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Joachim

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Re: Sky
« Reply #1050 on: October 12, 2013, 14:27 »
Maybe.

Who else do you think was doping in the 2012/13 Tours?


<Be careful. It could be a trap ;) >
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    taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1051 on: October 12, 2013, 14:32 »
    Level playing field, eh? Laters.
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    Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1052 on: October 12, 2013, 14:41 »
    Err....no, just wondering who else you think was doping. Care to answer?
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  • taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1053 on: October 12, 2013, 14:44 »
    I'll maybe take up this new topic later.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1054 on: October 12, 2013, 15:16 »
    Its all pretty simple.

    Either:
    Yates worked for Disco for one year and then Astana
    Motoman drove EPO around France in 1999-2003ish
    Motoman has a bike shop
    Yates met Motoman at Disco, although it seems by then motoman wasnt motoman anymore he was a mechanic
    Yates stays friends with Motoman
    Motoman has bikeshop
    Froome and Porte live in area x
    Yates says, if you need your bike looking at go to shop y
    Yates says he knows him from his earlier days but doesnt say why
    Froome and Porte have no idea that Maire once couriered EPO around for Lance
    Froome and Porte take bikes for service (along with Gilbert and countless other riders).
    Maire's cover is blown and he is revealed as Motoman
    Brailsford throws a wobbler and bans any contact with motoman
    Froome and Porte stop taking their bikes to motoman for service.

    Or:
    Motoman was couriering EPO when Yates was DS for four years.
    Yates says to Froome and Porte, theres no team doping but if you need some gear go to motoman
    Froome and Porte go to motoman to score
    Froome comes second in Vuelta courtesy of motoman
    DB finds out tells them to get their epo somewhere else
    Froome wins tour
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1055 on: October 12, 2013, 15:17 »
    If you as a professional cyclist are involved, even in a minor way, with a guy who in the past has ferried drugs around and generally acted as a go between for cyclist-doctor-dope circle ... then its not surprising that people might draw conclusions that it is actually possible that said go-between might perform those kinds of go-between services for you too - especially when there are already other things about your behavior/performance that tend to raise more questions than answers.


    So where do you stand on Gilbert visiting motoman AG :D :D

    My personal opinion. Anyone visiting stars and bikes since Motoman got outed is an idiot and asking for trouble. Anyone visiting before he was outed will just claim ignorance and it may just be hes a very good mechanic.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1056 on: October 12, 2013, 15:34 »
    ....or maybe, shock horror..... he's a great guy to hang out with.
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1057 on: October 12, 2013, 16:00 »
    Its all pretty simple.
    Yates met Motoman at Disco, although it seems by then motoman wasnt motoman anymore he was a mechanic
    Yates stays friends with Motoman
    No, Yates knows moto from the time he was a pro in France, way back.

    And moto has a shop near Nice, a nice place to be by the way.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1058 on: October 12, 2013, 20:17 »
    Could it be because some of the marginal gains had been employed by other teams this year, making that statement even more relative than it already is? Just a thought.
    The margin between the level they were last year and this year is much wider than just the other teams bridging the gap just a bit. Lopez, Cataldo and co. should have been better, and it was very clear to me they were not performing at the level they are capable of. The common consensus seems to be it was due to Sky's training program being too strenuous and I do agree with that.
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    benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1059 on: October 12, 2013, 20:20 »
    I think we have established that Sky are not employing motoman, which makes most of your post  redundant. (You won't like the way I've phrased that, but given the nature of our recent contact, I'm not going to bother to find a gentler way to put it)

    With regards to 'supply', a few points. Let's assume Sky were using motorman to supply doping products. This assumption is based on another assumption...that motorman is able to 'supply' doping products. From all I know, motorman was employed to drive a moped around carrying Lance's stash during the Tour. I've seen no indication that he procured it.

    See how assumptions get made, accepted, and then other assumptions built upon them? There is so much of this in forum debate about Sky doping. As I said to Benotti, his belief that Sky are doping might turn out to be the case, but that doesn't make his arguments valid.

    I did have another point, but its early, I haven't had any coffee, and I've forgotten it.

    EDIt: Remembered it!!!

    I think you'll recall that Ashenden, in his swan song, claimed that there still exist pockets of 'sophisticated' dopers. I doubt very much, he was talking about scoring a bag of dope off a wrench, do you?

    Ashenden also claimed that so called clean teams weren't.

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    benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1060 on: October 12, 2013, 20:23 »
    Its all pretty simple.

    Either:
    Yates worked for Disco for one year and then Astana
    Motoman drove EPO around France in 1999-2003ish
    Motoman has a bike shop
    Yates met Motoman at Disco, although it seems by then motoman wasnt motoman anymore he was a mechanic
    Yates stays friends with Motoman
    Motoman has bikeshop
    Froome and Porte live in area x
    Yates says, if you need your bike looking at go to shop y
    Yates says he knows him from his earlier days but doesnt say why
    Froome and Porte have no idea that Maire once couriered EPO around for Lance
    Froome and Porte take bikes for service (along with Gilbert and countless other riders).
    Maire's cover is blown and he is revealed as Motoman
    Brailsford throws a wobbler and bans any contact with motoman
    Froome and Porte stop taking their bikes to motoman for service.

    Or:
    Motoman was couriering EPO when Yates was DS for four years.
    Yates says to Froome and Porte, theres no team doping but if you need some gear go to motoman
    Froome and Porte go to motoman to score
    Froome comes second in Vuelta courtesy of motoman
    DB finds out tells them to get their epo somewhere else
    Froome wins tour

    Why does it have to be epo? I would've thought motoman could get you anything, hence why he is in use. Their must be lots of good mechanics in the south of France and lots of ex team mechanics down there.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1061 on: October 12, 2013, 21:14 »
    Ashenden also claimed that so called clean teams weren't.

    Riiiiight.....so-called clean teams...

    Aren't all teams clean, if asked? Or do some admit to being just a little bit dirty?

     :D

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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1062 on: October 12, 2013, 21:19 »
    Why does it have to be epo? I would've thought motoman could get you anything, hence why he is in use. Their must be lots of good mechanics in the south of France and lots of ex team mechanics down there.

    What makes you think motoman could get you anything let alone anything?

    He just drove the moped.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1063 on: October 12, 2013, 22:02 »
    Its all pretty simple.

    Either:
    Yates worked for Disco for one year and then Astana
    Motoman drove EPO around France in 1999-2003ish
    Motoman has a bike shop
    Yates met Motoman at Disco, although it seems by then motoman wasnt motoman anymore he was a mechanic
    Yates stays friends with Motoman
    Motoman has bikeshop
    Froome and Porte live in area x
    Yates says, if you need your bike looking at go to shop y
    Yates says he knows him from his earlier days but doesnt say why
    Froome and Porte have no idea that Maire once couriered EPO around for Lance
    Froome and Porte take bikes for service (along with Gilbert and countless other riders).
    Maire's cover is blown and he is revealed as Motoman
    Brailsford throws a wobbler and bans any contact with motoman
    Froome and Porte stop taking their bikes to motoman for service.

    Or:
    Motoman was couriering EPO when Yates was DS for four years.
    Yates says to Froome and Porte, theres no team doping but if you need some gear go to motoman
    Froome and Porte go to motoman to score
    Froome comes second in Vuelta courtesy of motoman
    DB finds out tells them to get their epo somewhere else
    Froome wins tour

    When was motoman outed again? and when did Gilbert start not being any good.
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  • pastronef

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1064 on: October 12, 2013, 22:12 »
    When was motoman outed again?

    motoman helped me too!
    he fixed my rear derailleur in 2010 when I rode in Nice and Cannes  :o  :D
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1065 on: October 12, 2013, 22:25 »
    Motoman was outed in mid-late 2012. It was mainly in the USADA decision and some photos from his facebook.

    Gilbert was crap a good 8 months before that :P

    Post Merge: October 12, 2013, 22:25
    motoman helped me too!
    he fixed my rear derailleur in 2010 when I rode in Nice and Cannes  :o  :D

    :o DOPER!
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1066 on: October 12, 2013, 22:27 »
    motoman helped me too!
    he fixed my rear derailleur in 2010 when I rode in Nice and Cannes  :o  :D

    :spank
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1067 on: October 13, 2013, 01:43 »
    So where do you stand on Gilbert visiting motoman AG :D :D

    My personal opinion. Anyone visiting stars and bikes since Motoman got outed is an idiot and asking for trouble. Anyone visiting before he was outed will just claim ignorance and it may just be hes a very good mechanic.

    where I stand on Phil visiting Motoman?   same as you above.

    I think its a stupid thing to do (once he was outed) ... I will give him before he was outed that he might not have known. 

    Sky ... I have my doubts that Yates didnt know he would go the extra mile

    My arguments are not that Motoman is proof of anything, or indeed that he did anything untoward here.

    Just that its a very bad look for Sky who have tried so very hard to be the 'clean team' with no association with doping ... yet are the ones who have hired a dodgy DS (yates), a dodgy Dr (leinders), a dodgy coach (Julich) and now have associations with a dodgy miscellaneous character who has been known to facilitate dodginess.   

    I certainly admit that BMC have some equally dodgy links and people involved ... but they arent shouting from the rooftops how clean they are. 
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  • Ram

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1068 on: October 13, 2013, 02:20 »
    Er, really? Few professionals shout themselves hoarse about doping more than Gilbert. Yet 2011 in comparison to 12 and 13 gets a free pass....

    In fact, Phinney and Gilbert both portray themselves as paragons of clean cycling and ride for bloody Phonak. Why are they to be believed? It looks as bad for Gilbert as it does for anyone else there.
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1069 on: October 13, 2013, 02:22 »
    true enough.  add Marco Pinotti to that too.

    you have a point.  :(
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1070 on: October 13, 2013, 02:40 »
    Where I stand on Gilbert visiting motoman is that it makes visiting motoman even more suspicious since Gilbert ranks somewhere between Froome and Florence Griffith Joyner in  "most suspicious sportsperson never to be caught" lists, based on performance alone and thats not even taking into account his close friendship with Vinoukorov among other dopers and the fact that he was working with Iburaugen in 2011

    I can believe in Phinney and I do believe in Pinotti (since he spoke out and did so before it was cool) but Gilbert has the 3 fastest times up Cauberg including 1 where they didnt ride a descent into it, and also the fastest ever time on the Mur and thats considering that pretty much every single rider who has won those races in the last decade was caught doping. Di Luca, Cunego, Rebellin, Schleck, Rebellin, Valverde, Rebellin, all doped to the max and all  quite a bit off Gilberts times. Which were set in the middle of a period where he won every race he entered for 2 months and  ended the season with more wins than Cav.
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Mellow Velo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1071 on: October 13, 2013, 11:10 »
    Er, really? Few professionals shout themselves hoarse about doping more than Gilbert. Yet 2011 in comparison to 12 and 13 gets a free pass....

    In fact, Phinney and Gilbert both portray themselves as paragons of clean cycling and ride for bloody Phonak. Why are they to be believed? It looks as bad for Gilbert as it does for anyone else there.


    Indeed.
     Once again we have the finger of suspicion pointed at Sky riders for a past visit to an Armstrong dope supplier, prior to him being outed by Hamilton.
    Did they know at the time, or were they in the dark at the time, just like the rest of us?
    Mmm, well Yates being the introducer doesn't help to make that point.

     Now, turning towards BMC and the riders mentioned.
    They have an ongoing association with Chief Soigneur, Freddy Viaene, another Armstrong dope supplier.
    His name only recently came to light, so should they have known?
    Point is, he's still employed by BMC, whereas Motorman was never employed by Sky.

     Yet, we have little or no condemnation at forum level of this situation. Nobody seems much bothered.
    No finger wagging, dot joining supposition or condemnation.
    So, either it's really much ado about nothing, or another example of how success inevitably produces high levels of negative bias and polarizes opinion, at the expense of the whole picture.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1072 on: October 13, 2013, 12:01 »

    Indeed.
     Once again we have the finger of suspicion pointed at Sky riders for a past visit to an Armstrong dope supplier, prior to him being outed by Hamilton.
    Did they know at the time, or were they in the dark at the time, just like the rest of us?
    Mmm, well Yates being the introducer doesn't help to make that point.

     Now, turning towards BMC and the riders mentioned.
    They have an ongoing association with Chief Soigneur, Freddy Viaene, another Armstrong dope supplier.
    His name only recently came to light, so should they have known?
    Point is, he's still employed by BMC, whereas Motorman was never employed by Sky.

     Yet, we have little or no condemnation at forum level of this situation. Nobody seems much bothered.
    No finger wagging, dot joining supposition or condemnation.
    So, either it's really much ado about nothing, or another example of how success inevitably produces high levels of negative bias and polarizes opinion, at the expense of the whole picture.

    It's perfectly natural that the attention goes to the team that is currently dominating, and which shouts loudest about it's alleged commitments to anti doping.

    When Floyd spoke in 2010 the headlines weren't "Landis attacks Levi"or Barry. They were Landis attacks lance. Why, because he was the big celebrity.

    Did the fact that the other riders implicated by Landis weren't mentioned so much mean that everyone thought they were clean? In the case of Brailsford maybe but otherwise no.

     If David Cameron got caught cheating on his wife that would probably get more attention than if a backbencher did.

    Very simple fact of life that the bigger the fish the bigger the story
     
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1073 on: October 13, 2013, 12:07 »
    Its confirmation bias gawn maddddd!  :D

    I'm still giggling at being accused of creating a circular argument by AG when there is no argument. Something gets reported, then misreported, then misconstrued, then rectified, and even after that you still get people like AG desperately trying to make a round peg fit a square hole. Its hilarious!

    But as you say, Mellow, the very same people aren't subjecting the rest of the field to the same level of scrutiny (they will say they are, but they aren't) especially their own heroes....like Gilbert.

    Which brings me back to the question I asked Taiwan, that he is avoiding. Who else do you think was doping in the 2012-13 Tours?
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1074 on: October 13, 2013, 12:16 »
    Now, turning towards BMC and the riders mentioned.
    They have an ongoing association with Chief Soigneur, Freddy Viaene, another Armstrong dope supplier.
    His name only recently came to light, so should they have known?
    Point is, he's still employed by BMC, whereas Motorman was never employed by Sky.

     Yet, we have little or no condemnation at forum level of this situation. Nobody seems much bothered.
    No finger wagging, dot joining supposition or condemnation.
    So, either it's really much ado about nothing, or another example of how success inevitably produces high levels of negative bias and polarizes opinion, at the expense of the whole picture.
    http://www.bikyle.com/FreddySport.asp

    Why would people be bothered with Freddy? Just go through his bio and you know what he is about. When you look at BMC's results he stopped with his oils though...

    That said, I havent heard BMC ranting how they are the vanguard of clean cycling? And, who would believe them? Phonak the Sequal clean? Yeah right.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1075 on: October 13, 2013, 12:44 »
    http://www.bikyle.com/FreddySport.asp

    Why would people be bothered with Freddy? Just go through his bio and you know what he is about. When you look at BMC's results he stopped with his oils though...

    That said, I havent heard BMC ranting how they are the vanguard of clean cycling? And, who would believe them? Phonak the Sequal clean? Yeah right.

     This is the line that folks seem to come up with as excuse for not placing teams in the spotlight.
    Doesn't wash. Several of BMC's riders are almost universally considered to ride "clean".

     Hitch gives the real reason and was something I eluded to in my post. It's all about success and results.
     That and I would add Sky's unpopular tactical method.
     All of which is perfectly understandable, the rest is hypocrisy.
     When he got wind of it, Brailford banned contact. Without a crystal ball,
    what else could he do but act retrospectively.

     As for being the best in the business in his legitimate field, etc, etc, might not the same be said for Motorman?
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1076 on: October 13, 2013, 12:52 »
    Porte losing 17mins on a relatively simple stage today is the final straw.

    Post Tour de France the performance has been abysmal.

    What is going on?

    - Wiggins (3/5) - pointless target of victory in Tour of Britain, did well in World ITT, but didn't put any effort in really in Tour of Pologne or ENECO tour.
    - Froome (1/5) - cashing in on post-Tour crit circuit. Soujorn to USA for altitude training, aiming for 2nd peak at World Champs. Embarrassing Results.
    - Porte (0/5) - got presumably big hike in contract, before Tour. Does not seem to bothered since.
    - Henao (2/5) - tried his best at Poland, but really failed at Vuelta. I would love to know what went wrong. Bad prep? Bottled it? Poor Tactics?
    - EBH (2/5) - recovered from TdF bone break. Tried but still falling short at key sprint finishes, not attempting breakaways.
    - Kiry (3/5) - brilliant breakaway stage win in Vuelta. Great 4th in ITT at Worlds. Surely due an upgrade? Perhaps his chance in 1-week stages?

    Is something wrong? or do the Sky management just not care?

    I noticed that they were sending the level 2 DS'es to the races. I don't think Nico Portal has worked since the TdF. I also noticed that Brailsford was only at the Tour of Britain (one stage was a homage to him) and the World's. I can't remember seeing Kerriston.

    My main point is that if the leaders don't care or don't have form - then don't pick them and give others a chance!!!
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1077 on: October 13, 2013, 12:53 »
    Hitch gives the real reason and was something I eluded to in my post. It's all about success and results.
     That and I would add Sky's unpopular tactical method.
     All of which is perfectly understandable, the rest is hypocrisy.

    Which is why I think people should say who else in the 2012_13 Tours was doping, if only as an exercise to examine whether their own views are coloured by prejudice.

    If it comes down to Sky are dopers because they won, then its time to turn off the TV and do something else.
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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1078 on: October 13, 2013, 13:20 »
    This is the line that folks seem to come up with as excuse for not placing teams in the spotlight.
    I think that is due to your own interpretation. It is pretty clear how I think of BMC when I mention Freddy V, preparatore of Armstrong/Landis/Boonen. Or shall we mention Max Testa? Eric Heiden? Big Jim?
    Doesn't wash. Several of BMC's riders are almost universally considered to ride "clean".
    Good description, considered. But, what do we know about TUE's? Nothing. Is it a coincidence Gilbert is nowhere near the rider he was when the corticos were not restricted?

    Hitch gives the real reason and was something I eluded to in my post. It's all about success and results.
     That and I would add Sky's unpopular tactical method.
     All of which is perfectly understandable, the rest is hypocrisy.
    This is playing the victim role, doesnt suit very well.

    When he got wind of it, Brailford banned contact. Without a crystal ball,
    what else could he do but act retrospectively.

     As for being the best in the business in his legitimate field, etc, etc, might not the same be said for Motorman?
    I think you are reading too much in this motoman stuff, to me it is just a funny coincidence. A very funny one.

    The only question for me in this is wheter Yates knew his old friend Philippe played the role he alledgedly played in that 1999 [?] Tour de France. If so, that might have played a role in his premature leaving of team Sky. It would not surprise me one bit.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1079 on: October 13, 2013, 13:27 »
     If I had to say one way or the other I'd say Yates knew tat motorman drove the moped.

    As for his departure from Sky, I think he was forced out because his own past had started to catch up with him, rather than anything to do with motoman.  At the time, I was expecting it. His position was becoming untenable.
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