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DB-Coop

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The Perfect Race
« on: March 08, 2014, 11:33 »
Optimizing Current Races for Better Racing Tomorow

This is a thread to discuss route planning of races, stage races more than classics really, as most classics have good routes already. A lot of stage races, are directly boring to look at, Arctic Race of Norway comes to mind, I think Tour of Beijing may have had more spectators, and while some of the landscapes were pretty, a lot of it was just barren, and really reminded one that the landscapes were better and there were bigger crowds at the Tour des Fjords. Yet a lack of good use of the landscape both places, which lead to boring racing, that is what this thread is about, redoing a race to  optimize all the things an organizer has to play with route, jerseys, time bonuses, points for said jerseys.

The race I will take a go at making better is, the Tour of Denmark, Post Danmark Rundt. Feel free to come with any upgrades to races in places near you in this section as well.
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  • « Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 01:05 by DB-Coop »

    DB-Coop

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    My Version of Post Danmark Rundt, I would say this could be the route for 2015:

    Six stages over five days. Half stage and ITT on the same day. Post Rundt has been able to attract some good sprinters in the last years. Cavendish and Bos comes to mind, I want to keep it that way which means that the sprint classification shall be upgraded to be the second most prestigious classification. The Hill classification is mainly a price for the smaller teams. There shall not be a Team classification as this tend to screw up the race if anybody is riding for it. Most aggressive rider gets red numbers. Young rider jersey replaced with yellow numbers, jersey seems a bit much for best young rider in a 2.HC race. All Hill sprints give 1 point to the winner, if a draw occurs then the leader is the rider with the best combined placing on all the hill sprints. Meaning sprinting for hill sprints is always important as moving from 80-10 is more important than moving from 10-2. The price money shall be lower for this as it is really just a competition to create a few extra sprints on the route and give the Danish conti teams a jersey to compete for. There shall be no time bonuses, to compensate for this the ITT is shortened to not make it too decisive. The point jersey is given to the rider with the most points. Every day there is two chances to win points stage finishes give 50,20,14,6 and 2 points while point sprints and the ITT awards 25,10,7,3 and 1 point. The point sprints become much more decisive in the classification because of this and winning sprints, ITT and stages are valued heavily. Full TV coverage should be possible to produce, the market for the race would be there in Denmark, while only the last 70-100Km may be used abroad. An interesting sponsor to bring in could be visit Denmark as the route runs by many attractions of Denmark and having a 3 hour advertisement on Eurosport might be interesting for them. Danish TV2 airs a lot of cycling and would be my channel of choice to air the race on locally, that or the government TV DR. The awful Viasat that has commercial breaks within the last 10Km should of cause not get to air the race.  Also TV2 has it's own helicopter that could help produce pictures.

    As far as teams to bring to the race it seems from my perspective best that the riders on each team is reduced to 5 this is to make the race less predictable, making outside attack more likely to be winning moves. If 3 teams are left with 8 each then the move will never happen. If 5 leaders move and the other 3 teams with riders still in the GC has to close it down, interesting. Next question then of cause is what teams should be invited? the move to 5 riders per squad allows for more teams. Instead of the current 17, I will have 20 teams. This means there will be 100 riders in the peloton. Now who should be invited? Tinkoff-Saxo is a no-brainer, they have to get a spot with the many danish riders on their squad, and uncle Bjarne leading the team. There currently is five UCI Continental danish teams, currently three gets wild cards. I want to increase this to all five, if more teams come about it would be possible to have them in too. Apart from that it is mainly WT teams that are interesting. Teams there should be selected based on three criteria. 1) Interesting riders they offer the race 2) Danish riders and DS's on the team, or former riders for danish team 3) Scandinavian presence on team. As far as criteria 1 goes it is interesting with the route in mind. Stybar wold be among the most interesting. As far as selecting pro conti teams, it is pretty simple, teams picked are teams that ride hard, and are there for the finals too, like Topsport Vlaanderen.

    If this was a 2014 race these are the teams I would see:
    WT: #belkin #astana #bmc #europcar #opqs #lotto #tinkoff #katusha #garmin #sky #giant
    PC: #netappendura #iam #mtn #topsport
    CC: #cult #concordia  #cwk Tre For Blue Water & Team Designa Køkken-Knudsgaard

    Stage 1: Esbjerg - Tyborøn 177Km
    Stage 1 is probably best described by three words, Windy, Flat and 181. Bi-road 181 is a Danish road that runs north to south and stretches pretty much the length of the west coast of Jutland. The whole west coast is known for being windy but this route runs almost exclusively next to the ocean making it extra windy, also it should be noted that the typical wind direction is blowing west to east, meaning that there will be side wind on the whole stretch. This stage is all dependent on the wind. If it is raced in the few days a year when the wind doesn't blow it will be a boring flat sprint stage. However the amount of wind that is needed to break up the peloton would without a doubt be characterized as a very quiet day wind wise on the west coast. This stage should lead to echelons. It will not be a stage where Post Danmark Rundt can be won.  But it will be a stage where it can be lost. The Stage will more than likely narrow the contenders of overall victory down to a select group of 50 or less riders. The start will be in Esbjerg outside the train station, which historically help the town grow, Esbjerg is a very young town and grew only after the Danish defeat in 1864 which led to a focus on the internal circumstances and an increased export to England of agricultural products. There's your Lurpak Butter and Danish Bacon. The town of Varde will host the bonus sprint of the day, through the town the town plaza is crossed which is cobbled and a street behind the church which is also cobbled is ridden, these streets are very narrow so something might happen, also this is shortly before the sprint so pace may be high if nobody is in front of the pack. Which nobody may be as the bonus sprint comes so early that teams with sprinters might just control the stage from the start to the sprint. Next intersting point comes on the exit from the town of Oksbøl where the peloton makes its way through some of the last wild nature in Denmark which serves as training ground for the army. The highest point of the stage, Blåbjerg, while being less mountain than the name might suggest still host a hill sprint that will determine who will wear that jersey for stage 2, the "climb" only maxes out at 3.4% so it will likely be the rider in the break of the day with the best sprint that will claim the honor. Ones the peloton reaches Nymindegab the rest of the route will be next to the ocean with predictable side wind. The banks by Hvide Sande and Thorsminde seperate the ocean from very large dammed in fjords. While this area does not have a lot of permanent residents a lot of summerhouse areas with a lot of german visitors are located in the area meaning that the crowds should be impressive for a race that barely sees any highly populated areas. The last few Km's heading in to Thyborøn are on a thin slit of land separating the North Sea and Limfjorden, here the wind should be the highest. The finish line on Bredgade in Thyborøn is next to the Harbour that made Thyborøn what it is today and team buses can park right next to the finish line.


    Sights stage 1 - Start to finish:
    Esbjerg Station

    Vor Frelser Kirke - Our Savior Church - Esbjerg:

    Varde Plaza:

    Oksbøl:

    Army training area:

    Blåbjerg:


    Nymindegab:

    Hvide Sande:

    Thorsminde:

    WWII Bunker along the west coast:

    Bredgade Thyborøn:


    Stage 2: Aalborg - Aarhus 216Km
    Stage 2 is the second most hilly stage, the finish includes 5 very short climbs, where 3 of them is cobbled, including the finishing climb. What can be expected is an uphill sprint on the last cobbled climb, the heaviest of the sprinters may have been spilled on the 5th to last climb which is a steep ramp that is a decent length, the false flat continuation at the top makes it possible to crack even after the actual hill is over, soon after comes by far the trickiest decent of the whole tour, which includes a under the threes blind 120 degree turn at 12% that has a drop off down to a ditch in the forrest on the outside corner and mud running onto it from the inside corner, the road it self is in terrible condition, and it should be interesting, the fact that it follows the steep 5th to last climb means that the groups will be smaller which will improve rider safety, after the hard mental work of the decent there is another hill, which is very steep at the bottom. 4 Hill sprints offer a chance for the escapees to capture one of the race jerseys. On the route several sites are passed, Denmark's 6th largest town Randers hosts the intermediate sprint and Aarhus the second largest city hosts the stage finish. The Nature areas Rebild Bakker (Rebild Hills) and Rold Skov (Rold Forrest) are passed early on the stage Rebild Bakker has a white gravel climb, several gravel roads are used, it should be noted that these are in very varying condition, some are close to nothing but a two set of wheel tracks, but most are in decent shape. The small town of Mariager is also visited. Hvidsten known in Denmark for being the home town of one of the best known resistance groups in the second world war in Denmark is passed through. Thorsager known for it's round church, one of five in Denmark, the only one not on Bornholm is passed through, so is the town of Rønde known as Denmarks only Mountain Town. In Hobro the remains of a Viking encampment also mark the route. The start town is the 4th largest city in Denmark, Aalborg. A old small town worth of notice, Sønder Tranders, is passed through on the way out of Aalborg


    Sights stage 2 - Start to finish:
    Aalborg by the sound bridge which the stage start under:

    Aalborghus Castle:

    Karolinelund:

    The former Cembrit cement plant in Aalborg:

    Sohngårdsholm Castle:

    Sønder Tranders 1.5km cobbles, very easy, slightly down hill:

    Skørping church:

    Rebild Bakker:



    Røde Mølle - Red Mill:

    Hobro, Fyrkat Viking encampment:

    Mariager:

    Hvidsten:

    Randers:

    Clausholm Castle:

    Gl. Estrup Caste and Agricultural museum:

    Rosenholm Castle:

    Thorsager:

    Rønde:

    Vosnæs Manor:

    Riisskov:


    Tricky forest decent:

    4th to last hill midway after the steep part:

    Trøjborg:

    Hjelmsgade (3rd last hill):

    Norsgade (2nd to last hill):

    Sølystgade and Samsøgade:

    Mønsgade (The final hill):


    Stage 3 Silkeborg - Vejle 196Km
    What well and truly can be called the queen stage of this race comes in the middle of the race. The early parts of the stage includes runs over the 4 tallest hills in denmark, Himmelbjerget, Ydding Skovhøj and Møllehøj/Ejerbavnehøj. The point sprint is in Horsens and the first climb with hill points soon follow, Purhøj. The last part of the race takes part around Vejle and the last 75Km's sees 10 short steep climbs that should break the peloton apart. The final starts with the decent at Munkebjerg and the climb at Ilbæk, after a bit of flat there comes a tricky decent down to the fjord, from where the current finishing climb on the queen stage is climbed, then there is a fast decent and a ride through the middle of Vejle to the other side of the valley where Denmarks steepest climb, Chr. Winters vej is located. Unlike now the finish is not at the top of a climb, it is on the false flat that follows the top of the climb more resembling the finish at the 2012 Worlds meaning that any rider with power left at the top of the climb will have a short home stretch to gain extra seconds. This climb tops out at 26%


    Sights stage 3 - Start to finish:
    Silkeborg:

    Himmelbjerget:

    Ejer Bavnehøj:

    Hansted Monastery:

    Horsens:

    Bygholm Park:

    Bygholm Castle:

    Boller Castle:

    Purhøj:

    Bredballe:

    Høgsholt:

    Højen:

    Brejning:

    Vigenskovvej:

    Munkebjervej decent:

    Ibæk:

    Kiddesvej:


    Christians WintersVej max 26%:



    Stage 4 Haderslev - Odense 96Km
    This stage is a half stage run on the same day as the ITT, it is the easiest of the stages, and should more than likely turn out a sprinter stage, the stage runs through a number of interesting locations on the way, and should have a nice amount of sights to show. There is a mountain sprint outside of Kolding, and because it is a half stage there is no point sprint. A very quick climb though only at 4% may leave cold riders chasing the pack for the rest of the stage if they are not ready for when the start goes in Haderslev. The finish line in Odense is on Thomas B. Thriges gade roughly 70 meters from Hans Christian Andersens childhood home. 


    Sights stage 4 - Start to finish:
    Haderslev:

    Christiansfeld:

    Koldinghus:

    Den Gamle Lillebeltsbro - Bridge from Jutland to Funen:

    Odense:

    Hans Christian Andersens childhood home:


    Stage 5 Svendborg 6.5Km (ITT)
    The ITT in Post Denmark Rundt have long been too long and thus too deciding, I therefore decided to short it down and make it have some steep hill to interrupt the boys with the big engines. Svendborg is a town on south Funen. Not too much special to say about the area, it is all about the route it offers with it's steep hills in short secession. Also the route is fully in town so a nice crowd may be expected.


    Sights stage 5 - Start to finish:
    The bay from Christiansminde:

    Kongebakken - Kinghill - second to last climb:


    Stage 6 Elsinore - Copenhagen (Frederiksberg) 188Km
    Stage six can be summarized by two words, both starting with a C. Castles and Cobbles. Starting in Elsinore and moving south to Copenhagen. Several castles and a citadel. The stage is prettyr hard. Most of the cobbles are quite easy, however the one-two punch of the cobbled climb Ny Carlsberg Vej and the hill Valby Bakke, from which the English bombarded Copenhagen 200 years ago, makes for a short climb combo before the flat finish on Frederiksberg Allé that might prove decisive. The two categorized climbs on the stage are extremely easy, and located far away so should not prove decisive, unless the mountain qualification is still undecided. The start is inside the fortification around the Kronborg Castle and the castle housing the danish parliament is also ran through. Up north a sector of pave used for the exercise race 'En forårsdag i Hell-singør' - "A sunday in Hell-singør" (Forårsdag is really springday but chose context over a direct translation) is rode. This pave is from the 1500's and are thus twice as old as the Napoleonic pave's of Roubaix. They were in the 1800's known for their poor state, hard to imagine 100 years have done anything to help this. They are however located a far way from the finish and should not prove decisive.


    Sights stage 6 - Start to finish:
    Kronborg, Elsinore:

    Elsinore Railway Station:

    Marienlyst Castle:

    15th century cobbles:

    Remains of Gurre Castle:

    Fredensborg Castle, Fredensborg:

    Egelund Castle:

    Nødebo Præstegaard:

    Esrum monastery:

    Havrehol Castle:

    Remains of Søborg Castle

    Græsted - Home town of former Danish Prime-minister Lars Løkke, who is a keen exercise bike rider (Pictured)
    .

    Frederiksborg Castle, Hillerød:

    Lønholt mose:

    Kokkedal Castle:

    Sophienberg Castle:

    Gammel Holtegaard:

    Næsseslottet:

    Marienborg, home of the danish prime ministers:

    Sorgenfri castle:

    Brede værk, Industrial monument:


    Ørholm, industrial mill:

    Dyrehaven and Eremitageslottet - The Copenhagen animal garden and it's castle on it's white gravel roads:

    Rollercoaster at amusement park by the garden:

    Bellevue beach by Klampenborg Station:

    Chalottenlund Castle:

    Bernstroff Castle:

    Langelinie Bridge:

    The Little Mermaid:

    The Citadel - Kastellet:

    Suensonsgade, Nyboder:

    Rosenborg Castle:

    Rundetårn - Observatory:

    Vor Frue Kirke - The Copenhagen Cathedral:

    Magstræde:

    Christiansborg - Parliament:

    Børsen - Stock Exchange:

    Kongens Ny Torv:

    The Marble Church and the Amalienborg castle:

    Nyhavn:

    Inner harbor bridge, completed end of 2014:

    Christians Havn:

    Copenhagen's fortification:

    Ny Carlsberg Glybtotek:

    Tivoli Gardens:

    Townhall:

    The Circus Building:

    The Copenhagen Lakes

    Det Ny Teater

    Absalonsgade (By Copenhagen city museum)

    Halmtorvet:

    Ny Carlsbervej:

    Valbybakke:

    Frederiksberg Castle:

    Frederiksbergs Allé:

    Note: Will update same post rather than create new posts.
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  • « Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 17:38 by DB-Coop »

    Echoes

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    There are things to change about single-day races too.

    First, every single-day race should be allowed to the distance they like (<300km, still ... or not?) but certainly they may exceed 210km. It's up to race organizers to decide and not the UCI. This is the topic  I feel most strongly about. Remember in 1990 the FICP/UCI decided that every (then) non-World CUP events should not exceed 200/210km (except Paris-Brussels due to geographical reasons but now Paris-Brussels no longer exists, for the greatest pleasure of several posters here  :shh). Also since I debated this on some other forums, the ind. pursuit on the track should be 5km and not 4km (with 4 rounds of course)

    Second, the route should be strengthen on its 2/3rd 3/4s. This means that Liège-Bastogne-Liège should get rid of St-Nicolas and get the Vecquée back. If the finale is strengthened riders are waiting for it. Besides the St-Nicolas is in Liège while the Tryptic Wanne-Stockeu-Haute-Levée is in the Ardennes, so making it be more of a decider adds something romantic to it. Also no uphill finish, the Arrow should change.

    Third, adding some variety to Flemish races. Only one should have the Kapelmuur (Flanders someday let's hope), only one the Molenberg, etc. I also hate it when some stage races take classics "difficulties". The greatness of the Arenberg Forest is its rarety. It belongs to Paris-Roubaix, period (or some U23 and youth events, of course). There are many other flat cobbles in the French Flanders ASO just needs to help themselves if they want.

    For stage races:

    - TTT banned (Falsifies the race; but Eindhoven / GP de la libération is okay)
    - Every stage race should get an ITT (though sometimes hard to organize, possibility of subsidies if need be; but there's also a traffic problem, no?)
    - GT reduced to 17 days  :P :P :P and a minimum [Edit: I meant a MAXIMUM of course :D] of 5 bunch stages of 200+ km  :P and no transfers of more than 1 hour by car except during a rest day. Basically start of a next stage in the same town as finish of he previous one except when MTF.
    - Time bonuses totally banned (falsifies the race, completely)     
    - No mountain ITT (useless)

    In cyclocross  :D:

    - no more artificial obstacles like a bridge, planks or sand pools (natural sand is okay though).

    OK no you have stuff to discuss
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  • « Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 18:23 by Echoes »
    "Paris-Roubaix is the biggest cycling race in the world, bigger than the Tour de France, bigger than any other bike race" (Sir Bradley Wiggins)

    LukasCPH

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    I agree with many of your points, Echoes. I don't agree with all of them, but you're welcome to your opinion. :)

    One-day races should have the possibility of choosing their distance on their own, completely agree there.
    And yes, races shouldn't take difficulties out of the middle part and put more difficulties into the final. The great thing about Paris-Roubaix (and the old Ronde van Vlaanderen) is that the races are on in earnest with 100 km to go, and that the last 10-15 km aren't that hard. Seeing the chases, tactical cat-and-mouse plays and attacks on that run-in after Bosberg was always some of the greatest racing of the year. No more. :(
    I see your point about the Flemish races each having their own character; I agree that each one should have its own 1-2 defining spots, with all of them using a wider variety of climbs than they do now. I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that each climb can only be used once per year, but each climb should only be the highlight of the race once per year.

    However, this one I don't understand:
    now Paris-Brussels no longer exists, for the greatest pleasure of several posters here  :shh
    As I remember it, nobody at all welcomed the replacement of Paris-Bruxelles (well, Soissons-Bruxelles) by that plastic circuit race that I don't even remember the name of.
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    DB-Coop

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    There are things to change about single-day races too.

    I certainly agree, but I don't think any major one day races, have that big issues as major stage races. Almost all stage races have entire days where nothing can happen. At least most one day races are actually build so that something will happen. A GT like the Tour maybe has 5 days where something could happen and the rest of the stages are just like GP Ouest France, not hard enough that anything will happen, why even race the stage then?
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  • Slow Rider

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    I agree with some of Echoes' points, not all of course ;) GTs 21 days is non-negotiable, or for Giro and Tour at least. A slightly shorter Vuelta would be fine by me tbh. No TTT I agree with, not sure about the mandatory ITT for stage races. I personally like time bonuses, they're one of the reasons I love the Giro. Adds an extra dimension to the racing for me, I'm strongly in favour of keeping them in most stage races.

    I fully agree that the Belgian races should be more unique; I made a post arguing just that in one of the KBK or the Omloop threads a while ago. The Ronde should return to its old parcours, which made for great racing. Races like E3, DDV and Omloop should not be mere mini-Rondes as they currently are, but instead develop their own profile with different climbs. I would even consider removing one or more of them from the early year schedule and replace it with a restored Paris-Brussels or perhaps GP Ouest France. These races have the history and great potential in parcours, but lack some prestige due to their positions on the calendar.

    As for stage races, I think there should be more variety. France, Spain, Italy and the low countries have plenty of races at the moment. I'd personally be willing to think about things like merging the Dauphiné and Paris-Nice, replacing one of their positions with a race like Turkey, Algarve or indeed Denmark. More prominent positions for these races (which are more unique than just another French mini-GT) would help their profiles and internationalise the race calendar. But probably less controversially, do the Netherlands and Belium really need all of Eneco Tour, that weird ports 'classic' and the Ronde van België?

    Other rule changes would focus on inviting teams: it is just weird that a Tour of California does not want to become WT because then it wouldn't be able to invite local teams any more.. get rid of that rule and allow organisers to invite 1-3 teams of below ProConti level if they are local. And each race that wants to be WT should have a womens version and perhaps an U23 one too.

    I'll give some thoughts to more specific race designs later. I seem to recall I did a Tour of Britain here at some point, but don't know where that is. It was probably sh*t, I'd imagine ;)

    Ps. I have some thoughts on the cx designs as well, perhaps for a different topic?
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  • Echoes

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    However, this one I don't understand:As I remember it, nobody at all welcomed the replacement of Paris-Bruxelles (well, Soissons-Bruxelles) by that plastic circuit race that I don't even remember the name of.

    SR wanted to replace it by some races in Japan.  :TT :TT
    ..and he's still in that trip on this thread.  :(

    Quote from: Slow Rider
    GTs 21 days is non-negotiable

    They are 20 days, now if you discount rest days. The Vuelta was 17 days until the eighties. Perhaps you knew it. In 2006  Lefevere made some comments about reducing  the duration of GT's. The reaction on French forums was: what would Lefevere think if we decided to reduce the length of the classics. As if that did not happen... While there's a reason to reduce GT's if only health issue...

    Time bonuses don't add much to the race except falsifying it. The winner of a race is the one who raced the fastest, period. The worst thing is that it does not hold for ITT, so specialized riders are favoured. Weird thing is that the Giro was the last to adopt it. I have a book by Marc Jeuniau from 1981(former commentator on RTBF) about it. In 1981 Battaglin won it thanks to th bonuses. Tommy Prim  *se raced faster than him. It was all to favour Saronni and Moser, prolific stage winners.

    Mandatory ITT is an idealistic proposal but at least stage races with one favour a complete rider. Hard to organize, I know.   
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  • « Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 11:35 by Echoes »

    Slow Rider

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    SR wanted to replace it by some races in Japan.  :TT :TT
    ..and he's still in that trip on this thread.  :(

    What I actually said was this:

    Perhaps the whole calendar needs an overhaul: should Paris-Brussels instead be placed in the build-up towards the cobbled classics, when the cycling world is watching Belgium anyway? With a parcours more like its old one it's certainly more unique than the shorter copy of the Ronde that E3 Prijs is, enjoyable though that race might be. At the same time this would free up some space later in the season for, say, a Yorkshire classic, a Portuguese race, or an improved and promoted Japan Cup to name some options. A calendar overhaul like that would always step on some people's toes - as any change always does - but I think it is the way to go forward. Be respectful of the history of races and try to conserve the most historically important ones, yet do try to globalise the sport.

    I didn't want to replace it with a Japanese race, but restore it to a more traditional parcours and the place on the spring calendar it had in earlier years. Although with its current name and parcours, yes I'd switch it for a good Japanese one day race in a heartbeat.

    About the GTs: A 3 week GT is for me something unique; tampering with that would indeed be like reducing MSR to 200 km.

    Time bonuses do add something to a race: they make riders fight for stage wins more. I hate seeing stage wins in prestigious mountain finishes being given away by GC riders because they want to gain an ally or something. It is also about adding some variety to stage races and their tactics. Especially in shorter stage races with less decisive climbs or TTs, fights for stage wins and even intermediate sprints often help decide the GC. Not every race has to be exactly the same just because that is tradition. I also wouldn't be opposed to experimenting with a kind of points race road stage, akin to the track event. As a one day race on a circuit parcours with some hills, that could be quite interesting I think.
    But back to time bonuses, if the Giro and other stage races want to maintain these then they should be able to. I personally like them for the extra bit of variety they add.
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  • Echoes

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    With the current name and parcours, it should get back to the old one, period.

    My apologies, though. I weren't the one who claimed that. Others did, though. But replacing Paris-Nice by the Tour of Turkey, what are you on?  :yum


    I would fervently campaign for GT reduced to 17 days as long as races lik the Arrow, Camaiore, Ghent-Ghent, Paris-Brussels, GPE3, Tour of Lazio, etc are not entitled to their rightful ~220km distance that they had in 1989 or 285km for Paris-Brussels. Besides even then, there's still a case for GT reduction. 3 weeks of racing, 3000km over mountains and all is unhealthy in anyone's book.

    Time bonuses would not necessarily incite leadersto fight for stage wins, they would just leave the first three places to non-contenders and watch out for their direct opponents. So for a hypothetical positive aspect there's a more certain negative aspect: the victory going to a rider that rode slower than the second :S I'm still bitter about Terpstra's two losses to Gilbert at the ElektroTour. Each time he was the faster in the race and Phil won thanks to the bonuses. Worst thing with these bonuses is the huge discrimination between bunch stages and ITT. Why don't ITT grant bonuses?  Never understood that... And then imagine time bonuses on a single-day race... Intermediate sprint in Aremberg, Mons-en-Pévèle and Carrefour and then on the velodrome the guy who wins the sprint, does not win the race because the second got a sh*tload of time bonuses during the race. It makes no sense. Its a heresy. It goes against the law of the sport !!!   
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  • DB-Coop

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    Ha ha insanely long post finally complete! :D
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  • LukasCPH

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    Ha ha insanely long post finally complete! :D
    Very nice route for our *dk national tour, with a far superior final stage as well, taking in everything Copenhagen has to offer. :cool

    I'm pretty sure Bryggebroen can't handle the cars following the race, an alternative would be to use Langebro instead (wouldn't change the route all that much).
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  • Dim

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    There are things to change about single-day races too.

    First, every single-day race should be allowed to the distance they like (<300km, still ... or not?) but certainly they may exceed 210km. It's up to race organizers to decide and not the UCI. This is the topic  I feel most strongly about. Remember in 1990 the FICP/UCI decided that every (then) non-World CUP events should not exceed 200/210km (except Paris-Brussels due to geographical reasons but now Paris-Brussels no longer exists, for the greatest pleasure of several posters here  :shh). Also since I debated this on some other forums, the ind. pursuit on the track should be 5km and not 4km (with 4 rounds of course)

    This I would agree with (except the bit about Paris Brussels, many of us were very vocal about that.. but anyway). . I have no issue with races over 210km but it must be relevant to the course and the parcours of the race, not just long for the sake of it. I would love to see some of the old long distance races back but it will never happen. Partly down to demands of tv (although eurosport happily cover some 24 hour motor race), pts on offer, and without significant prize money I cant see it happening.

    Quote

    Third, adding some variety to Flemish races. Only one should have the Kapelmuur (Flanders someday let's hope), only one the Molenberg, etc. I also hate it when some stage races take classics "difficulties". The greatness of the Arenberg Forest is its rarety. It belongs to Paris-Roubaix, period (or some U23 and youth events, of course). There are many other flat cobbles in the French Flanders ASO just needs to help themselves if they want.

    I think we all agree the new flanders route is screwed as a spectacle, but pleases the sponsors with their corporate tents.

    Quote
    For stage races:

    - TTT banned (Falsifies the race; but Eindhoven / GP de la libération is okay)
    - Every stage race should get an ITT (though sometimes hard to organize, possibility of subsidies if need be; but there's also a traffic problem, no?)
    - GT reduced to 17 days  :P :P :P and a minimum [Edit: I meant a MAXIMUM of course :D] of 5 bunch stages of 200+ km  :P and no transfers of more than 1 hour by car except during a rest day. Basically start of a next stage in the same town as finish of he previous one except when MTF.
    - Time bonuses totally banned (falsifies the race, completely)     
    - No mountain ITT (useless)

    TTT's i actually like. I think TT should only be in races where there are stages to compensate the time gained by the time triallists. they should impact a gc, but not to the point where the final gc is the same as the result of the TT. 

    Quote
    In cyclocross  :D:

    - no more artificial obstacles like a bridge, planks or sand pools (natural sand is okay though).


    Heathen
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  • DB-Coop

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    Very nice route for our *dk national tour, with a far superior final stage as well, taking in everything Copenhagen has to offer. :cool

    I'm pretty sure Bryggebroen can't handle the cars following the race, an alternative would be to use Langebro instead (wouldn't change the route all that much).

    I kinda doubted if it could carry cars, but then again why would one build a bridge not sturdy enough to handle a car, surely construction materials would have weighted it down as well. But the other route there was also my original idea, however I chose bryggebroen because the trafic mayhem that would come from having to cross HC Andersens Boulevard on a Friday afternoon would be massive. Prehaps service motorbikes could continue to follow the riders over Bryggebroen, while follow cars could take Langebro and Kalvebod brygge.
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  • Echoes

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    This I would agree with (except the bit about Paris Brussels, many of us were very vocal about that.. but anyway). .

    I distinctly remember a post on that thread of mine that said there were too many races in Belgium for too small a country, 10M inh. It says a lot, I think ..
    I have no issue with races over 210km but it must be relevant to the course and the parcours of the race, not just long for the sake of it.

    I think it should primarily depend on the place in the calendar and the importance of the race for the rider. The Laigueglia Trophy has never been 200+ km even before 1990. Too early in the season for such a long distance, riders aren't fit yet. However the Walloon Arrow should at least be 230km. The current one is heresy. Not all should be of course but basically I think we should let the race promoters decide, not the UCI. Usually they know what is best for their races in agreement (or not :P) with the riders.

    I would love to see some of the old long distance races back but it will never happen. Partly down to demands of tv (although eurosport happily cover some 24 hour motor race), pts on offer, and without significant prize money I cant see it happening. 

    If you're talking about Bordeaux-Paris and Paris-Brest-Paris, I think there were rather traffic problems and lack of competition. Willy Voet said Bordeaux-Paris in the eighties was to inhuman a race and from another time. There's also a long history of doping linked to it, sadly. I don't know if they can come back. Paris-Brest is still a great cyclotourist race but a pro race would need to long to prepare, hard to fit in a heavy modern calendar.

    I think we all agree the new flanders route is screwed as a spectacle, but pleases the sponsors with their corporate tents.
    TTT's i actually like. I think TT should only be in races where there are stages to compensate the time gained by the time triallists. they should impact a gc, but not to the point where the final gc is the same as the result of the TT.

    How can you like races in which a leader directly relies on his teammates' efficiency. Okay teammates are important in bunch races too. I know the counter-argument but no so directly. The GC of a stage race is individual. Let us keep the TTT's as single-day races, no problems with that.

    About the ITT, I think we can see it differently. Imagine you can't have any bunch stage that can build up gaps, example last year's Dunkirk, I think we can be glad to have an ITT that automatically build gaps. It's better than nothing. Of course ideally I'd prefer an ITT + decisive bunch stages but that is not always possible.  ;)   By the way, in my opinion, ITT specialists being the more complete riders, usually, it's normal to see them win most stage races. Current GT's are weird from this point of view. By which I don't mean to say a GC should be the exact result of its ITT.

    Heathen

    Why lol?
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  • Slow Rider

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    I would fervently campaign for GT reduced to 17 days as long as races lik the Arrow, Camaiore, Ghent-Ghent, Paris-Brussels, GPE3, Tour of Lazio, etc are not entitled to their rightful ~220km distance that they had in 1989 or 285km for Paris-Brussels. Besides even then, there's still a case for GT reduction. 3 weeks of racing, 3000km over mountains and all is unhealthy in anyone's book.

    Now this is where I think you're a bit hypocritical. No offense intended by the way, you're entitled to your opinion. But you oppose any changes to the races you like with a vigour: any move away from how they traditionally are is heresy. Yet when races you do not like are concerned - the GTs - you are strongly in favour of changing them, moving away from the traditional form (at least for Tour and Giro) of three weeks racing. Why is the tradition of GTs worth less than that of classics?

    Also, shouldn't GT organisers be granted the same license you want to give organisers of one day races to do with their race as they please? Whether it's increasing the length of a one day race to 250 km, or keeping a GT at three weeks?

    Quote
    Time bonuses would not necessarily incite leadersto fight for stage wins, they would just leave the first three places to non-contenders and watch out for their direct opponents. So for a hypothetical positive aspect there's a more certain negative aspect: the victory going to a rider that rode slower than the second :S I'm still bitter about Terpstra's two losses to Gilbert at the ElektroTour. Each time he was the faster in the race and Phil won thanks to the bonuses. Worst thing with these bonuses is the huge discrimination between bunch stages and ITT. Why don't ITT grant bonuses?  Never understood that... And then imagine time bonuses on a single-day race... Intermediate sprint in Aremberg, Mons-en-Pévèle and Carrefour and then on the velodrome the guy who wins the sprint, does not win the race because the second got a sh*tload of time bonuses during the race. It makes no sense. Its a heresy. It goes against the law of the sport !!!   

    See here's why we differ in opinion on so many issues. For you there is a non-negotiable and timeless law of the sport: what a bike race should look like in order to be fair and traditional. For me, the standards are not nearly as important as a good race. I'd much rather watch a completely unfair and biased race with TTTs, bonus seconds and the like that is exciting, than a race that conforms to every tradition and has a long history but is boring.
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  • Echoes

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    Now this is where I think you're a bit hypocritical.

    Don't take it too seriously. I was ironic, with smileys and all. Yet at this very moment and since 1990 classics and semi-classics have been cut down by the UCI and GT's haven't. The UCI have waged war on single-day races. I have a reliable source that says they wanted to scrap kermess races for example (Verbruggen was opposed to it, for once he did something good, but there were people around him who wanted away with them), those races that build up this sport !

    By the way, I did put up an argument to argue that GT's should be reduced and not single-day races. It's a matter of health for the rider, I think. Here's what a poster said on some other forums: "Riders have to exert themselves day in day out burning more calories than the body can process. Effectively a rider is in deficit from day one, so their body devours itself. It has been estimated that a rider will lose as much as 4-5kgs during the race. When you bear in mind that they are already as light as they can be at the beginning, that means muscle fibre rather than excess fat. It ain't healthy in anyone's book." 

    See here's why we differ in opinion on so many issues. For you there is a non-negotiable and timeless law of the sport: what a bike race should look like in order to be fair and traditional. For me, the standards are not nearly as important as a good race. I'd much rather watch a completely unfair and biased race with TTTs, bonus seconds and the like that is exciting, than a race that conforms to every tradition and has a long history but is boring.

    Yes I assume that point, I guess. Except for the last bit ... "conforms to every tradition and has a long history" I don't see the point, except making me look like an old-fashioned nostalgitard.  :angry

    I'd only say that entertainment is very subjective. I personally don't see anything really exciting about time bonuses while a head & shoulder dominance by one man over a race is for me really enjoyable while many don't like it. However, the race falsification by these time bonuses is an objective fact !  ;)
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    What have we got...

    Single-day races:

    Single-day race any distance: Absolutely agree, if someone wants to put on a Calais to Narbonne 1 day race and riders want to ride it, go do it.

    Routes should not rely on difficulty at the finale:  I agree it has made the racing dull, seconds of entertainment rather than hours.

    No uphill finish, the Arrow should change: Yeah.

    Variety in climbs used in Flemish races: Not totally sold on this one but not against either.

    Stage races take classics "difficulties": Fine by me. I'd rather see them in the stage races than left out because they were already part of a 1 day.

    Stage races:

    TTT banned: No way, I love TTTs. There's room for more originality though, say sending teams down a stretch of motorway 12 abreast.

    Every stage race should get an ITT: Yeah, I sort of agree, shakes up the GC, gives the race someone to chase.

    GT reduced to 17 days: No, I can't see why any length should be set in stone especially if there are rules about transfers.

    GT Maximum of 5 bunch stages: No. There's a difficulty of definition here too.

    GT No transfers of more than 1 hour by car except during a rest day: Yes I agree, it's a tour not a random collection of stages.

    GT MTFs (I added this one): No MTFs with no community at the top. The stage must finish at a destination where riders could eat/sleep and start the next stage.

    Time bonuses totally banned: Totally agree

    No mountain ITT Not sure I do agree. I imagine it's a question of definition again.

    Replacing some traditional stage races in the 'old countries' with a more international range: OK, leave the Dauphine alone but a lot, if not all, those lowland stage races can go.

    WT race organisers to be able to invite 1-3 teams of below ProConti level if they are local: Yes!

    Each race that wants to be WT should have a womens version and perhaps an U23 one too: Yes!

    A kind of points race road stage, akin to the track event: Stage, I-day or whole race? How would you incorporate it into an otherwise standard stage race?

    Live TV coverage compulsory for 1. and above (another one of mine): Yes! No more racing around the dessert in secret.

    Another one of my own - Use a and b stages more often to get boring sprints and TTs out of the way: Genius idea!
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  • Slow Rider

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    Yes I assume that point, I guess. Except for the last bit ... "conforms to every tradition and has a long history" I don't see the point, except making me look like an old-fashioned nostalgitard.  :angry

    I'd only say that entertainment is very subjective. I personally don't see anything really exciting about time bonuses while a head & shoulder dominance by one man over a race is for me really enjoyable while many don't like it. However, the race falsification by these time bonuses is an objective fact !  ;)

    I thought you were proud to be an old-fashioned nostalgitard? :P

    Wasn't intended that way, apologies.

    No uphill finish, the Arrow should change: Yeah.

    An uphill finish doesn't have to be a problem. Strade Bianche has one, but it only adds to the race. The problem is not with the uphill finish, but with the lack of challenging obstacles before it. But yes, I do agree that LFW would be better if it finished somewhere after the Mur.

    Quote
    GT MTFs (I added this one): No MTFs with no community at the top. The stage must finish at a destination where riders could eat/sleep and start the next stage.

    This is an interesting one. There is a lot to say in favour of this: more downhill finishes which are better than uphill ones, better for the riders, and I like the idea of a continuous stage race, where every stage starts exactly where the previous stopped. However, I don't think it is realistically possible as it would essentially ban a lot of the hardest and most famous mountains of the GTs.

    Quote
    Time bonuses totally banned: Totally agree

    Really surprised by the amount of support for this one. I really like time bonuses, the Giro and TA wouldn't be the same without it imo.

    Quote
    A kind of points race road stage, akin to the track event: Stage, I-day or whole race? How would you incorporate it into an otherwise standard stage race?

    Not sure, that was just thinking out loud. I'd definitely like it as a one day experiment. 100 km run-in and them 5 laps over a 20 km circuit with some hills, in each lap 1 uphill and 1 flat sprint. Could be a great spectacle: breakaway riders trying to stay ahead of the peloton, sprinters grabbing as many points early in the race before getting dropped by the better classics riders towards the end...

    Don't know whether it would work, or whether anyone would even care for it, but it looks pretty exciting in my head.

    Quote
    Live TV coverage compulsory for 1. and above (another one of mine): Yes! No more racing around the dessert in secret.

    Not sure why this isn't there yet, would make perfect sense.

    Quote
    Another one of my own - Use a and b stages more often to get boring sprints and TTs out of the way: Genius idea!

    Yes, good idea.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    An uphill finish doesn't have to be a problem. Strade Bianche has one, but it only adds to the race. The problem is not with the uphill finish, but with the lack of challenging obstacles before it. But yes, I do agree that LFW would be better if it finished somewhere after the Mur.
    Oddly, I've always thought the finish to the Strade Bianche was a bit lame.

    This is an interesting one. There is a lot to say in favour of this: more downhill finishes which are better than uphill ones, better for the riders, and I like the idea of a continuous stage race, where every stage starts exactly where the previous stopped. However, I don't think it is realistically possible as it would essentially ban a lot of the hardest and most famous mountains of the GTs.
    It would be interesting to see how much that is true. I took a random sample of 6 iconic French and Italian climbs and they all passed the test.

    Really surprised by the amount of support for this one. I really like time bonuses, the Giro and TA wouldn't be the same without it imo.
    I can't see how it helps other than by creating the possibility of an undeserving leader/winner.

    Not sure, that was just thinking out loud. I'd definitely like it as a one day experiment. 100 km run-in and them 5 laps over a 20 km circuit with some hills, in each lap 1 uphill and 1 flat sprint. Could be a great spectacle: breakaway riders trying to stay ahead of the peloton, sprinters grabbing as many points early in the race before getting dropped by the better classics riders towards the end...
    Don't know whether it would work, or whether anyone would even care for it, but it looks pretty exciting in my head.
    I like this idea a lot.
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  • LukasCPH

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    I kinda doubted if it could carry cars, but then again why would one build a bridge not sturdy enough to handle a car, surely construction materials would have weighted it down as well. But the other route there was also my original idea, however I chose bryggebroen because the trafic mayhem that would come from having to cross HC Andersens Boulevard on a Friday afternoon would be massive. Prehaps service motorbikes could continue to follow the riders over Bryggebroen, while follow cars could take Langebro and Kalvebod brygge.
    Wouldn't the final stage be on a Sunday, as it normally is? So the traffic on Langebro & HC Andersens Boulevard would be significantly less.

    The problem with Bryggebroen is that there is a separator (between bikes and pedestrians) down the middle; that makes either side too narrow for a car - and probably also very dangerous for a full peloton at race speed.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    I can't believe I wrote, "racing around the dessert"  :disapointed

    But then I noticed the Disappointed smiley is spelt 'disapointed', so feeling better about it.   :snooty
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  • DB-Coop

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    Wouldn't the final stage be on a Sunday, as it normally is? So the traffic on Langebro & HC Andersens Boulevard would be significantly less.

    The problem with Bryggebroen is that there is a separator (between bikes and pedestrians) down the middle; that makes either side too narrow for a car - and probably also very dangerous for a full peloton at race speed.

    I measured the distance, it should be wide enough for a car on one side, the tilted fence is a bit of a concern, however after walking over it today I feel a bit more worried about the structure, I am not sure it could carry the weight also I found a few nice surprises on Vesterbro that I wanted to include, the tunnel through the theater 'Det Nye Teater'  and a very short 70m cobbled section on one end of Absalonsgade that was in appalling conditions. There might be a few minor upgrades like that to make on stage 6, mainly I think Stage 2 and Stage 4 are the ones that could use the upgrade. Thinking about changing start town in stage 2 to Aalborg. That way the 6 biggest towns/cities are all included plus maybe the 7th and 8th as well if that is Horsens and Vejle as I think.

    Stage 6 edit:

    Lose Islandsbrygge on the new route from Voldene to Halmtorvet. But instead now gain
    Ny Carlsberg Glybtotek:

    Tivoli Gardens:

    Townhall:

    The Circus Building:

    The Copenhagen Lakes

    Det Ny Teater

    Absalonsgade (By Copenhagen city museum)


    and of cause 343m of Istedgade that makes making the final stage a night stage less appealing.

    I think this route shows of more of the city but the loss of almost 2Km cobbles makes this route a lot easier, the decreased chance of pictures from Islandsbrygge accidentally showing Kalvebodbrygge is a great thing though.
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  • « Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 18:41 by DB-Coop »

    DB-Coop

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    I measured the distance, it should be wide enough for a car on one side, the tilted fence is a bit of a concern, however after walking over it today I feel a bit more worried about the structure, I am not sure it could carry the weight also I found a few nice surprises on Vesterbro that I wanted to include, the tunnel through the theater 'Det Nye Teater'  and a very short 70m cobbled section on one end of Absalonsgade that was in appalling conditions. There might be a few minor upgrades like that to make on stage 6, mainly I think Stage 2 and Stage 4 are the ones that could use the upgrade. Thinking about changing start town in stage 2 to Aalborg. That way the 6 biggest towns/cities are all included plus maybe the 7th and 8th as well if that is Horsens and Vejle as I think.

    Stage 6 edit:

    Lose Islandsbrygge on the new route from Voldene to Halmtorvet. But instead now gain
    Ny Carlsberg Glybtotek:

    Tivoli Gardens:

    Townhall:

    The Circus Building:

    The Copenhagen Lakes

    Det Ny Teater

    Absalonsgade (By Copenhagen city museum)


    and of cause 343m of Istedgade that makes making the final stage a night stage less appealing.

    I think this route shows of more of the city but the loss of almost 2Km cobbles makes this route a lot easier, the decreased chance of pictures from Islandsbrygge accidentally showing Kalvebodbrygge is a great thing though.

    To compensate for lost cobbles I added a harder route threw Christianshavn, closer by the fortification, which includes a stretch of road best described as the paved version of Arnberg, I think the municipal bard and Christiania are in conflict of who has to maintain the road, meaning that the road is basically hardly maintained. then there is also the cobbled Amagergade, where danish 70's TV show 'Huset på Christinashavn' took place.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Remastered the 2nd stages layout, so that Aalborg is now included, the nine biggest town and cities in Denmark are all now part of the race. I will probably make stage 3 a bit longer probably starting off in Hammel instead of in Silkeborg. Stage 4 needs more side roads, it is not hard enough as is. Stage 6 might have a few loops added in the forests near Fredensborg to gain additional length. Would like the stage to be 150Km ish. The option of starting stage 1 in Ribe is a possibility as well.
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  • DB-Coop

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    I wonder how many riders are the ideal amount, I think maybe reducing it all the way to 5 as it gives the advantage of a small 100 rider peloton with 20 teams, which should force more breaks to have a chance. Also I would let all 4 current danish Conti teams take part, all those teams will animate the race. Topsport Vlanderen is on my who to invite list ofc.
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  • « Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 18:15 by DB-Coop »

    DB-Coop

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    Re: The Perfect Race
    « Reply #25 on: April 06, 2014, 00:10 »
    Added more for the eye on stages 2-4 made the finish on stage 3 harder, with no bonus seconds it is needed to make sure that average climbers will either be dropped, or have to go at it from far out. I think adding a lot of sights is important because I know a lot of the people that watch only the Tour watch it because of that. Therefore I have tried to have more CPM's than ASO. CPM is castles per minutes btw.

    A few things I need some help on, what is the ideal way to have the hill sprint work, I like only 1 point for winner, but how many sprints should I include, I mean 10 in the last 70 on stage 3 is just too much, yet all these hills are among the 15 hardest overall. I also chose no points on the last climb stage 3 to reward the break rather than the GC people. Basically I want the hill classification to be a most aggressive rider ish kind of competition, how to make it work?

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  • DB-Coop

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    In responce to the questions Captain Caveman answered above:

    Single-day races:

    Single-day race any distance: Can't see why you wouldn't be for that.

    Routes should not rely on difficulty at the finale:  It always does, the issue is it should not be peloton chasing, then attack on the MTF that is the only climb of the day, that is the Vuelta not a classic. What I see as the real issue is the use of loops, why do we ride the same place twice? I'd rather see a weird twisty route using 3 nearby climbs than seeing one of them included three times. I think this will force more attacks. I mean if on the first time around a rider is like "pew" going up that final combo, isn't he less likely to attack knowing what is to come.

    No uphill finish, the Arrow should change: No, a bit of everything is the best, having more different riders getting wins. The individual races should try to be made for the same type of rider every year though, making multiple classic wins more impressive

    Variety in climbs used in Flemish races: Yes, more in race though, hate when there is a loop. "Oh now we are here again and I know there is no challenges for the next 10Km great!"

    Stage races take classics "difficulties": Not a big issue really, I think TdF should include other cobbles then those in Roubaix too though, and certainly not ride sections the same way, maybe ride some backwards skip some and stuff. Eneco should just be dropped, rather see more Belgian WT classics than that race.

    Stage races:

    TTT banned: No, they need to put a cap on that stuff though, last year every GT, didn't like that.

    Every stage race should get an ITT: Absolutely no, different riders should be favorites at different races, make it hard for Wiggins to win Cataluna and hard for Rodriguez to win Romandie, if anything fewer ITT's, it makes for terrible TV.

    GT reduced to 17 days: Seems fair, with fewer bunch sprints ofc.

    GT Maximum of 5 bunch stages: No - Zero bunch stages is better, have the stages that are bunch stages have some element other than maybe the GC contenders crash. Make the sprint jersey the sprinters price and award big points at intermediate sprints, this way sprinters still have a goal while only winning flat stages that are included in hopes of wind. And maybe a half stage prior to an ITT

    GT No transfers of more than 1 hour by car except during a rest day: Good terrain is more important, I mean having this rule would mean more boring transport stages.

    Time bonuses totally banned: In most cases, for a race where all the stages are bunch sprints I can see a point as that would allow two firsts and a 77th to beat 3 top 10's. But I suppose manipulating the tiebreak could do so as well.

    No mountain ITT Dislike ITT but the more difference in races the better

    Replacing some traditional stage races in the 'old countries' with a more international range: NO! those races are traditional because they work, I mean move Paris Nice for Tour of Brazil, I don't like it.

    WT race organisers to be able to invite 1-3 teams of below ProConti level if they are local: Better yet, merge pro conti and conti and make all conti teams available for wild cards. for more see: http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=4119.0

    Each race that wants to be WT should have a womens version and perhaps an U23 one too: A lot of races have issues with the finances already, adding two extra races for which the interest is limited at best makes little sense.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: The Perfect Race
    « Reply #27 on: April 06, 2014, 02:52 »
    As far as the replacing existing races with international ones goes, this always gets put down with what I see as a really cheap argument, of naming some obscure country/ race (usually tour of beijing or oman) that has no interest in cycling and using it to ridicule the whole idea. The Tour of Beijing really isn't the race we have in mind when we suggest it.  Its ones which will generate actual cycling interest.

    The idea isn't to superimpoze untried races on the world tour, as seems to always be assumed, but to promote to wt proven existing races that have shown that even at the lower level they can bring in interest, good racing etc, and reward them for inveisting in cycling at the lower level.  Also gives other countries and regions incentives to invest in the lower level, or to improve their races knowing the possibility to go up to wt is there.

    How many spectators were there in Paris Nice this year? How many last year or any years. Look at Alpe d huez when it is climbed in Dauphine or Mende when it is climbed in Paris Nice, Verbier too. Empty. All empty. No one in France cares, because its only the 3rd or 4th most imporant race in the country to begin with. Its prestige comes from a time when cycling was essentially isolated from the rest of the globe and all races had to be in the same places. It ain't the 1940's anymore.

    How many spectators would there be in a Tour of Japan? this forum had a poster who actually rode the existing Tour of Japan and he said there were crowds to the rafters. Japanese tv had about 10 tv presenters over to the Giro when Beppu rode it swarming to interview him already after the ttt when RS came like 10th. You know how excited Japan would be if it was actual flipping world Tour? Same with San Luis which also gets major excitement. 
    These are mountainous countries with mountainous populations. They often, unlike Western Europe, do not have many world caliber sporting events in those countries and regions if any. It would be a massive deal to have a top tier cycling race visit that country. It would give cycling a good opportunity to grow. 

    There are legitimate reasons to oppose globalization. they all boil down to logistics. 1 raising money to make these events world tour. Another is the jet lag.  But with Quintana and Horner going back and forth 5 times a season between their home countries and Europe these days, I don't know how big a problem that even is.
    But to protect  races in countries that already have them, over ones in countries where there will be legitimate interest, because that's what you remember watching before, is holding the sport back. Would you take the same approach to travel or food- i liked european food as a kid so I wont try any Latin American food?
    Its not like Europe is going to exactly be poor if it still holds all 5 monuments all 3 gts, probably still half the wt stage races and most of the top ranked classics. But its the 21st century.

    Move on, move on as a sport because the world doesn't stop.

    As for the other issues.

    Every wt race should have a women's edition, absolutely and it should run concurrently with the men's only start a few hours earlier like RVV and FW do.

    I am in favour of ttt's being banned in gts because they are unfair. You are rewarding riders in an individual classification with straight up time based on other people's effort. It is not the same as having a weak team in the mountains because there you can still follow other people's wheels or adjust your strategy.  There is no fall back in ttts. You lose, pure and simple.

    mountain tt's - tbf only the Giro even uses them these days.  They shouldn't be used often, but are neccesary for climbs like Kronplatz which can't hold actual stages. Nevegal was also pretty good because for some reason there were masses of people there.

    GT reduced to 17 days:- nope. 21 works. Its a good round 3 weeks.

    Gt's wildcards- I'll stop there as a sentence because gt's should be able to invite anyone they want. 
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    DB-Coop

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    Re: The Perfect Race
    « Reply #28 on: April 06, 2014, 17:22 »
    As far as the replacing existing races with international ones goes, this always gets put down with what I see as a really cheap argument, of naming some obscure country/ race (usually tour of beijing or oman) that has no interest in cycling and using it to ridicule the whole idea. The Tour of Beijing really isn't the race we have in mind when we suggest it.  Its ones which will generate actual cycling interest.

    The idea isn't to superimpoze untried races on the world tour, as seems to always be assumed, but to promote to wt proven existing races that have shown that even at the lower level they can bring in interest, good racing etc, and reward them for inveisting in cycling at the lower level.  Also gives other countries and regions incentives to invest in the lower level, or to improve their races knowing the possibility to go up to wt is there.

    Did I mention Beijing? Basically my main problem with changing races is that when making a major a minor or removing it we end up making the victories in the past worth less then when they were won, I think my schedule is pretty well balanced here - http://velorooms.com/index.php?topic=4119.0 and I shortened the season with the sole purpose that the ends of the season could be reclaimed to provide more WT racing days, which means that new non European races can join later. Also note how Japan Cup is in my idea as it should be, also I think more WT race days is no problem, it just allows more riders to win. As of now there is too few wins to go around.

    It ain't the 1940's anymore.

    Well I would say that makes my point even better, we don't need to spread races because TV can spread it anyway, I know some might point to F1 and say, "But they spread races" but the main difference there is that the people in attendance of an F1 event pays to see it, watching road cycling is free, so moving the race makes little difference. Only at the ultra local level there is any change as well, I mean a WT race in south france would mean the same to a person from Normandy as the same race had it been in China.

    Would you take the same approach to travel or food- i liked european food as a kid so I wont try any Latin American food?
    Its not like Europe is going to exactly be poor if it still holds all 5 monuments all 3 gts, probably still half the wt stage races and most of the top ranked classics. But its the 21st century.

    That is NOT the same approach the same approach to removing Paris Nice for a Tour of Brazil is this approach. "I liked European food as a child, there is an unknown food that is something else, now lets stop eating European food." - Hardly a logical conclusion if you ask me.

    Every wt race should have a women's edition, absolutely and it should run concurrently with the men's only start a few hours earlier like RVV and FW do.


    How would this matter, I mean will they broadcast it, of cause not because the mens race would a 120Km from the line have better ratings than the womens race last 10Km. The interest in the event is not there if it was then the event would be held.
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    Re: The Perfect Race
    « Reply #29 on: April 06, 2014, 18:23 »
    In responce to the questions Captain Caveman answered above:

    Single-day races:

    Routes should not rely on difficulty at the finale:  It always does, the issue is it should not be peloton chasing, then attack on the MTF that is the only climb of the day, that is the Vuelta not a classic. [...]

    No uphill finish, the Arrow should change: No, a bit of everything is the best, having more different riders getting wins. The individual races should try to be made for the same type of rider every year though, making multiple classic wins more impressive

    My first proposal was a route that is strong at about its two-third or three-quarters, with lesser climbs at the end. That is the only way to incite strong riders to increase the pace a long way for finish. After all, most classics are like that. If I take the classic Tour of Lombardy route, when you had Ghisallo, Civiglio and San Fermo della Battaglia, it was softer and softer. Ghisallo is the hardest, San Fermo is the easiest.

    In Liège it's soft of that too. The Tryptich Wanne-Stockeu-Haute Levée is the pinnacle of the route. The Redoute is still slightly easier. Saint-Nicolas too. The problem is that St-Nicolas is still very hard and encourage riders too wait... Besides St-Nicolas is in Liège and not in the Ardennes. If we are a bit romantic, we'd say Liège-Bastogne should be more "Ardennaise" again.

    Uphill finish might be okay if the final climb is relatively easy like Ans or Siena. But no Mur de Huy and no Cauberg please, riders are waiting for it. These two ideas go hand in hand. By the way I rather like it when the same type of riders win.  :P
     

    Stage races:

    TTT banned: No, they need to put a cap on that stuff though, last year every GT, didn't like that.

    Every stage race should get an ITT: Absolutely no, different riders should be favorites at different races, make it hard for Wiggins to win Cataluna and hard for Rodriguez to win Romandie, if anything fewer ITT's, it makes for terrible TV.

    So you don't like ITT's for horrible TV shows but TTT is fine. Don't tell me you think TTT's are nicer to watch?  :S

    ITT's are the ultimate efforts in road cycling. It's every man for himself. You can't cheat, you can't draft wheels. So I that have a reputation as a stage race hater am defending their status here. When a ITT specialist wins a stage race, I have the feeling a strong man won, one way or another. In GT's it no longer happens now. I find that very weird. When you see that the best ITTist of the last decade, just won the Tour of Flanders.  :P


    By the way, and it's rather important to see that. ITT's might be horrible TV show for TV viewers but for the audience who visit the race, it's great fun. You can see a rider coming every 2 minutes. An imperative !! :)

    GT reduced to 17 days: Seems fair, with fewer bunch sprints ofc.

    GT Maximum of 5 bunch stages: No - Zero bunch stages is better, have the stages that are bunch stages have some element other than maybe the GC contenders crash. Make the sprint jersey the sprinters price and award big points at intermediate sprints, this way sprinters still have a goal while only winning flat stages that are included in hopes of wind. And maybe a half stage prior to an ITT

    wow I thought GT cuts would've made unanimity against.  :lol

    There's a misunderstanding. I said 5 bunch stages of 200+ km in GT's ! A bunch stage is any stage but ITT's, you know.  :P
    But that was provocative. Just to build up my stage race hater image.  :lol

    Quote from: DB-Coop
    I shortened the season with the sole purpose that the ends of the season could be reclaimed to provide more WT racing days, which means that new non European races can join later. Also note how Japan Cup is in my idea as it should be, also I think more WT race days is no problem, it just allows more riders to win. As of now there is too few wins to go around.

    You do realize that that won't serve cycling in those countries. Neither in Europe of course, but well cycling in Europe no longer interest anybody, I guess. We've already discussed it but the logic of a World Tour is to create a world elite of riders that would race everywhere on the planet, one day in Japan, the other day in Canada, the next day in Oz, etc. without any interest for the local people and the local riders because those locals (in their majority!) would be denied a participation in those races.

    Look at the Tour of Flanders now. Belgians were only 20% of the field. In their own Flanders !!! You may like that idea but not me. Say I'm xenophobic if you want but that is not what I want for this sport ! Cycling is not F1. Neither is it tennis ! 

    We need to combat this globalism and liberalism. It has no charm...
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