collapse


just some guy

  • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
  • Hall of Fame'r
  • Country: 00
  • Posts: 37755
  • Liked: 11443
  • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
Re: Sky
« Reply #1860 on: December 09, 2016, 12:45 »


via Murrjt :cool

  • ReplyReply
  • « Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 13:06 by just some guy »
    Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37755
    • Liked: 11443
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1861 on: December 09, 2016, 17:58 »
    The issues with the Wiggins timeline

    Today The Times ran with a story that according to their sources Wiggins and Team Sky are not expected to face further investigation into the Mystery Packet also know as the Sky Jiffy bag. The report is expected to table concerns about transportation of medical products, the Times article did not name the specific contents of the Jiffy bag.

      https://twitter.com/inrng/status/807133869837262848

    But we now have it confirmed that it was indeed medical products, delivered by Simon Cope to Dr Richard Freeman June 12 2011. There have been various answers given over the time and how the Jiffy bag was delivered and why it was by Cope, but the truth is that Cope was at British Cycling headquarters in Manchester and was asked to deliver the jiffy bag in person which he did. Details via Daily Mail.

    Wiggins had just beaten Cadel Evans and Alexander Vinokourov by 1.26 and 1.49 respectfully, but claims he was having trouble breathing due to Hay fever issues You can read the transcript of the Guardian interview here . What we have is now some sort of timeline forming. But before we get ahead there is one more piece of vital information.

    Bayern Rundfahrt at the end of May where he says he ‘had quite a vicious attack.’ It wasn’t until the Dauphine in June that he met with Dr Freeman, who suggested he see a specialist. Following a training camp and the British national championships, Wiggins went to see a specialist on June 28, four days before the start of that year’s Tour de France. June 28th 2011 16 days after the Jiffy bag was delivered. What also needs to be remembered is that Wiggins has had a long history of Hay fever issues and has been treated with various success with or without requiring a TUE over his career.

    2011 important Timeline
    • Bayern Rundfahrt at the end of May "vicious" hay fever attack
    • Rides Dauphine, wins, has hay fever issues Dr Freedman suggests seeing a specialist
    • Jiffy Bag delivered by Cope June 12 2011
    • June 28th sees Specialist Dr Hargreaves
    • TUE application approved for June 29th kenalog



    These are the facts as we have them, many have assumed that the Jiffy bag was for Wiggins, but we don´t have that reported AFAIK and many have assumed that the bag contained Kenalog again to repeat we don´t know what was in the Jiffy bag.

    Whatever way you look at it medical products were taken over 2 border controls without the Courier (Simon Cope) knowing the contents, we don´t have any information on what Dr Freedman did with the products and who they were for.

    But to get any form of closure we need the following questions answered

    • What was in the Jiffy Bag?
    • Who were the products for?

    If the Jiffy bag contained Kenalog for Wiggins before he even saw Dr Hargreaves the specialist who recommended the drug in the 1st place, then the story takes on a whole different dimension. If not Kenalog then why the secrecy? If not for Wiggins, depending on the Drug why the emergency to get the Drug to France?

    So while the BC findings may be a relief for some, the important questions have not been answered, what was in the jiffy bag?, who was the medicine for?, and depending on if the drug was Kenalog why was it being delivered to the Team Sky Dr 16 days before Wiggins saw the specialist, and 17 days before the UCI approved use ( well 18 days the UCI approved use on the 30th of June for the 29th of June)

    There are many ifs in this and Sky have made this much worse than it needed to be.     

     

  • ReplyReply
  • « Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 18:43 by just some guy »

    Joelsim

    • Classics Winner
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 3399
    • Liked: 1824
      • Music To Your Ears
    • Awards: Fanboy of 2016New member of the year 2015
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1862 on: December 09, 2016, 19:43 »
    A full report is to follow. So we'll find out then.

  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • Multiple World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 15718
    • Liked: 7786
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1863 on: December 09, 2016, 21:13 »
    A full report is to follow. So we'll find out then.
    "We'll conduct a full leak inquiry."
    "..."
    "Oh, you actually want to find out who did it?" :o

    ;)
  • ReplyReply
  • Cyclingnews Women's WorldTour Correspondent
    2017 0711|CYCLING PR Manager; 2016 Stölting Content Editor
    Views presented are my own. RIP Keith & Sean

    Capt_Cavman

    • Road Captain
    • Country: jp
    • Posts: 2209
    • Liked: 1285
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1864 on: December 09, 2016, 21:26 »
    ...
    But to get any form of closure we need the following questions answered

    • What was in the Jiffy Bag?
    • Who were the products for?

    ...
    And thirdly, has Francois the Postman hacked JSG's account?
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37755
    • Liked: 11443
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1865 on: December 10, 2016, 07:49 »
    And thirdly, has Francois the Postman hacked JSG's account?

    hehe it had been bugging me for ages so wanted to write it down, though I should include you stooges as well  :D
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37755
    • Liked: 11443
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1866 on: December 10, 2016, 07:50 »
    A full report is to follow. So we'll find out then.

    tbh not sure we will

    patient Dr Confidentiality
  • ReplyReply

  • Joelsim

    • Classics Winner
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 3399
    • Liked: 1824
      • Music To Your Ears
    • Awards: Fanboy of 2016New member of the year 2015
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1867 on: December 10, 2016, 18:52 »
    tbh not sure we will

    patient Dr Confidentiality

    Hair tonic for SDB.
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37755
    • Liked: 11443
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012

    Havetts

    • Classics Winner
    • *
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 3425
    • Liked: 1056
    • Awards: Fanboy of 2016Doper Shoot Out 2013
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1869 on: December 19, 2016, 21:32 »
    Fluimicul? Why the flip would you have that delivered by package when you can get it at any random apothecary.. :fp


    They honestly wouldve been smarter to just have shut up about it than come out with this non sense.
  • ReplyReply

  • AG

    • Monument Winner
    • *
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 7474
    • Liked: 4145
    • Awards: Winner, 2013 National Championships prediction gameFan of the Year 2013
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1870 on: December 20, 2016, 00:06 »
    seriously?   

    does he think we are all complete morons?   

    And now this trip was a pre-planned logistical trip?   :fp
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37755
    • Liked: 11443
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012

    LukasCPH

    • Multiple World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 15718
    • Liked: 7786
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1872 on: December 30, 2016, 08:30 »
    does he think we are all complete morons?   
    Yes. The answer to your question is yes.

    It's arrogance that is most people's downfall.
  • ReplyReply

  • Yellow Peril

    • Neo Pro
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 276
    • Liked: 269
    • Awards: best new member of 2016
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1873 on: January 02, 2017, 09:04 »
    Yes. The answer to your question is yes.

    It's arrogance that is most people's downfall.


    Never a truer word spoken. Brailsford's arrogance is something to behold. I think he is mystified by the fact that 10 minute responses which don't answer the question asked aren't working in this issue the same way they work for politicians on a daily basis.
  • ReplyReply
  • Giving my view on life, cycling and the desire to do a sub 26min 10mTT on the Isle of Man @JaunePeril

    just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37755
    • Liked: 11443
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012

    stereojet

    • 2nd Year Pro
    • Country: wales
    • Posts: 377
    • Liked: 299
    • I'm still learning the ropes
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1875 on: January 20, 2017, 11:41 »
    <facepalm>
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37755
    • Liked: 11443
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1876 on: January 24, 2017, 11:55 »
    Brailsford year goes from bad to worse with Nicole Cooke testimony today, rumors are now starting from people ( not just twitter ranters ) That Brailsford is looking less and less likely to stay at Sky.

    and the new GM  maybe Fran Millar
  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • Multiple World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 15718
    • Liked: 7786
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1877 on: January 24, 2017, 12:20 »
    and the new GM  maybe Fran Millar
    So then they'll need a press person! :D ;)
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37755
    • Liked: 11443
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1878 on: January 24, 2017, 12:29 »
    So then they'll need a press person! :D ;)

    new Business Manager  :P  ;)  no idea who does the press stuff now
  • ReplyReply

  • LukasCPH

    • Multiple World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 15718
    • Liked: 7786
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1879 on: January 24, 2017, 12:32 »
    new Business Manager  :P  ;)  no idea who does the press stuff now
    The current press person can become business manager, and then they'll need a new one. :P :lol
  • ReplyReply

  • Servais Knavendish

    • Domestique
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 667
    • Liked: 519
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1880 on: January 25, 2017, 13:46 »
    Brailsford year goes from bad to worse with Nicole Cooke testimony today, rumors are now starting from people ( not just twitter ranters ) That Brailsford is looking less and less likely to stay at Sky.

    and the new GM  maybe Fran Millar

    I cannot believe the credence the UK Press is giving Cooke... oh hold on a minute ... she is happy to kick Sky, BC, Wiggins, Brailsford, ... oh their perseverance becomes clear. 

    Let's face it Cooke could start an argument in an empty musette; she has had chips on her shoulder with all sorts of people in all sorts of places since Athens, and this latest drag from the bottle marked 'media attention oxygen' will not be her last.

    If memory serves Cooke herself has not always lived up to the Corinthian team player spirit that she is now somewhat espousing.  Have her relationships with other riders and team mates always been been tip top?
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 37755
    • Liked: 11443
    • Awards: 2020 Tour de France CQ Game winner2017 Spring Classics CQ game winnerBest Avatar of 2016JSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1881 on: January 25, 2017, 13:52 »
    I cannot believe the credence the UK Press is giving Cooke... oh hold on a minute ... she is happy to kick Sky, BC, Wiggins, Brailsford, ... oh their perseverance becomes clear. 

    Let's face it Cooke could start an argument in an empty musette; she has had chips on her shoulder with all sorts of people in all sorts of places since Athens, and this latest drag from the bottle marked 'media attention oxygen' will not be her last.

    If memory serves Cooke herself has not always lived up to the Corinthian team player spirit that she is now somewhat espousing.  Have her relationships with other riders and team mates always been been tip top?

    Not sure Cooke has ever been called a team player, doesn´t mean she wasn´t treated like sh*t when really average men got more support ? Nicole's Dad is also meant to be a complete pain in the arse, but that doesn´t mean that ...... we could go on forever we all have bias
  • ReplyReply

  • Servais Knavendish

    • Domestique
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 667
    • Liked: 519
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1882 on: January 25, 2017, 16:24 »
    its not so much the team player bit - but she has moaned about everything for the last 9 years - she just seems to be saddling her horse to a whole series of claims - without specific insight.
  • ReplyReply

  • riding too slowly

    • 2nd Year Pro
    • Posts: 319
    • Liked: 311
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1883 on: January 30, 2017, 22:06 »
    I cannot believe the credence the UK Press is giving Cooke...

    Probably because they listened to what she said and read what she wrote, rather than relying on ill informed prejudice.
  • ReplyReply

  • riding too slowly

    • 2nd Year Pro
    • Posts: 319
    • Liked: 311
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1884 on: January 30, 2017, 22:24 »
    Let me help you out a little there Servais.  There was a great post here in the clinic - absolutely nailed it.
    http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2058254#p2058254

    So what you are spouting, are the responses of those who have had the ears of the press for all these years.  Imagine that amongst those bottom feeders the "better" ones get the gigs with the men.  The tier below get the gigs with the women.  Read what Cooke wrote and see how she responded at the committee.  She made Brailsford, Howden and Sutton look like a bunch of used car salesmen in dressed in sharp suits.  She is smart, seriously smart.  You don't have to be Sigmund Freud to work out what would happen when she bumped into a thick, arrogant male who was in charge of her.   How threatened were those fairly incapable males going to be ?

    No wonder through her career we had all that nonsense.  Look at the garbage you came up with about "Corinthian spirit".  That 2011 WC finish was a joke.  Team-mate and World TT champion doing nothing to get girl who was in the wrong half of the field when a crash delayed her up to the wheel that was already in the right place.  And who gets the blame.  Read this for Sutton's professionalism and his part in setting up that disaster.
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/dec/29/nicole-cooke-team-sky-british-cycling

    Sutton then scapegoated her with a team meeting held in her bedroom.  Let me spell that out for you so it sinks in.

    THE BRITISH NATIONAL COACH HELD A TEAM MEETING IN A GIRLS BEDROOM.

    How much more wrong do you want it to be before you actually read what she writes before you criticise ?

    Imagine how invulnerable Sutton felt that he could carry on like that ?   Well with Cookson and Brailsford covering his back and no-one above to appeal to he obviously felt he could do what the hell he wanted. 

    I think the Press gave her coverage because they were not prejudiced.
  • ReplyReply

  • Mellow Velo

    • Classics Winner
    • Country: wales
    • Posts: 3023
    • Liked: 3485
    • Awards: 2015 CQ Vuelta Game winnerVelogames Classics Champion 20142013 CQ Ranking Giro Game
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1885 on: January 31, 2017, 09:03 »
    Probably because they listened to what she said and read what she wrote, rather than relying on ill informed prejudice.



    I think the Press gave her coverage because they were not prejudiced.


     It's prejudiced to assume that things haven't changed at all since Cooke's time and at a pace.
     Since the debate seems to have evolved into all things BC, rather than Sky. (worryingly)
     An example from this weekends, UK track championships:
     Last year, there were three women's pursuit teams entered, this year there were eleven.
    Several brand new women's teams were competing.
    Overall, the women's entry was at least 80% of the men.

     I don't suppose for one second that the Mail will be giving that statistic any coverage.

     



  • ReplyReply
  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    LukasCPH

    • Multiple World Champion
    • *
    • Country: de
    • Posts: 15718
    • Liked: 7786
      • lukascph.media
    • Awards: Staff of the year 2016Staff of the year 2015Velorooms Tour de France BINGO champion 2014National Championships Predictions Game Winner 2014Velorooms Monday Quiz ChampionPoster of the Year 2013
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1886 on: January 31, 2017, 12:16 »
    Sutton then scapegoated her with a team meeting held in her bedroom.  Let me spell that out for you so it sinks in.

    THE BRITISH NATIONAL COACH HELD A TEAM MEETING IN A GIRLS BEDROOM.
    I would say that it isn't unusual for team meetings to be held in one of the hotel rooms that the team members occupy. In this case, it happened to be Cooke's.

    These ought to be in the coach's room, definitely, and Sutton shouldn't have scapegoated her - but the fact that they held a team meeting in a hotel room isn't of itself very damning.
  • ReplyReply

  • Servais Knavendish

    • Domestique
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 667
    • Liked: 519
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1887 on: February 01, 2017, 22:57 »
    Let me help you out a little there Servais.  There was a great post here in the clinic - absolutely nailed it.
    http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2058254#p2058254

    So what you are spouting, are the responses of those who have had the ears of the press for all these years.  Imagine that amongst those bottom feeders the "better" ones get the gigs with the men.  The tier below get the gigs with the women.  Read what Cooke wrote and see how she responded at the committee.  She made Brailsford, Howden and Sutton look like a bunch of used car salesmen in dressed in sharp suits.  She is smart, seriously smart.  You don't have to be Sigmund Freud to work out what would happen when she bumped into a thick, arrogant male who was in charge of her.   How threatened were those fairly incapable males going to be ?

    No wonder through her career we had all that nonsense.  Look at the garbage you came up with about "Corinthian spirit".  That 2011 WC finish was a joke.  Team-mate and World TT champion doing nothing to get girl who was in the wrong half of the field when a crash delayed her up to the wheel that was already in the right place.  And who gets the blame.  Read this for Sutton's professionalism and his part in setting up that disaster.
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/dec/29/nicole-cooke-team-sky-british-cycling

    Sutton then scapegoated her with a team meeting held in her bedroom.  Let me spell that out for you so it sinks in.

    THE BRITISH NATIONAL COACH HELD A TEAM MEETING IN A GIRLS BEDROOM.

    How much more wrong do you want it to be before you actually read what she writes before you criticise ?

    Imagine how invulnerable Sutton felt that he could carry on like that ?   Well with Cookson and Brailsford covering his back and no-one above to appeal to he obviously felt he could do what the hell he wanted. 

    I think the Press gave her coverage because they were not prejudiced.

    Thanks for the help with how to patronise...

    So the press weren't interested in her other tirades over the last 8 years, when British cycling was untouchable, but now with the great press tradition of build em up and knock em down fully at play, she becomes useful, credible, and somehow, unimpeachable.  Interesting.
  • ReplyReply

  • riding too slowly

    • 2nd Year Pro
    • Posts: 319
    • Liked: 311
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1888 on: February 06, 2017, 18:51 »
    Thanks for the help with how to patronise...

    So the press weren't interested in her other tirades over the last 8 years, when British cycling was untouchable, but now with the great press tradition of build em up and knock em down fully at play, she becomes useful, credible, and somehow, unimpeachable.  Interesting.

    So you still didn't listen to what she said or read what she wrote.   You are still making stuff up or rather passing on as fact, that stuff other people made up and told you.

    Let me help - here is a link.  http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/culture-media-and-sport-committee/combatting-doping-in-sport/written/45898.html
  • ReplyReply

  • Mellow Velo

    • Classics Winner
    • Country: wales
    • Posts: 3023
    • Liked: 3485
    • Awards: 2015 CQ Vuelta Game winnerVelogames Classics Champion 20142013 CQ Ranking Giro Game
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1889 on: February 06, 2017, 21:04 »
    So you still didn't listen to what she said or read what she wrote.   You are still making stuff up or rather passing on as fact, that stuff other people made up and told you.

    Let me help - here is a link.  http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/culture-media-and-sport-committee/combatting-doping-in-sport/written/45898.html

     Talking of not listening, I'll repeat: a lot of water has passed under the bridge since the time of Cooke's complaints.
     9 years is quite a while ago.
     Go back a further 9 years and what do we find?

    https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=1996-11-21a.1164.0

    https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199697/cmhansrd/vo961121/debtext/61121-24.htm

     1996: The first time that Parliament got involved and asked questions about the then BCF was run.
    GB had been described as cycling's "black hole" by the rest of Europe.
    Back then the BCF could only send Sir Chris Hoy and two other riders to compete, totally unsupported, to Moscow.
     So, they had to take their own bikes and even set them up.

     How things change over time.
  • ReplyReply

  •  

    * Dark Side Chatbox

    Sorry, this shoutbox does not exist.

    Recent Posts



    Top
    Back to top