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The Wheels go round...
« on: April 09, 2012, 04:33 »
What wheels for what surface, lacing patterns, tire selection, wheel components, what to do, what to avoid, what is true, and what is myth. If it's about the (hopefully) only part of the bike that touches the road, it goes here.
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  • "Well don't run with the riders, you twit."

    pedaling squares

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 04:40 »
    First question for the masses: I'm planning a wheel set for my wife's bike. Miche Racing Box hubs (32), Velocity A23 rims. Will probably use DT Comp spokes. What lacing pattern and tires would you suggest? She rides 50-90 km's at a time on smooth-choppy asphalt, and doesn't race. Her weight... I probably should know that but have no clue. Almost 5'10" and fit, I don't know... maybe 145lbs?

    I was thinking radial front and 3x rear. For tires, I like GP4000S but am open to suggestions.
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  • Anthony Moan

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 21:26 »
    Ok wrenches, I never heard something before and I think it is coming from front wheel 90% which was true by me :D after having flat (collision with rock). It can be heard only on really steep hills when out of saddle, sound like sonar hitting nazi submarine, you know ping, ping like spoke would broke every second.
    What is problem?
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    Antisrta

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #3 on: April 10, 2012, 15:12 »
    First question for the masses: I'm planning a wheel set for my wife's bike. Miche Racing Box hubs (32), Velocity A23 rims. Will probably use DT Comp spokes. What lacing pattern and tires would you suggest? She rides 50-90 km's at a time on smooth-choppy asphalt, and doesn't race. Her weight... I probably should know that but have no clue. Almost 5'10" and fit, I don't know... maybe 145lbs?

    I was thinking radial front and 3x rear. For tires, I like GP4000S but am open to suggestions.

    3 cross all around, brass nipps. radial front does nuthin except make for a less reliable wheel. DT comps good choice.

    Vittoria Rubino Pros in 25mm.
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  • Qui si Parla Campagnolo

    Giuseppe Magnetico

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 14:16 »
    First question for the masses: I'm planning a wheel set for my wife's bike. Miche Racing Box hubs (32), Velocity A23 rims. Will probably use DT Comp spokes. What lacing pattern and tires would you suggest? She rides 50-90 km's at a time on smooth-choppy asphalt, and doesn't race. Her weight... I probably should know that but have no clue. Almost 5'10" and fit, I don't know... maybe 145lbs?

    I was thinking radial front and 3x rear. For tires, I like GP4000S but am open to suggestions.

    I'm going to play the Devil's advocate to Antisrta's suggestion that a radial front is weaker.  I ride about 300 miles per week on a radial front wheel for the last three years and have yet to put it remotely out of true.  I'm 180lbs and probably ride roads that are way more choppy than what you and your wife ride.  However, radial spoke patterns do NOT offer any sort of advantage in the aero or weight categories, it's purely an aesthetic choice.

    32h radial front, 32h 3x rear, double butted spokes and brass nips would be a fine wheel set with the parts you mentioned.   
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  • krabkakes

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #5 on: June 04, 2012, 17:38 »

    Implications of Rim Width
    There is a trend in today’s road and triathlon wheels – they’re getting fat. What’s the reason behind this seemingly unstoppable expansion of girth? Depending on who you ask, there are many benefits from using wider rims. First and foremost, you can use a wider tire at little-to-no aerodynamic penalty. When the rim’s width more closely matches your tire’s width, the airflow around this system tends to be smoother than the lightbulb shape of a wide tire and narrow rim.

    But why would you want to use a wider tire? For starters, they reduce your risk of pinch flatting at a given tire pressure. As well, you can use a lower air pressure which absorbs more road shock, and tends to have a reduced Coefficient of Rolling Resistance (Crr). For those not in-the-know, Crr is like a golf score – lower is better (and faster). Lastly, wider tires tend to have better grip on wet or irregular road surfaces. Gone are the days of road racers using 21mm tires at 150 psi (10 bar) for everyday usage. By 2012, we’ve seen nearly a universal adoption of 23 and 25mm tires by the Pro Peloton, at pressures ranging from roughly 90 to 115 pounds. For the cobbled Spring Classics races, they often use up-to-28mm tires and even lower pressure.

    On to the more subjective benefits of wide rims, some say they improve handling or cornering, due to the resulting casing shape of the tire. There is also a loosely thrown-around idea that wider rims unilaterally reduce rolling resistance – in and of themselves. At this time, I say the jury is out; nobody seems to be able to back it up with real numbers. For example, suppose you have a 23mm tire. You mount this tire on both a 19mm wide and 23mm wide rim. Your tire’s contact patch on the 19mm rim is long and narrow, and with the 23mm rim is short and wide (relatively). The wider rim increases air volume slightly, and makes the tire’s sidewalls more vertical. In theory, the tire casing has to deflect less to make the same size contact patch – easy enough.
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    L'arri

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #6 on: May 07, 2013, 22:17 »
    I just bought myself a couple of Conti GP 4000s clinchers to replace the Hutchinson Equinoxes that came with my Look. Never been very keen on those, especially on Belgian roads. Meanwhile, I already swear by Conti folding tyres even after such a short time back in the sport.

    Despite going for Conti GP 4 Seasons 25s on my CX bike and fitting the same for the Artist Formerly Known As Mrs L'Arri, I wanted something a bit zippier on the Look.





    Nice package at Wiggle in which they came with 5 Conti Race inner tubes for next to nada.
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    esafosfina

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #7 on: May 08, 2013, 11:31 »
    With L'Arri here... got a pair of Conti 4 Seasons 25s on at the moment and they are LUSH! There's faster tyres out there, obv, but as an everyday tyre I don't think I've ridden better.
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    L'arri

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #8 on: May 08, 2013, 11:34 »
    With L'Arri here... got a pair of Conti 4 Seasons 25s on at the moment and they are LUSH! There's faster tyres out there, obv, but as an everyday tyre I don't think I've ridden better.

    Thought you'd be on tubs, esa. Prefer clinchers then?

    I would like to have an airing of the tubs vs clinchers argument, actually. I've never really heard that, though I can imagine that it's been done to death in the past.

    I've never ridden tubs, to avoid any risk of getting to like them. I am mechanically inept and I could not trust myself to glue them properly.
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  • esafosfina

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 15:08 »
    I'd only ever race on tubs! Had a nasty experience in Tour de Langkawi back in 1999 when descending and a clincher blew and rolled... really 'blew' my confidence in them after that. But for everyday riding clinchers are just fine... plus the progression since then is amazing. My race wheels would raise a few eyebrows these days: Ambrosio box-section rims on Dura-Ace hubs!  ;) Old skool flavour! I've still got my pair of Mavic SSC wheels from 89... bomb-proof! Shame it's got a screw-on block rather than a 10sp cassette!
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  • L'arri

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 16:52 »
    I'd only ever race on tubs! Had a nasty experience in Tour de Langkawi back in 1999 when descending and a clincher blew and rolled... really 'blew' my confidence in them after that. But for everyday riding clinchers are just fine... plus the progression since then is amazing. My race wheels would raise a few eyebrows these days: Ambrosio box-section rims on Dura-Ace hubs!  ;) Old skool flavour! I've still got my pair of Mavic SSC wheels from 89... bomb-proof! Shame it's got a screw-on block rather than a 10sp cassette!

    Lovely stuff. And those Ambrosios are priceless - they were central to probably the first memory I have of teams having to cover up brands when using off-sponsor kit.

    Former contemporary of mine who's a pro today, he used to run SSCs, but then he always had a garage full of gorgeous stuff. He rode the first carbon frame I ever saw (TVT). Independent source of income, y'know, but most of us were poor. I could only afford these Open 4CDs ...



    ... and ugly MA2s for winter. Some folks, like my brother, could just about stretch to the old SUP Reflexes:



    Mavic used to make some nice wheels though. I never used any other brand, but there never seemed to be a lot of other brands in our price range back then anyway.

    I still run Mavics today on my Look, the shaved Ksyrium Elites:

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  • l29205

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #11 on: May 13, 2013, 17:06 »
    On my road bike, I only ride tubular (ever since I started racing in 1982).  I had a bad experience in 1992 when some of the first "race capable" clinchers came out.  I was maybe in 20th spot or so in the main group and a guy going around a corner pick flat'ed on his brand new clinchers resulting in a massive pile up.  I ended up going upside down and landing full force on someone's chain-ring.  It went through my quad within an inch of the bone, several hundred sticks and staples later I just said no to clinchers.

    As a side note, I love showing up to races on my ancient Mavic Mach 2CD's.  Heavy, stiff and durable. :D
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  • L'arri

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #12 on: May 13, 2013, 18:35 »
    On my road bike, I only ride tubular (ever since I started racing in 1982).  I had a bad experience in 1992 when some of the first "race capable" clinchers came out.  I was maybe in 20th spot or so in the main group and a guy going around a corner pick flat'ed on his brand new clinchers resulting in a massive pile up.  I ended up going upside down and landing full force on someone's chain-ring.  It went through my quad within an inch of the bone, several hundred sticks and staples later I just said no to clinchers.

    As a side note, I love showing up to races on my ancient Mavic Mach 2CD's.  Heavy, stiff and durable. :D

    Ooh, hard luck!  :S It's funny but the fear of a blowout or, much worse, a roll-off has always been the reason why I didn't want to go with tubs.

    We had a lot of dodgy descents where I come from: steep and poor surfaces and I saw a couple of bad moments and swore off them.

    I am appalling at all things mechanical anyway, so I couldn't trust myself to glue them on properly anyway.
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  • l29205

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 14:16 »
    Ooh, hard luck!  :S It's funny but the fear of a blowout or, much worse, a roll-off has always been the reason why I didn't want to go with tubs.

    We had a lot of dodgy descents where I come from: steep and poor surfaces and I saw a couple of bad moments and swore off them.

    I am appalling at all things mechanical anyway, so I couldn't trust myself to glue them on properly anyway.

    Odd a blowout is my concern on a clincher and the lack of control after you flat. :D

    Where I live you have to go out of your away to find a dodgy descent, 12% is about as much as you see and while curvy the roads are well maintained.

    As I have said many times in the past, whether it is bike fit, tire choice, or whatever.  Go with what you feel is comfortable, what works for one doesn't work for all.  Since if you don't you won't get out and ride.   Well maybe with the exception of "friends don't let friends ride SRAM".  ;)
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  • sublimit

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #14 on: May 20, 2013, 14:06 »
    I'd only ever race on tubs! Had a nasty experience in Tour de Langkawi back in 1999 when descending and a clincher blew and rolled... really 'blew' my confidence in them after that. But for everyday riding clinchers are just fine... plus the progression since then is amazing. My race wheels would raise a few eyebrows these days: Ambrosio box-section rims on Dura-Ace hubs!  ;) Old skool flavour! I've still got my pair of Mavic SSC wheels from 89... bomb-proof! Shame it's got a screw-on block rather than a 10sp cassette!

    I had a pair Ambrosio rims on Chorus hubs - really nice set of wheels, usually went with Michelin clinchers for the chaingang style training but went over to Conti 4000 which are rather good.







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  • L'arri

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #15 on: May 20, 2013, 14:50 »
    I had a pair Ambrosio rims on Chorus hubs - really nice set of wheels, usually went with Michelin clinchers for the chaingang style training but went over to Conti 4000 which are rather good.

    Wow, subbles. I thought you were more or less as much of a pauper as me. I'm going to have to start reading your posts differently, you closet bourgeois. :D
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  • Icebreaker

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #16 on: June 08, 2013, 04:25 »
    i ride what I have always ridden, tubulars.  Because that is what I am used to and it is what equipment I have.

    I looked in the garage at what is currently in use, laced up ready to go;

    2 pair of Mavic Paris Roubaix SSC
    2 pair of Ambrosio Nemesis
    1 pair of NISI Lazer
    2 pair of Mavic GP4
    1 pair of Mavic GL330
    1 pair of Ambrosio Montreal

    I have a stack of rims still in wrappers that I have been gathering over the years

    Ambrosio Montreals
    Ambrosio Synthesis
    Ambrosio Nemesis
    Fir Gil8
    Mavic GP4

    I think the Montreals are my overall favourites.
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  • L'arri

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #17 on: June 08, 2013, 05:45 »
    i ride what I have always ridden, tubulars.  Because that is what I am used to and it is what equipment I have.

    I looked in the garage at what is currently in use, laced up ready to go;

    2 pair of Mavic Paris Roubaix SSC
    2 pair of Ambrosio Nemesis
    1 pair of NISI Lazer
    2 pair of Mavic GP4
    1 pair of Mavic GL330
    1 pair of Ambrosio Montreal

    I have a stack of rims still in wrappers that I have been gathering over the years

    Ambrosio Montreals
    Ambrosio Synthesis
    Ambrosio Nemesis
    Fir Gil8
    Mavic GP4

    I think the Montreals are my overall favourites.

    Fir and Nisi: are they old brands? They ring a bell but I don't know why.

    Awesome collection: too many for one guy, Ice! I'll send you my mailing address... :D
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  • sublimit

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #18 on: June 08, 2013, 12:31 »
    Wow, subbles. I thought you were more or less as much of a pauper as me. I'm going to have to start reading your posts differently, you closet bourgeois. :D

    Yes still a pauper but I always liked a nice set of tyres/wheels.  My bikes were never that good and kind of on the heavy side apart from that.     I bought the wheels second hand off a guy that kept changing his groupset every so often, like with about 100 miles in them approxx but virtually new.   :D

    Tubulars are good - they feel faster but with the hassle of puncture repairs.  Conti clinchers on Ambrosio seemed almost as good.
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  • Icebreaker

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    The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #19 on: June 09, 2013, 06:11 »
    Certainly Nisi are no longer in business.  An old Italian firm, sad.  Fir I believe actually are still in business, but sadly no making carbon hoops, probably sourced from Asia.

    This bike is going on a charity spin in the AM.

    I got a good deal on the Vittoria's - not sure I'm sold on them -yet.  We'll see.

    I have a bunch of Continental Competition Tubulars in 25 mm that I got for - believe it or not - $30 each.  Some store in Scottsdale, AZ was clearing them out and I happened to be there.  I kept asking if the price was right, and they kept saying yes.  So, what could I do?
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  • L'arri

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #20 on: June 09, 2013, 17:49 »
    I got a good deal on the Vittoria's - not sure I'm sold on them -yet.  We'll see.

    I don't think I ever read anything good about Vittorias when I was a kid. They were posh and expensive and they used to wear out in 5 seconds flat. Not sure what they're like today. This isn't really an area I know much about. Conti everything for me. :D

    Those Ambrosios are lovely though. I used to love the extra support bit they put in where the valve came through. Smashing attention to detail.

    What pedals are they, by the way? Don't recognise them.
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  • Icebreaker

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #21 on: June 09, 2013, 19:02 »
    I don't think I ever read anything good about Vittorias when I was a kid. They were posh and expensive and they used to wear out in 5 seconds flat. Not sure what they're like today. This isn't really an area I know much about. Conti everything for me. :D

    Those Ambrosios are lovely though. I used to love the extra support bit they put in where the valve came through. Smashing attention to detail.

    What pedals are they, by the way? Don't recognise them.

    The pedals are old school Looks.  The "Delta" platform.  The actual pedal is the a5.1 - no idea where that name came from but those and the CX6 were the last of the "Delta" cleat Looks before they came out with the Keo.

    I like Looks.  They last forever.  My favourites were the PP396's but they are getting hard to find, even used.

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  • L'arri

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #22 on: June 09, 2013, 19:05 »
    The pedals are old school Looks.  The "Delta" platform.  The actual pedal is the a5.1 - no idea where that name came from but those and the CX6 were the last of the "Delta" cleat Looks before they came out with the Keo.

    I like Looks.  They last forever.  My favourites were the PP396's but they are getting hard to find, even used.

    Me too, Ice. I have the top-of-the-range Keo Carbons on my mid-range Look bike. Same as Tommy Voeckler. ;)

    I guess I didn't see a lot of equipment from around '95 until 2009, so there are big gaps in my knowledge of those years.
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  • Anthony Moan

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #23 on: June 11, 2013, 17:00 »
    Adria Mobil mechanic really nice guy share a secret with me about how to fix small puncture on tubular. I was prepared to spent 15 euros for Stan tubeless milk to get that small hole fix, but he told me to clean and put drop of any super glue over puncture. I did it and it works! It just works with small punctures. Wonder if anyone would needed somewhere so I share a secret :D



    P.S. Image hosting fixed :D
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #24 on: June 11, 2013, 17:06 »
    I don't ride tubulars, but if I ever do I'll be sure to remember that.
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    L'arri

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #25 on: June 11, 2013, 18:04 »
    Adria Mobil mechanic really nice guy share a secret with me about how to fix small puncture on tubular. I was prepared to spent 15 euros for Stan tubeless milk to get that small hole fix, but he told me to clean and put drop of any super glue over puncture. I did it and it works! It just works with small punctures. Wonder if anyone would needed somewhere so I share a secret :D



    P.S. Image hosting fixed :D

    Ah, Tone! "Schmoozing with the pros" just took a more honest meaning!
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  • Anthony Moan

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #26 on: June 11, 2013, 18:12 »
    I don't ride tubulars, but if I ever do I'll be sure to remember that.
    Yeah it is great that he told me that, usually they kept secrets but this guy was great, did not have more time to spent with him and see how he fix&prepare 10 team bikes, we can learn a lot.
    As for tubulars I know only one guy ex pro and LBS owner who is capable to sew tubular, but not sure is it possible with new ones. My only option was Stan tubeless and it would cost me a lot coz Vittoria EVO CX has different type of valve and I would need adapter.
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  • Anthony Moan

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #27 on: June 11, 2013, 18:14 »
    Ah, Tone! "Schmoozing with the pros" just took a more honest meaning!
    I would shave them legs for free if anyone asked me :D
    And even buy drugs for them :D
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  • Icebreaker

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    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #28 on: June 11, 2013, 22:11 »
    Yeah it is great that he told me that, usually they kept secrets but this guy was great, did not have more time to spent with him and see how he fix&prepare 10 team bikes, we can learn a lot.
    As for tubulars I know only one guy ex pro and LBS owner who is capable to sew tubular, but not sure is it possible with new ones. My only option was Stan tubeless and it would cost me a lot coz Vittoria EVO CX has different type of valve and I would need adapter.

    Jeezus, I can sew a tubular.  I thought everyone could do that?  A lot of the new ones cannot be sewn as they are vulcanized rather than being stitched.

    All of the Tufo tires, the Conti GP4000 series, one of the Schwalbe tires ( can't remember which one) but i have a pair nd the ride is dreamy.  Those are the ones you use super glue on because you can't really fix them any other way.

    With the ones that are vulcanized I put some Tufo sealant in them before I even ride them, let it circulate and for small stuff they "fix" before you know it.

    You have to drain the stuff out before winter though so that it doesn't get chunky.

    BTW - back in the days of yore when there wasn't stuff like Stan's and Tufo we used to put whole milk into the tires.  As it got older and rancid it got better.  It was inside the tire so you never smelt it but if you got a small puncture it would seal, just like the new stuff does,  of course one day I was riding with a group and one of the guys tires blew, on the hottest day of the year.

    Gawd, what a stench!
  • ReplyReply

  • Anthony Moan

    • Ahab the Arab
    • Road Captain
    • Country: cv
    • Posts: 2044
    • Liked: 891
    Re: The Wheels go round...
    « Reply #29 on: June 11, 2013, 22:35 »
    Jeezus, I can sew a tubular.  I thought everyone could do that?  A lot of the new ones cannot be sewn as they are vulcanized rather than being stitched.

    All of the Tufo tires, the Conti GP4000 series, one of the Schwalbe tires ( can't remember which one) but i have a pair nd the ride is dreamy.  Those are the ones you use super glue on because you can't really fix them any other way.

    With the ones that are vulcanized I put some Tufo sealant in them before I even ride them, let it circulate and for small stuff they "fix" before you know it.

    You have to drain the stuff out before winter though so that it doesn't get chunky.

    BTW - back in the days of yore when there wasn't stuff like Stan's and Tufo we used to put whole milk into the tires.  As it got older and rancid it got better.  It was inside the tire so you never smelt it but if you got a small puncture it would seal, just like the new stuff does,  of course one day I was riding with a group and one of the guys tires blew, on the hottest day of the year.

    Gawd, what a stench!
    Hey thanks!
    Dude I can sew only my ass :D, it would be too complicated and to be honest too expensive to experiment with 65 euros tubular :D
    I thought it can t be fixed with sew coz no stitches I saw.
    As to drain Stan out during winter it would be impossible coz Vittoria makes new valves http://www.wiggle.co.uk/vittoria-corsa-evo-cx-tubular-tyre/ which are well...see pics :D at valve base not top of the valve, idiots. So onyl option is to strip them of rim.

    Hahahaha, you should try low fat milk :D
  • ReplyReply

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