish).

    Another Danish team #cult is in Croatia and getting good results. Did they pay the money asked for? Were they even asked to, or did the IST organisers only ask some teams to pay for their participation?
    Interesting questions - that probably won't ever get answered.

    I've noticed that #cwk don't participate in races more than once or twice in general. Tour of Serbia, Tour du Maroc, the Algerian races, Brixia Tour ... whatever is the reason for that?

    I would pretty much say it is certainly the case that Team Cult did not pay, why? - why would they? I mean the race has zero value for them, it is only used to make their riders better for all they care they could ride around a barn outside of Herning with no spectators and it would be the same as winning this race, assuming that their was no price money. Their sponsors have no interest in the area, and the only reward possible is if they win maybe they get a short clip on danish TV. However anybody can get on danish TV, I could probably be on the 7 o'clock if I wanted to tonight. I mean if that is all they wanted they could just do like Hembo and call them out, I mean Hembo probably get more PR out of this than had he won the race, I mean I had to google Kema to find out what they did and if they had an interest there. But really I think it is about the organizers having a tough time making ends meet, they ask for money from the teams they think might actually pay and just guessed wrong on CWK. I mean trust me Hembo can say they would never pay all he want, but anybody knows that if it was Post Danmark Rundt he would gladly have paid to start.
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  • Ram

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    Christina Watches is the team you need, not the team you want.

    Cult, it's an opportunity for them to showcase their riders' talents on an international arena. That matters.

    Who knows if there was money involved for them.
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    Christina Watches is the team you need, not the team you want.

    Cult, it's an opportunity for them to showcase their riders' talents on an international arena. That matters.

    Who knows if there was money involved for them.

    Cult could really care less if they raced or not, their sponsor have zero interest in the area, they could really just take any other small international race and it would be the same to them. I mean Croatia, Germany, Spain, it is all the same when you only sell your product in Denmark. Also the "stars" at Cult are mostly young so they race internationally with U23 Denmark team anyway, and get a lot of results there, I mean for Cult it could not matter less if they raced or not, why then would you pay? You could just sign up for another race and avoid this problem. I mean I understand why they do the race, but there is so many 2.2 races that it only makes sense to pay if their sponsor wanted the race. Cult could not care less, I mean if they had to pick between them riding the Istrian Spring Trophy and them going around this weekend at night in Herning selling Cult products for promotion. I am leaning towards saying that they would be in Herning.
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  • Ram

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    The market where the race takes place may not matter as such for the sponsor, but for sponsoring a team only known to develop young riders (by definition a niche market), it's a big shot in the arm for credibility of the team and sponsorship of it to win international races. The value of the product, the team and riders in this case, certainly improves if they win more such and land big ticket contracts.

    As for entry money, as I said, I don't know. Could just be the standard..... Either way, it's not like CWO would've made or broken the race.
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    it's a big shot in the arm for credibility of the team and sponsorship of it to win international races. The value of the product, the team and riders in this case, certainly improves if they win more such and land big ticket contracts.

    They have won better wins in the past, Magnus Cort's stellar performance in his home tour last year comes to mind. I agree a win might increase the value of a rider and thus the team, however why would they care if a rider increase in value, I mean it is not like soccer where you can then get a higher transfer fee, Cort is scheduled to leave at the end of the year regardless. And the increased value only matters if they could sell a rider, there is only one year contracts so they won't make anything from it. I mean apart from picking up ranking points that they would want they really could care less, and they could race this race or another it wouldn't matter they could still get the same amount of point assuming same result. There must be many 2.2's where they would have about the same chance as this race. I am not sure if they paid or not, but I am certain that it would be poor judgement to do so.

    No continental team can ever really make or break a race, unless it is one like Tabriz of cause.
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  • Ram

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    They have won better wins in the past, Magnus Cort's stellar performance in his home tour last year comes to mind. I agree a win might increase the value of a rider and thus the team, however why would they care if a rider increase in value, I mean it is not like soccer where you can then get a higher transfer fee, Cort is scheduled to leave at the end of the year regardless. And the increased value only matters if they could sell a rider, there is only one year contracts so they won't make anything from it. I mean apart from picking up ranking points that they would want they really could care less, and they could race this race or another it wouldn't matter they could still get the same amount of point assuming same result. There must be many 2.2's where they would have about the same chance as this race. I am not sure if they paid or not, but I am certain that it would be poor judgement to do so.
    A team whose aim is producing talented riders, not producing them... it's not really worth the money. Christina Watches could be economical with the truth. Is it a standard entry fee? Something else? But is it bad judgement to send riders to compete against Gourmetfein and Tirol like teams? I say definitely not.

    Quote
    No continental team can ever really make or break a race, unless it is one like Tabriz of cause.
    Didn't you hear of CWO in China/Serbia and Nippo in Japan? Tabriz isn't an exception. They get way too much attention compared to others in Asia or Europe or the Americas or Africa.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Enrico Rossi's custom bike paintjob:
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    Maybe jumping the gun a bit with the avatar change, but hoping Santa will be under contract come 2015.  :)
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    Christina Watches Kuma riders will boycott the Danish National team for Post Danmark Rundt following their non-selection for the same race. DCU very unhappy.

    http://sporten.tv2.dk/2014-07-02-christina-watches-boykotter-landshold

    http://sporten.tv2.dk/2014-07-02-cykel-landstr%C3%A6ner-om-boykot-det-er-chikane
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  • DB-Coop

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    This whole conflicts go back several years, and it is a conflict between Michael Rasmussen and Jesper Worre (Former DCU boss, and current boss of Post Danmark Rundt)

    How it started, well Michael wanted to ride the World Championship but Worre demanded that he should ride PDR to be selected, Michael did this some years, later on Michael tried to move his license but yet again Worre explained if he did so he could not be selected. The first of these two "rules" make no sense as Worre is mixing up his two roles, the second makes little sense as many other Danish riders are indeed selected despite having a foreign licence. Either way it ended up going really bad when during the 2007 Tour de France Worre informed the world about Rasmussen's whereabouts, and how many he had received from DCU and WADA and that these were not counted together but had they been they would constitute a ban. This is a violation of what Worre is allowed to release to the public and upon it being a wonder that he didn't get fired (DCU is as corrupt as the UCI is/was) it is also strange he wasn't taken to court. Either way this resulted in Rasmussen getting thrown out of the Tour, where after a suicidal Rasmussen missed another control (do to getting thrown out) forcing a ban onto him. When Rasmussen returned from his ban Riis wanted to sign him, the idea being Rasmussen to dom for Contador. However Worre forced that decision not to happen as well, again misusing his role as authority to make Rasmussen stay out of cycling. Rasmussen was picked up by Christina Watches, more or less founded off the public outcry that it was bad that Rasmussen had no team. In 2013 CWO was not selected for the race, despite being the best rated conti team in Denmark (pr. CQ) and having a top 10 finisher from 2012 (Stefan Schumacher) something which none other Danish conti team could boast. Should be said that one could argue Cult to be better but the three other selected teams, no way. Granted CWO had fewer danish riders but Concordia had a lot of Swedish riders too. This year all other conti teams have been selected and as a result Christina Watches Kuma ave decided not to let their riders join the national team for the race. Here DCU again arrogantly claim that they have the right to demand the riders (I can't see they can demand the riders if they race in Portugal that is a team choice as far as I know) Either way a big mess.
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  • LukasCPH

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    This whole conflicts go back several years, and it is a conflict between Michael Rasmussen and Jesper Worre (Former DCU boss, and current boss of Post Danmark Rundt)
    It started as a conflict between MR and Worre. How much of it is still down to that, and how much of it is now due to a "who can be the biggest moron" competition between Worre and Hembo, I don't know.

    This year all other conti teams have been selected and as a result Christina Watches Kuma ave decided not to let their riders join the national team for the race. Here DCU again arrogantly claim that they have the right to demand the riders (I can't see they can demand the riders if they race in Portugal that is a team choice as far as I know) Either way a big mess.
    Not entirely true:
    Designa-Knudsgaard weren't selected either. And DCU indeed have the right to demand riders for the national team, it's an agreement between the federation and the Danish Conti teams.

    But yes, it is a big mess. And I really hope we won't continue to have this mess next year, one way or the other.
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  • DB-Coop

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    It started as a conflict between MR and Worre. How much of it is still down to that, and how much of it is now due to a "who can be the biggest moron" competition between Worre and Hembo, I don't know.

    I Think it is very much just a case of, Hembo being identified as the enemy by Worre, and Hembo trying to fight it. To be honest I think Hembo does a pretty good job at what he does, people are talking about the team, and yes while a lot of people think Hembo is a jerk - he wins them a lot of support as well. The only thing so far where he has done anything to pee me off is trying to sign Horner (Probably didn't even really try though/No way he would have signed)

    Not entirely true:
    Designa-Knudsgaard weren't selected either. And DCU indeed have the right to demand riders for the national team, it's an agreement between the federation and the Danish Conti teams.

    True, forgot about them somewhere between last year and now, haven't heard any news about them, so most have assumed they had folded as well. DCU having that right makes no sense, clearly they should be free to race the Team Calendar first and can then join if they are free. Also have to laugh a bit Hembo picking a bunch of danish riders to Volta a Portugal just to stick it to Worre. Either way I really hope CWK win Portugal overall just to stick it to DCU.

    But yes, it is a big mess. And I really hope we won't continue to have this mess next year, one way or the other.

    Unless DCU makes some serious changes or CWK folds, which could be the outcome of this, I don't see too much changed.

    The comments by Jesper Johannesen on this (http://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/kommentar_hvorfor_kun_tre_hold/) I thought were spot on. Why only three teams when last year they took the option for a fourth and the teams are down meaning better squads this year. While I can agree that this is strange and that all 5 teams really should be invited there is more. This is off the race face book page.

    Here the organizer clarify that the teams are selected by criterias picked at the beginning of the season. This is true, however the criteria's are not weighted and you could come up with any conclusion and say it was because of these criterias. The second issue I have is that this is very easy to refer to from PDR's side because they made the criterias, so they could simply twist them to favor the teams they want, which they have -

    The following races are evaluated on
    26. april Post Cup i Herning, 1. afd.

      2. maj Skiveløbet, UCI cat 1.2

      3. maj Himmerland Rundt, UCI cat 1.2

      4. maj Destination Thy, UCI cat 1.2

    25. maj Post Cup på Bornholm, 2. afd.

    30. maj U 23 DM enkeltstart, Helsingør

      1. juni U 23 DM linjeløb, København

    21. juni DM holdløb i Horsens

    22. juni Post Cup i Greve, 3. afd.

    26. juni DM enkeltstart i Faaborg

    29. juni DM linjeløb i Faaborg

    On top of that there is an extra clause stating that they put large value on the teams development of riders.

    Basically the issue here is that CWK has more non Danish riders while most their Danish riders are very young. This is a result of nobody wanting to sign with the team last year, largely do to MR's book, maybe also do to the above mentioned conflict, who knows? Either way we have 3 races that count where CWO can't enter its leaders also another issue is that all these races are one day races. So a guy that can do well in GC in PDR may not do well here.

    Lastly it is interesting to see that they have selected Novo Nordisk to ride the race, I find it hard to see why they are more qualified than any of the 5 conti teams, they have worse riders than at least 4 of the teams. They rank lower than CWK in Europe and their best man in America ranks below CWK's best man. A lot of people have mentioned that CWK shouldn't get in just because they have a Danish licence - well Novo got in just by a Danish sponsor (And a sponsorship of the race, how is that for corruption?) Honestly I don't see how that work because it doesn't. You refuse to invite one team on sporting reasons yet you invite a novelty team that has little to no chance of putting it's mark on the race.

    I wonder if anybody in their right mind actually think Rival and Novo will have more impact on the race than CWK would have had. Novo will likely have none and Rival will surely win the hill competition. They don't have a rider that can win a stage or do well overall imo. Meanwhile Blue Water and Cult should be fun to watch. Quaade has to be favorite on the ITT and Cort could very well win some stages too.
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  • DB-Coop

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    What is that Santa is bringing Claus this Christmas?
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  • DB-Coop

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    Sometimes you read a headline that is just perfect. Shout out to BT for this one  :cool

    'Mystery Sounding Firing of Great Talent on the Chicken's Team'

    http://www.bt.dk/cykling/mystik-om-fyring-af-stortalent-paa-kyllingens-cykelhold (Danish)
    http://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/asbjoern_kragh_fyret_hos_christina_watches/ (Danish)

    Either way the circus continues and Asbjørn Kragh has now been fired/let go neither part want to comment on it, also if he did get fired he does not seem too upset. Apparently there is speculation about it being over the PDR situation, but to be honest I doubt that is true, long time ago now, more likely to be race program leading into worlds perhaps. Still interesting that neither of the two parts seem to be willing to let out steam publicly, maybe because of what happened last time, great for Asbjørn and his future career.

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  • ciranda

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    I don't know and don't care (except that it's a good thing for the rider (who is really talented btw)) but the team are doing races in China right now. Maybe they wanted him there and he refused to go because it would ruin his preparation for the World's and then management freaked out/saw a way to save money.
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    I don't know and don't care (except that it's a good thing for the rider (who is really talented btw)) but the team are doing races in China right now. Maybe they wanted him there and he refused to go because it would ruin his preparation for the World's and then management freaked out/saw a way to save money.

    Very talented agree, the whole U23 worlds selection has a lot of promise to them.

    I very much see that as a likelier cause than the PDR thing, however DCU seems to agree with him in the case, so CWK must have done some flipping up themselves as well, also the economics, I have that same feeling that the CWK team is having trouble making the ends meet, I would not be totally shocked to see them close operation.
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  • just some guy

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    *dk media reporting team will close/finish end of tbe season

    Sponsors buying a handball team
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    LukasCPH

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    *dk media reporting team will close/finish end of tbe season
    Wouldn't surprise me at all. They've tried to get invited to the Tour of Denmark, and haven't succeeded for years now, no matter what they did.
    Team spirit isn't always the best, all kinds of stories come out every year (especially this year - Zaballa positive, Gavazzi cocaine, Rossi fist-fight, Kamp-Hembo fall-out, Kragh firing) ...
    Not really a success story in the sporting sense.
    Looking at the sponsorship value, everyone in Denmark - and everyone interested in cycling - now knows that Christina sells (overpriced) watches. But this was never a 'normal' sponsorship anyway, instead I viewed it as mix of a Lampre/BMC/Tinkoff type sugardaddy sponsorship and a personal vanity act - first for Christina, but later, and very much more so, for Claus.

    Sponsors buying a handball team
    Bit more surprised at this, but whatever.
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  • DB-Coop

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    *dk media reporting team will close/finish end of tbe season

    Sponsors buying a handball team

    From what I've read I would not be shocked if they closed, but I think they might well remain. It appears from what I've read that it is either or between the two teams, however I also read that CW doesn't want to buy FCM Womens Handball unless they can rename it to Christina Watches Handball, this is not currently allowed. Also the deficit for FCM handball is about 1 million dkk per year, this is post sponsors, so the business model seems far from solid. Hembo also has stated that they will wait until later to sign contract free riders to drive the price down. Basically I think this means that we will see 8 non danish riders by the deadline (1st November[1]) And they will then fill out the squad in January from riders nobody else signed. I guess we will see in a month if it is to happen or not, the key point is I can't see them being any good, Riwal, Trefor Blue Water and Coloquick will surely have all the best talents by the time CW starts to sign riders.
     1. Also the date Santa is free to sign :D
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  • LukasCPH

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    Hembo also has stated that they will wait until later to sign contract free riders to drive the price down.
    Hmm, interesting. Tells you all you need to know about CWK's 'business model' really.

    Basically I think this means that we will see 8 non danish riders by the deadline (1st November[1]) And they will then fill out the squad in January from riders nobody else signed.
     1. Also the date Santa is free to sign :D
    The 'problem' is that a Danish-registered Conti team will have to have a (relative) majority of Danish riders. A good example of 'managing' that is #differdange Differdange-Losch: They always have a bunch of foreigners, but never more than 2-3 from one country, and then they have 3-4 Luxembourgers.

    So if #cwk sign e.g. *de Schumi, *de Forke, *es Dominguez, *uk Tanner, *it Rossi, they will have to have a minimum of three Danes (and of course the minimum of 8 riders in total). *dk Jimmi S, *dk Garby and one other could fill that quota.
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  • just some guy

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    LukasCPH

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    Feltet.dk: Christina Watches lukker og slukker (in Danish)
    Somewhat less of a PR exercise than Ekstra Bladet, who always were very chummy with #cwk CWK & Hembo.
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  • DB-Coop

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    I suppose this means no Santa to Claus, damn it and with just 2 days left of his ban.

    Feltet.dk: Christina Watches lukker og slukker (in Danish)
    Somewhat less of a PR exercise than Ekstra Bladet, who always were very chummy with #cwk CWK & Hembo.

    Think in truth the main difference is that EB write theirs in the way they put a lot of focus on the scandals, whereas Feltet basically states the same, but includes a historical summary of the team and such early on, I like The Feltet article better, but if I cared less about cycling I think the other would be more likely to make me click it.

    In truth I am a bit surprised he didn't go harder after DCU, I mean now he doesn't have to save him self in any way, he doesn't have to work with them again, had I been in Hembo or MR's shoes I would probably have had no time to spare telling the world about DCU's incompetence.
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  • LukasCPH

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    EB write theirs in the way they put a lot of focus on the scandals; if I cared less about cycling I think the other would be more likely to make me click it.
    You have summed up the entire point of Ekstra Bladet. ;)

    Apart from being a yellow paper, they were always close to Christina Watches. Got invited to the now-infamous Post Cup in Køge, accompanied the team on trips to faraway races (paid for by the team who got start money from the organisers)
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  • LukasCPH

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    Bo Hamburger: We have to look at ourselves, too (in Danish)

    Now former #cwk DS Bo Hamburger has some considered opinions about the team and its strife with DCU.

    Bonde: CWK has lost its basis of existence (in Danish)

    *dk national coach Lars Bonde hits the nail on the head: :lol
    Quote
    "[after Michael Rasmussen's confession and deal with ADD] the team had no basis of existence anymore, other than that Claus Hembo found it entertaining to go around and be the owner of a cycling team"
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  • DB-Coop

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    Guess I was bound to (again) comment on this topic sooner or later. Sorry for the rant, and sorry to about maybe sliding into "another topic" but between here, another section and the venting thread it was just too hard to pick.

    More or less I think I agree with Brian Holm's comments in regards to Hembo, I think we can say for sure that PR wise Hembo has been very successful, running a cycling team not so much. I don't really like the job Hamburger has been doing for them, that whole interview where he was talking about Kamp while not saying his name, and still making it obvious that it was him he was talking with. However I do think that Hembo is correct in his analogy, DCU absolutely killed this team. For the danish conti teams PDR is the bread and butter, how many teams have we seen shut down/change sponsor when they fail to make it to the race over the years? Basically DCU are in a crazy position all together, they refuse teams entry into PDR based on their own criteria which I already criticized above. On the other hand they are in a position to guide riders in terms of what team to sign for. Which again is all important for how well the teams does. Basically with a system like that DCU will 100% be able to shut down any team that it wishes too. Also I think that Worre and other members of the DCU's grudge towards the team has been well documented. Had DCU been a governmental institution there would be no doubt that Worre and hi lackeys would be in a position where they, of cause, would be unable to decide the teams on a fair basis or to make a decision that could not be questioned, this I think has quite clearly been shown to be the case.

    As far as this years selection goes it is interesting that they select 3 teams instead of 4 as the year before when there are fewer teams, surely fewer teams must mean the teams are better. Also the final race was 2 teams short of the number of teams they wanted in, why not give the conti teams a chance when nobody in the WT clearly wanted to go to the race. Jesper Johannesen described it well here http://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/kommentar_hvorfor_kun_tre_hold/ I can only take that to mean that it was indeed the case that they did not want CWK in the race. Maybe 4 teams next year? Most people would agree that Coloquick is the weakest of the 4 danish conti teams next season, I will bet anyone that they get picked for PDR.

    I think DCU needs a cleanup, even the statements they make from time to time are stupid. Anybody remember that statement about them being "worried about the amount of former cheaters within CWO"? Something that is first of all a bit hard to really believe is something that the DCU would be worried about since Gullberg is convicted for forging signatures in a prior position and Worre has a doping conviction. Seconly because I have never seen them do this in any other case. Have they ever warned about signing for a team run by a doper like Riis, and with as many doping links as Tinkoff-Saxo. There is probably a good 10-12 guys on there roster where I would if possible be fully happy with betting anything on them being dirty at some point or the other - I am closer to believing that Clinton actually didn't inhale then I am to believing Basso never re-infused. But is this a team danish talents are being recommended to go to, yes indeed. Basically I have no trust what so ever in DCU, probably less then I have in the UCI.

    The last thing then of cause is that I do not at all see what Worre is doing as head of PDR, a job he is mismanaging in all ways possible. The WT team turn up this year clearly shows that he is not making the race very noticeable in other places. Secondly he is lazy beyond belief when if comes to the planing of the race, he seems to just reuse the same old finishes over and over again. I mean every other year the stage finish in Aarhus is there, Vejle and Frederiksberg are the same every year. Odense is often in and it is always a sprint stage to Fruens Bøge. Change it up a bit for crying out loud. One might argue that it is because he is busy finding the teams that he doesn't have enough time to plan the route. But that is right too then, he doesn't really show up for the races that decides what conti teams goes anyway - http://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/kommentar_hvorfor_kun_tre_hold/


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  • L'arri

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    Cue CN's king of literary hyperbole Barry Ryan with that juicily ironic Shakespeare quote he has been saving for just the right occasion.

    Well, let me crush that coconut before CN's monkey gets to tap it:

    Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

    And it's the oldest story in cycling: national sporting authority gets exposed for the capricious junta it is. We've been popcorning this one for months thanks to the inside track from our very own Great Danes.

    It would make a great tale of truth and consequences were it not for the fact that nobody in this seems to have had clean hands.  :cool
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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