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Sylvester

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Re: TV Commentators rated...
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2012, 19:46 »
Actually, yes, it does. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I think sports commentators should try to avoid being too biased. Even when it involves riders of their own country. That's one of the few things I can complain about with Sporza: all the attention to Belgian guys, and Gilbert and Boonen foremost.

It makes sense of course, since almost all of their viewers are Belgian, but I would personally prefer a bit more neutral commentary.
It also annoys a lot of Belgians, trust me :)
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  • Francois the Postman

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #31 on: April 28, 2012, 22:14 »
    Actually, yes, it does. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I think sports commentators should try to avoid being too biased. Even when it involves riders of their own country. That's one of the few things I can complain about with Sporza: all the attention to Belgian guys, and Gilbert and Boonen foremost.

    It makes sense of course, since almost all of their viewers are Belgian, but I would personally prefer a bit more neutral commentary.

    There's a difference though between an audience focussed attention angle, and bias, not?

    Bias, to me, doesn't mean that a commentator is simply more likely to report on certain events, but that that reporter is more likely to skew the actual reporting in one direction or the other, well beyond the perceptible reality.

    I have little problem with commentators who focus more on "their own", as long as what they says still connects with reality. I even prefer sports journalists who can get excited about "their own" (whatever that means). Sporza, for me, falls mostly in this category. Sure, they talk a lot about the Belgians. But on the whole, they talk sense about the Belgians. And the state of the watering holes en-route, etc.

    It's the commentators whose reality-filter swing to the full in-a-gadda-da-vida, the moment they get a whiff of their favourite subject, who really get up my nose.

    It's the nonsensical hyping that has me throwing heavy objects in the direction of the screen [yes, I have learned to put Kirby on mute, and Lance's retirement is saving me a fortune, given that for far too long, the 2 Ps were the magic voices that came with every broadcast I could get up here].

    Eurosport, for a long time, was a godsend, and I don't mind the combo Hammond and Kelly combo at all.

    But now the Brits* are no longer just participating, but are actually starting to win and stuff. And suddenly British Eurosport seems to have gotten its hands on a cheap and nasty hype-machine all of its own. I have started to like it a lot less, all the more because they somehow feel obliged to attribute "reasonable chances of winning" to nearly all of them, in just about every race covered. If Wiggins shows up this Vuelta, I am channel-hopping, not by switching stations, but by taking the bloody ferry and crossing it, to watch it from "Europe".

    But, to my own shock, there is one type of reporter who I dislike even more. Even if they actually know their crap. To go the full grump: I would save some young puppies from being hurled down a bridge, but only so I could re-use the sack, and swap the puppies for the genuine knowledgeable commentator who is clued-up, but also utterly incapable of injecting banter into their commentary, or uses the type of summary that is narrated to go with the images that we are seeing, as if it was "live" and things "surprise" us, but was actually written long after everyone had crossed the race-line. One of the new-boys was doing that, and and I ended up throwing my TV at a blunt object, as I had a bigger chance of hitting it that way.

    Somehow I much prefer Harmon getting the occasional thing wrong to someone like that getting it all "right". Harmon can waffle, and Kelly can and will put him right. And given that most of the time our sport isn't exactly the most "happening" one, if all you can do for hours on end is talk "insider tech".... I have discovered I prefer Harmon (with 'an expert'), to my own surprise.   


    *= loosely defined as anything who speakka-da-language and has a passport from any of the former territories that we still don't really count as proper countries - in other words, anything that Sky would brand British.
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  • Drummer Boy

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #32 on: April 29, 2012, 01:30 »
    I also like the guys who did Universal sport for Giro in some of the youtube vids i see
    Todd Gogulski and Steve Schlanger. They were a joy to watch when their broadcasts were still available to me. That's no longer the case though.  :(

    "Gogo" has stood atop the podium many a time himself:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Gogulski
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  • L'arri

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #33 on: April 29, 2012, 09:46 »
    FtP that was amazing. I feel like I just climbed off a condemned rollercoaster. ;D
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #34 on: April 30, 2012, 07:54 »
    Aside from P&P who are fuvking awful! I'll don't really mind who it is.

    i have to say it is a real shame for me

    as a kid growing up without the massive choice of viewing now available, all i ever got to see on TV was the Tour de france each year. anything else i had to rely on magazines for information (well ok we got some city centre crits and the milk race but you know what i mean)

    and the tour de france on channel 4 meant P and P. For me Phil Ligget was cycling. and i really loved hearing his voice.

    I now listen to this blathering old man talking rubbish, repeating what the other commentator has said, getting riders wrong and think what happened to the 'voice of cycling'. I had been putting it down to age, thinking maybe the years had not been kind. but thinking back now, as a kid we only got 30 minute highlight packages of each stage. so all i saw was the highlight commentary and not the 4 hours of drivel we get now. maybe he was always this bad but i never knew.

    but i have to say, the realisation that Phil Liggett is a rubbish commentator has damaged a small part of my childhood memories.
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #35 on: April 30, 2012, 08:31 »
    Matt Keenan is a very good Australian commentator although he can be a little 'sickly sweet' with the odd comment.
    Didn't go down too well in the UK when he did the Vuelta...
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #36 on: April 30, 2012, 15:02 »
    Clearly Sean Kelly is not the most popular analyst/co-commentator but I reckon he's OK.
    Keeping quite when you have nothing of interest to say is better than inane droning drivel like some others that I can mention.   He says obvious stuff but most of the the stuff happening is obvious most of the time anyway.

    If you want bad commentary watch F1 motor racing on Sky, its absolutely abysmal.    The main guy cant distinguish between drivers and its a total shambles, IE -  Ferrari driver with yellow helmet is not Alonso for crying out loud.   :fp

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #37 on: April 30, 2012, 23:53 »
    Todd Gogulski and Steve Schlanger. They were a joy to watch when their broadcasts were still available to me. That's no longer the case though.  :(

    "Gogo" has stood atop the podium many a time himself:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Gogulski

    They are quality. Know their stuff.
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #38 on: April 30, 2012, 23:54 »
    Didn't go down too well in the UK when he did the Vuelta...

    Didn't he? I felt he was quite good for a solo.
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #39 on: May 04, 2012, 16:54 »
    By far far far the best ever are those dudes who did radio commentary for San Luis.


     the dude who did Vuelta on his own for itv.

    San Luis was epic and I couldn't even make out what they were trying to say. :D

    The dude is Matt Keenan. Knows his stuff but does need a sidekick.

    I agree with Dave, P+P were great and just iconic part of growing up and my interest in cycling was listening to them talk. To a guy who knew nothing, watched it once a year it was great. Now we know more, get more than just a half hour show and they're bloody buffoons. Senility of age I think and the fact that once you start repeating the same things year in year out its hard to change. Respect them for what they've done though, more or less have the same opinion of Tomalaris and all he's done for Aussie Cycling.
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #40 on: May 04, 2012, 16:57 »
    Brits not liking having to listen to an Aussie for hours, nothing new there. :D

    Whoever the Italian on the Gazzetta streams is, who talks with a controlled pace, I like him because I can sort of understand what he's saying. Sporza are alright too, it seems like they discuss the rider a lot.
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #41 on: May 08, 2012, 19:39 »
    Does it annoy you as well when commentators can't pronounce the riders' names correctly?
    Of course, the worst case is getting a rider wrong (British Eurosport, probably Harmon, announcing Anders Lund as 2nd in the Horsens mass sprint - Anders Lund! If he's a sprinter, I'm a climbing prodigy!). But when you can't pronounce the name correctly, that to me shows that you didn't do that little effort. After all, many people believe in commentators' pronounciation like it were the gospel, which leads to a Norwegian star being called something close to "Hush off", Anglophones mispronouncing Italian names (Chicchi and Pelucchi are only two examples) or Danish commentators calling Flemish riders everything but their real names. And there's the Dutch ex-crosser who does sound akin to an explosion to many (he does not!).
    I won't even start on riders from less traditional cycling countries, only mentioning Saramontis or Laugutin as examples (no, I didn't misspell them, I've heard them pronounced that way). I can understand getting Nepomnyashchy wrong - it's even spelled wrong on the English Astana team site after all - or getting the intonation slightly wrong, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

    Sorry if this came about as a meaningless rant, I just had to blow off some steam. ;)
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #42 on: June 13, 2012, 00:41 »
    I do like Smith and Maggie Backstead, both know the sport, and offer a really interesting perspective. Kelly now offers very little as a colour commentator. Hes been out of the sport so long (despite having a team) that he really offers very little in the way of valuable insight to a race, christ, the guy rode with foot straps in his day.

    Harmon is just starting to grate on me a little. Hes got the knowledge, but hes starting to annoy me, he seems to have taken on the Duffield role of being over the top with any British riders, and his anti doping stance, although admirable is starting to get on my tits a bit as well. His overplayed biterness towards the likes of vino and valverde who have served bans is nearly as infuriating as Phil and Pauls refusal to accept that there is anything wrong with the sport. Im all for commentators being anti-doping and making it public, but they also need to learn to let go and not let it cloud their commentary.

    Really enjoyed Matt Keenan during the Dauphine, to the point where i watched the last stage on (a very high quality) south african stream rather than eurosport. Does very well especially considering hes on his own.

    edit: didnt realise id already posted in this thread. interestingly i said pretty much the same :D except i now like Matt Keenan a bit more.

    Oh, Ant McCrossan.. Lovely bloke but as a commentator :fp (but to be fair he gets given crappy race highlights packages to overdub audio onto on his own)
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  • Dim

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #43 on: June 13, 2012, 00:47 »
    Didn't he? I felt he was quite good for a solo.

    I think because they had a pretty good studio team who were doing talkover for about half of it, then they would cut to a sole aussie doing commentary. Most people would have preferred just to keep the three of them doing the coms all the way through
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  • Francois the Postman

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #44 on: June 13, 2012, 01:04 »
    Kelly now offers very little as a colour commentator. Hes been out of the sport so long (despite having a team) that he really offers very little in the way of valuable insight to a race, christ, the guy rode with foot straps in his day.

    Harmon is just starting to grate on me a little. Hes got the knowledge, but hes starting to annoy me, he seems to have taken on the Duffield role of being over the top with any British riders, and his anti doping stance, although admirable is starting to get on my tits a bit as well. His overplayed biterness towards the likes of vino and valverde who have served bans is nearly as infuriating as Phil and Pauls refusal to accept that there is anything wrong with the sport. Im all for commentators being anti-doping and making it public, but they also need to learn to let go and not let it cloud their commentary.

    As time has gone by, I'm sliding more and more into this ballpark too. Something changed, roughly at the same time when the Brits started to win things. I find I am taking more and more compliments I used to give to them back.
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  • Francois the Postman

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #45 on: June 13, 2012, 01:30 »
    Does it annoy you as well when commentators can't pronounce the riders' names correctly?

    To be honest, no. I kinda like it even, that names are pronounced differently in different languages.

    I suspect I find the reverse more irritating, to be honest. When a commentator, or spelling, suddenly goes all 'native' on me. I much prefer a world where crossing a border still means something, as opposed to the uniform sausage it is becoming. I also prefer to hear a name pronounced as it makes sense to that language, over exposure to something that sounds bad in 2 languages, and often is confusing/hilarious to natives on either end of that lingual divide.

    What we usually get stuck with, is someone who at best gets one or two (main) names right, and who is still totally clueless on the pronunciation of all the other names in that same language. So you kinda end up all over the place, trying to figure out with which ears you should listen to that sound that just came your way.

    I pronounce my own name differently too, even spell it differently, depending on the country I am in. You kinda learn that the hard way, as I appear to have one of those forrun names that people look at and then "correct", as that certainly can't be right. Usually by adding a letter or two, even after I have spelled it.

    I also discovered that I get filed in a totally different part of the alphabet here, and if anyone knows about research into the effect of your surname's position in the alphabet soup on your personality, I'd be interested to read that. Having gone from the almost the back to almost the front, it certainly feels different indeed.
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #46 on: June 13, 2012, 02:12 »
    Does it annoy you as well when commentators can't pronounce the riders' names correctly?

    no, but it really infuriates me when commentators say an entire sentance in their normal voice and then decide to over-italianise the riders name in the middle of it.

    theres no logical reason why someone would say "sitting second in the line of riders is allessandro Pettaaaaachiiiiiii"
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  • DinZ

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #47 on: June 13, 2012, 02:24 »
    Harmon always does that
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #48 on: June 13, 2012, 07:57 »
    To be honest, no. I kinda like it even, that names are pronounced differently in different languages.

    I suspect I find the reverse more irritating, to be honest. When a commentator, or spelling, suddenly goes all 'native' on me. I much prefer a world where crossing a border still means something, as opposed to the uniform sausage it is becoming. I also prefer to hear a name pronounced as it makes sense to that language, over exposure to something that sounds bad in 2 languages, and often is confusing/hilarious to natives on either end of that lingual divide.

    What we usually get stuck with, is someone who at best gets one or two (main) names right, and who is still totally clueless on the pronunciation of all the other names in that same language. So you kinda end up all over the place, trying to figure out with which ears you should listen to that sound that just came your way.

    I pronounce my own name differently too, even spell it differently, depending on the country I am in. You kinda learn that the hard way, as I appear to have one of those forrun names that people look at and then "correct", as that certainly can't be right. Usually by adding a letter or two, even after I have spelled it.

    I also discovered that I get filed in a totally different part of the alphabet here, and if anyone knows about research into the effect of your surname's position in the alphabet soup on your personality, I'd be interested to read that. Having gone from the almost the back to almost the front, it certainly feels different indeed.

    no, but it really infuriates me when commentators say an entire sentance in their normal voice and then decide to over-italianise the riders name in the middle of it.

    theres no logical reason why someone would say "sitting second in the line of riders is allessandro Pettaaaaachiiiiiii"

    Fair enough, I see where you're both coming from.
    I wouldn't like to have a commentator over-italianise (over-whateverise) riders' names, luckily I have yet to listen to one doing that (much). Rolling the Rs occasionally is the "worst" I've heard.

    But when Chicchi gets pronounced "tsh*tshi" (some Anglo commentator), or riders have letters switched around (or new ones inserted that don't belong there) - "Saramontis" or "Laugutin" are two examples (both Dennis Ritter) - the hairs on my back stand up. I can live with pronouncing Dutch/Flemish Gs as normal Gs instead of the weird scratching sound they are supposed to be, and if Nikolas Maes is turned into Nikolas Mäs (also Dennis Ritter), that's OK too.
    I have an issue with commentators using the wrong (second, maternal) surname for Spanish riders - Ritter calls the Izagirre brothers Insausti with annoying consequence. :fp I mean, he never speaks of Luis Leon Gil or Joaquin Oliver either...

    I should add that despite listing all these mis-pronounciations, I rate Ritter highly as a commentator.
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #49 on: June 13, 2012, 08:05 »
    I have no idea their names or what they say really a few words here and there with rider names

    but the 2 of french 3 for Suisse are brilliant - they clearly love the sport and get right into it.
    and oh la la la is used a lot  :tu
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #50 on: June 13, 2012, 11:46 »
    I know I started this thread but I am starting to think some slack should be cut for them.

    It must be difficult to commentate for hours on end, day after day when sometimes nothing can be happening.

    Cliche mode is hard to avoid!

    Although I maybe prefer that to Paul Sherwen just reading from a tourist guide every time we see a long shot of a chateaux from a helicopter.

    "Well Phil, this was the residence of Theobold the 19th, in the fourteenth century and has a massive collection of boar skins in the attic"
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #51 on: June 13, 2012, 13:10 »
    I'd agree about the Phil and Paul thing.  My introduction to Eurpoean racing was the weekly highlights package from the US of the Tour with the John Tesh soundtrack.  All my knowledge of racing had come from magazines and books but that was my first exposure to watching racing 'up close' on tv.

    Then later SBS in Australia started to get the Tour package from P&P and I admit that I loved it!  I recorded every night and watched the whole Tour several times per year.  As they were adding Australia to their coverage, they did a great job of adding the Aussies to their list of 'home team' riders and kept us up to date on the progress of Neil Stephens, etc.  The way that they covered the race back then was awesome

    BUT

    there were hardly any Brits racing, the Aussies were only just starting to really have a presence consistently and nobody gave a damn about the Americans.  As such it was great to watch and they were doing shows short enough that they came out with new stuff a fair bit.  (I also still remember things like Gary Imlach saying, "For those that say the only thing missing is the Gucci cycling shoe, I give you.. the Gucci cycling shoe.  A steal for 400 pounds"

    Then Lance showed up.  P&P were getting parcelled up for the US market as well and it frankly all went to crap.  Many people accuse Phil of being confused these days but this isnt really the case.  He does so many crosses etc during the broadcast that he is often not even listening to Paul but is busy doing a throw to tape or a studio somewhere.  This has destroyed he value of the paring somewhat.

    Now of course they are addicted to Lance because their target market is the US and all other markets are mere subsidiaries.  In 2006 I moved to the UK and rejoiced to discover Eurosport.  Frankly I dont care what people say about Duffield or Sean, etc.  If all you had was Phil and Paul then you would listen to anything instead if given the option!  It was a great sadness to me that I was coming back to Australia and would lose Eurosport - but then I got here and found that cable TV carried Eurosport Australia!
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #52 on: June 13, 2012, 13:15 »
    yep - after havinga  steady diet of Phil and Paul for such a long time, Paul Sherwin, Sean Kelly - even Carlton Kirby win my approval

     :)
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #53 on: June 13, 2012, 15:10 »
    Can't go past the team of Paul, Cipo and the Roving Finish Line Reporter if you ask me, in my 'umble opinion.   :tu :-X
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #54 on: August 20, 2012, 23:02 »
    Dan Lloyd btw is as good a cycling commentator as i have ever heard. Was doing some for Eurosport before, did Vuelta for ITV yesterday.

    really brilliant commentary. Knows a lot about the riders from personal experiences, and if the time is right he tells it. Not stuff everyone knows to fill the gap like - so and so won a stage of the tour once, but rather good things he knows about them from personal experiences.
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #55 on: August 21, 2012, 07:19 »
    Lloyd is good. I second that. You can only dine out on anecdotes for so long but he's promising.

    Prefer Belgian French commentary when available over Eurosport but with the Euro football and the Olympics the poor beggars couldn't afford to show many of the races this year. :(
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #56 on: August 23, 2012, 12:42 »
    My love for Jose de Cauwer knows no boundaries.
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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #57 on: August 30, 2012, 11:56 »
    yep - after havinga  steady diet of Phil and Paul for such a long time, Paul Sherwin, Sean Kelly - even Carlton Kirby win my approval

     :)
    Carlton is getting better I reckon, or I am getting immune to him.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #58 on: August 30, 2012, 12:12 »
    Carlton is getting better I reckon, or I am getting immune to him.

    immune

    he is funny though  :police: :fp  and not in a laughing with you type of way  ;)
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: TV Commentators rated...
    « Reply #59 on: August 30, 2012, 12:57 »
    The commentator I most admire is Sean Kelly. It's as though he spent the first half of his adult life doing something he was naturally brilliant at; and so decided to spend the second half doing the opposite.
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