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Joachim

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Re: Sky
« Reply #1020 on: October 11, 2013, 21:19 »
To be fair he could be supplying. Anyway it's just that instead of taking their bikes to the LBS or a Sky employee, they have to go to the special mechanic who used to ferry LA's blood around. Why? Just reaffirms that darkside figures were in the fold.

You've just made me spurt my cocoa out all over my iPad  :D

So, let me get this straight. The most high-profile, big budget team decides to embark on a doping programme in the context of a bio passport testing scheme that needs consistent attention to avoid triggering.

They send their two biggest riders, one of whom is a multi-gold winning Olympic champion, out to get the 'stuff', and instead of sending them to an inocuous but highly skilled medical practitioner, they send them to a two-bit mechanic on the pretext of fixing their chain rings.

Yeah, I think you are on to something with that one.

Call Kimmage

 :D :D :D
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    Mellow Velo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1021 on: October 11, 2013, 21:20 »
    Come on people, you're really overdoing it now... Yates brought some people to a mechanic that used to drive around doping for Armstrong. So what? It's not a doctor, he does not have any technical knowledge of how to dope, so unless he fixes the bikes to have a special compartment Porte can use to hide a syringe in I don't see how this in any way relates to doping.

    Just looking for reasons to hate Sky now.

    Exactly.
    The high tech team resort to low tech doping.
    Makes perfect sense to the one track mind.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1022 on: October 11, 2013, 21:22 »
    You've just made me spurt my cocoa out all over my iPad  :D

    So, let me get this straight. The most high-profile, big budget team decides to embark on a doping programme in the context of a bio passport testing scheme that needs consistent attention to avoid triggering.

    They send their two biggest riders, one of whom is a multi-gold winning Olympic champion, out to get the 'stuff', and instead of sending them to an inocuous but highly skilled medical practitioner, they send them to a two-bit mechanic on the pretext of fixing their chain rings.

    Yeah, I think you are on to something with that one.

    Call Kimmage

     :D :D :D
    Thanks for the little snapshot of your lifestyle btw.

    Point was purely in response to slowrider, that although he's not a doctor he's evidently qualified to facilitate in other ways, as people will still do. I wasn't asserting that he was really supplying. See the rest of the post.
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  • « Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 21:39 by taiwan »
    "The whole world is run on bluff. No race, no nation, no man has any divine right to take
    advantage of others. Why allow the other fellow to bluff you?"

    Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1023 on: October 11, 2013, 21:32 »

    Thanks for the little snapshot of your lifestyle by the way

    It was a joke. I'm actually wrestling a crocodile

    (whilst typing on an iPad)
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  • « Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 21:55 by Joachim »

    Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1024 on: October 11, 2013, 21:32 »
    They send their two biggest riders, one of whom is a multi-gold winning Olympic champion, out to get the 'stuff', and instead of sending them to an inocuous but highly skilled medical practitioner, they send them to a two-bit mechanic on the pretext of fixing their chain rings.

    Yeah, I think you are on to something with that one.

    Call Kimmage

     :D :D :D

    Stop playing to the voters. Its too late for post of the year entries. :D
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1025 on: October 11, 2013, 21:38 »
    Ach come on! I take enough flak on here, let me do a bit of showboating  :D :D
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  • Vespertine

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1026 on: October 11, 2013, 21:41 »
    Exactly.
    The high tech team resort to low tech doping.
    Makes perfect sense to the one track mind.

    We have seen exactly that before though to be fair, like the comments that Joachim (I think, apologies if I am wrong) made about Blood Bags on the Postal Bus floor and a mechanic looking after fridges.

    "You don't think they would be that stupid" 

    I wouldn't have thought they would have been so stupid as to allow Froome to raise red flags as he rocketed up Ventoux.

    Which incidentally is exactly what I think all the radio talk was about, not buying stages, or anything else but essentially something along the lines of.

    "Froomey WTF are you doing, this is blatant"

    "Yeah, too late now what do you reckon I should do"

    "I reckon that we are going to have a busy rest day you pr*ck, may as well ride it out now but this is the last of it, you are going to reign it in when we get to the The Alpes".

    Which is exactly what happened in my opinion.


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  • Vespertine

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1027 on: October 11, 2013, 21:44 »
    An interesting observation. Why were the SKY doms of 2012 (Froome/Porte/Rogers/Sivstjov) in much better shape then the doms of this year?


    Could it be because some of the marginal gains had been employed by other teams this year, making that statement even more relative than it already is? Just a thought.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1028 on: October 11, 2013, 21:48 »
    We have seen exactly that before though to be fair, like the comments that Joachim (I think, apologies if I am wrong) made about Blood Bags on the Postal Bus floor and a mechanic looking after fridges.

    "You don't think they would be that stupid" 

    I wouldn't have thought they would have been so stupid as to allow Froome to raise red flags as he rocketed up Ventoux.

    Which incidentally is exactly what I think all the radio talk was about, not buying stages, or anything else but essentially something along the lines of.

    "Froomey WTF are you doing, this is blatant"

    "Yeah, too late now what do you reckon I should do"

    "I reckon that we are going to have a busy rest day you pr*ck, may as well ride it out now but this is the last of it, you are going to reign it in when we get to the The Alpes".

    Which is exactly what happened in my opinion.

    Just one tiny issue with that theory.

    Radio transmissions are picked up by other radios.
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  • Vespertine

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1029 on: October 11, 2013, 22:10 »
    Just one tiny issue with that theory.

    Radio transmissions are picked up by other radios.

     :D I presume they are VHF's, I also presume that others know a lot more about what channels they use and how open they are, perhaps they have to be, I am not sure of the rules. However it is VERY easy to ensure that VHF transmissions are kept private, even with the most sophisticated of scanners, channel hopping and other techniques are extremely simple and very hard to track down, as is "time slotting" the signal, which I suspect must be done anyway considering the amount of chatter that must go on during a race. They must have time slots in the frequency band or they would be talking over each other. So you might very well be right, but you might also be taking a very simplistic view of VHF transmission. Not sure.

    However yes, you do have a very good point  :D
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1030 on: October 11, 2013, 22:36 »
    I am, indeed, taking a simplistic view because my knowledge of radio is limited. I could ask a well-informed friend about surveillance and counter-surveillance of two-way radio, but what I can tell you is that certainly during the previous decade teams were using pretty basic systems.

    I've no idea what they are using now
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  • « Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 22:55 by Joachim »

    Vespertine

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1031 on: October 12, 2013, 00:09 »
    I am, indeed, taking a simplistic view because my knowledge of radio is limited. I could ask a well-informed friend about surveillance and counter-surveillance of two-way radio, but what I can tell you is that certainly during the previous decade teams were using pretty basic systems.

    I've no idea what they are using now

    Yeah, not even Dark Side related, I have often wondered the benefits of radios are if other teams can simply switch channel at a key moment and find out what orders are being given or tactics employed. A second man could just channel hop. Maybe I am reaching, but then again why so much conjecture always about exactly what was said over the radio. We never hear of "geeks" listening in somehow, then again they wouldn't have much range , however standing near the top of a big MTF would get some juicy stuff.  Maybe we would have heard it by now if it were possible to listen in. Actual transcripts, it would make good reading. I suspect they are using some kind of very high frequency almost open loop cell phone like kit.

    I have had a poke around the web and I have found some suggestions, but to me it just looks like standard VHF gear, high end, nice but nothing capable of anything particularly fancy.

    Still, I can't help but think how easy it would be to listen into another team's tactics if they were just using standard VHF channels, which is what is suggested by the web really.

    I mean have they got enough channels even? There would be an awful din. They do seem to complain about them not working a bit, which would lend itself to them being very high frequency devices that do not have much range at all.


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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1032 on: October 12, 2013, 06:54 »
    They send their two biggest riders, one of whom is a multi-gold winning Olympic champion, out to get the 'stuff', and instead of sending them to an inocuous but highly skilled medical practitioner, they send them to a two-bit mechanic on the pretext of fixing their chain rings.
    You got me confused here, earlier you stated:
    If I was running a top level team, and recruiting support staff, I would be looking for somebody with experience of the exact job I wanted them to do, not some numpty from a backstreet cycle shop.

    It cant be both.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1033 on: October 12, 2013, 07:15 »
    Yes, it can be because they are two different posts under different circumstances. The latter when people were trying to imply that Motorman was in the employment of Sky, the former after it was clarified that the two riders, along with many other pros use that shop on a casual basis, but a poster tried to claim that Motorman could be, and I quote, "supplying"

    Besides, don't try and spoil the fun :)
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1034 on: October 12, 2013, 07:20 »
    You've just made me spurt my cocoa out all over my iPad  :D

    So, let me get this straight. The most high-profile, big budget team decides to embark on a doping programme in the context of a bio passport testing scheme that needs consistent attention to avoid triggering.

    They send their two biggest riders, one of whom is a multi-gold winning Olympic champion, out to get the 'stuff', and instead of sending them to an inocuous but highly skilled medical practitioner, they send them to a two-bit mechanic on the pretext of fixing their chain rings.

    Yeah, I think you are on to something with that one.

    Call Kimmage

     :D :D :D

    even high profile high budget teams need someone to actually supply the stuff.

    yes, doping doctors will give you a training plan, oversee your program etc ... but sometimes its not possible to just up and pop over to wherever Dr-Dope happens to set up shop.  The actual stuff has to be bough from somewhere ... and a bike mechanic who has a past in sale and supply is a good guy to have on board if you run out.

    I will agree - perhaps there isnt much in it.  So they use this guys bike shop ... so what?  It certainly doesnt appear that he is an employee or that Sky has condoned this.   

    But isnt that what they are doing these days?  riders setting up their own network.  How do you think they get in touch with someone who will do that kind of legwork?    Someone Yates-y put them in touch with ... ;)   

    For a team that is trying to desperately to disassociate itself with any kind of doping, this is a no brainer.   Directors, masseurs, people who work in the industry and NEED specific pro-cycling knowledge - yes for those often it will be hard to fine guys with the experience required who have never been associated with drugs ... but a bike mechanic?   

    I retain my skepticism

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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1035 on: October 12, 2013, 07:51 »
    I think we have established that Sky are not employing motoman, which makes most of your post  redundant. (You won't like the way I've phrased that, but given the nature of our recent contact, I'm not going to bother to find a gentler way to put it)

    With regards to 'supply', a few points. Let's assume Sky were using motorman to supply doping products. This assumption is based on another assumption...that motorman is able to 'supply' doping products. From all I know, motorman was employed to drive a moped around carrying Lance's stash during the Tour. I've seen no indication that he procured it.

    See how assumptions get made, accepted, and then other assumptions built upon them? There is so much of this in forum debate about Sky doping. As I said to Benotti, his belief that Sky are doping might turn out to be the case, but that doesn't make his arguments valid.

    I did have another point, but its early, I haven't had any coffee, and I've forgotten it.

    EDIt: Remembered it!!!

    I think you'll recall that Ashenden, in his swan song, claimed that there still exist pockets of 'sophisticated' dopers. I doubt very much, he was talking about scoring a bag of dope off a wrench, do you?
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1036 on: October 12, 2013, 08:04 »
    But sophisticated doping is talking about the methods

    They still need test, Epo etc ... And employing SOMEONE to go get it for you and having a network to maintain your supply is certainly a part of that

    No sky aren't employing him ... But we aren't talking about a 'sky' promoted program here.  In this day, each rider has to have their own sources and supply chain

    You claiming it's too low tech isn't helping your argument.
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1037 on: October 12, 2013, 08:21 »
    Besides, don't try and spoil the fun :)
    Sorry about that, wont happen again.

    I think you'll recall that Ashenden, in his swan song, claimed that there still exist pockets of 'sophisticated' dopers. I doubt very much, he was talking about scoring a bag of dope off a wrench, do you?
    Is that the same Ashenden who had to learn from Landis the secret of microdosing straight in the vein?

    On that, not Sky related though, sorry about that, I have always wondered how it is possible the testers/employers of the doping test labs never got a clue how it was possible for riders to keep their haematocrit near 50%. Are they just plain stupid? Or the times where no epo was found in the urine?

    On the 'pockets of sophisticated dopers' and motoman; recall Vansevant a few years back? Sven Schoutteten?

    Or does sophisticated have something to do with the logistics?
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1038 on: October 12, 2013, 08:58 »
    You'd have to ask Ashenden for more detail, but I'm guessing that although he is saying there aren't the crude team-wide systems anymore (and yes, the USPS system was crude) and that riders are doing it individually or in small groups, I don't think he is saying riders are managing and implementing their own doping themselves.

    There are riders like Di Luca, who possibly were, but I don't think these are the sophisticated dopers Ashenden is talking about. I don't think riders would have enough knowledge to fool the passport system on their own. They would need corrupt medical expertise....and of course it is likely to be the corrupt medics who are supplying the products.

    I'm still giggling at the notion of Motoman supplying Wiggins and Froome. Let me giggle a bit longer please.

    With regards to your aside about non-detection of epo and 50% HCT, I'm not entirely sure which period you are talking about? Prior to 2001 there was no way of detecting EPO, which is why the 50% limit was introduced, and after the test was introduced doctors taught the riders to micro dose and knew exactly how long the epo would remain detectable. Riders just had to be organised to avoid detection.

    I'm not sure if that helps answer your question, or if you were meaning something else.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1039 on: October 12, 2013, 09:00 »
    Sorry about that, wont happen again.
    Is that the same Ashenden who had to learn from Landis the secret of microdosing straight in the vein?

    On that, not Sky related though, sorry about that, I have always wondered how it is possible the testers/employers of the doping test labs never got a clue how it was possible for riders to keep their haematocrit near 50%. Are they just plain stupid? Or the times where no epo was found in the urine?

    On the 'pockets of sophisticated dopers' and motoman; recall Vansevant a few years back? Sven Schoutteten?

    Or does sophisticated have something to do with the logistics?

    The main reason for testers etc being behind is money and nature of the beast, they will always play catchup
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1040 on: October 12, 2013, 12:10 »
    I think we have established that Sky are not employing motoman, which makes most of your post  redundant. (You won't like the way I've phrased that, but given the nature of our recent contact, I'm not going to bother to find a gentler way to put it)

    With regards to 'supply', a few points. Let's assume Sky were using motorman to supply doping products. This assumption is based on another assumption...that motorman is able to 'supply' doping products. From all I know, motorman was employed to drive a moped around carrying Lance's stash during the Tour. I've seen no indication that he procured it.

    See how assumptions get made, accepted, and then other assumptions built upon them? There is so much of this in forum debate about Sky doping. As I said to Benotti, his belief that Sky are doping might turn out to be the case, but that doesn't make his arguments valid.

    I think you'll recall that Ashenden, in his swan song, claimed that there still exist pockets of 'sophisticated' dopers. I doubt very much, he was talking about scoring a bag of dope off a wrench, do you?

    Who here thinks motoman is a drug supplier to Sky?

    Again, the 'supply' post was purely a response to slow rider having said that motoman did not have technical expertise and could not be a doping facilitator. Someone in his position could concieveably be. Anything else is straw you stuffed in my post.

    We have seen riders or soigneurs perform that role before. You seem to be saying that there is no such thing as a drug supplier. Bear in mind I'm still not saying Froome and Porte were there to procure PEDs, just rebutting the point that as a non doctor he's 100% harmless.

    To your last point: you could fish your doping products out of the bin and still be a sophisticated doper if your methods of using them are sophisticated. Where you get them from doesn't matter.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1041 on: October 12, 2013, 12:56 »
    Do you think motoman is supplying dope to Sky, Taiwan?
    If you do, then say so and provide evidence. If you don't then what argument are you pursuing? That someone has to provide the dope? Of course somebody has to, but if that somebody isn't motoman then why even mention him, especially since we are hypothesising that Sky riders are even doping in the first place.

    Either sh*t or get off the potty.
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1042 on: October 12, 2013, 13:13 »
    The main reason for testers etc being behind is money and nature of the beast, they will always play catchup
    If I was working at a doping lab and would see the riders haematocrit not drop inmense after the implementation of the EPO test I would ring some alarm bells asap.

    Off course they play ketchup  :D, dont forget, doping is a billion dollar buisiness.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1043 on: October 12, 2013, 13:18 »
    Doping changed after EPO test and moved to blood bags and micro dosing.

    It's changed again with the bio passport with EPO now being used as a masking agent rather than a performance enhancer.

    The whole science of testing is pretty interesting and very complex. It isn't a question of feeding in a sample to the doping machine and getting a yes/no answer.

    It's the gaps between the yes and the no that the dopers are able to exploit.
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1044 on: October 12, 2013, 13:31 »
    Do you think motoman is supplying dope to Sky, Taiwan?
    If you do, then say so and provide evidence. If you don't then what argument are you pursuing? That someone has to provide the dope? Of course somebody has to, but if that somebody isn't motoman then why even mention him, especially since we are hypothesising that Sky riders are even doping in the first place.

    Either sh*t or get off the potty.

    See this is where I find your circular arguments tiresome.

    Slow Rider said
    Quote
    So what? It's not a doctor, he does not have any technical knowledge of how to dope, so unless he fixes the bikes to have a special compartment Porte can use to hide a syringe in I don't see how this in any way relates to doping

    and in response to that Taiwan and others are suggesting services that he (motoman) might provide that relate to doping.  Not that he IS doing that ... but that it is plausible.

    If you as a professional cyclist are involved, even in a minor way, with a guy who in the past has ferried drugs around and generally acted as a go between for cyclist-doctor-dope circle ... then its not surprising that people might draw conclusions that it is actually possible that said go-between might perform those kinds of go-between services for you too - especially when there are already other things about your behavior/performance that tend to raise more questions than answers.

    The questions are fair enough even if you do not agree with the conclusions that some people reach.

    Now - as IMO your arguments are circular and not worth arguing ... I am out.

    Have fun  :wave
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  • taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1045 on: October 12, 2013, 13:39 »
    Good grief Joachim I'm being as clear as possible.

    I don't think Motoman is supplying Sky riders with PEDs.

    However, someone like a mechanic could facilitate e.g. by performing that role.

    And that is it. Unless you have a problem with either of those statements, I'm leaving this cul-de-sac.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1046 on: October 12, 2013, 13:55 »
    Yesterday you were all whooping yourselves into a frenzy over Wiggins and Froome going to a bike shop. The most farcical assumptions were then being passed off as fact and before we knew it this was the final link between Sky and doping.

    Keith posted the actual story, not the story you wanted it to be. You all ended up looking pretty foolish. Hell, even Dim who normally remains sanguine, made a pithy comment. And now here you are trying to rescue the situation by saying, in essence, that anybody could be doing anything.

    Well, excuse me if I have to have a sit down to recover from the enormity of that earth shattering revelation. :)

    Yes, anybody could be doing anything. Actually it could even be you supplying dope to Sky and deflecting the blame onto motoman, but unless you've some actual evidence the point you are making is not a point worth making.
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  • taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1047 on: October 12, 2013, 14:10 »
    "Whooping", "frenzy": these are good words.

    ...

    Anyway it's ironic that these guys can apparently stomp all over the Tour clean, yet can't get their bikes fixed without going to a known doping facilitator.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1048 on: October 12, 2013, 14:13 »
    Who said they are clean? I didn't.

    How's that for a circular argument?
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  • taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1049 on: October 12, 2013, 14:20 »
    Well they did OFC.
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