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Dr. Horrible the Mad Elephant Man

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Re: Sky
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2012, 12:34 »
I think you are confusing 'being clean' with 'able to pass a dope test'.

Ideally, these two things would be more closely related than they are.

flicker said he knew Wiggins was clean, I was just countering that.

By clean I meant takes no drugs

I don't believe he is clean so I do believe he is able to not test positive without being clean or he has given money to the right people so he can just go mad and not be worried about getting caught. I think the former is more likely though.
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    flicker2.0

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #31 on: May 04, 2012, 15:15 »
    I just have respect for the world champion pursuitist, whether it is Coppi, Anquentiel, Merckx, Ritter, Wiggins, Phinney.
    I believe that the attributes of a great TT man (another Tony Martin) can equate into an excellent stage racer, which Wiggins has become. Riding the boards as he has and achieving Olympic Gold multiple times proves to me that Brad has lazerlike focus. It really shows if you compare the focus and courage of Wiggins compared to the raw talent of A. Schleck.

    I know that most of the aforementioned riders doped,(and I consider amphetamines dope, unlike some peoples opinion,) but that does not mean Wiggins is a doper.
    I do think someone like D. Millar or LeMond would be able to tell though, even without a positive drug test.
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  • Zam

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #32 on: June 08, 2012, 15:28 »
    whaddya think? ..he looks good for the tour.
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  • mew

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #33 on: June 08, 2012, 17:21 »
    whaddya think? ..he looks good for the tour.

    Well, it looks as if his prep for the Tour is coming along perfectly.
    Subtle he's not
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #34 on: June 09, 2012, 16:10 »
    I changed the title

    anyone willing to discuss the , in the corner.

    Dauphine: Wiggins and Sky dominate the Joux Plane

    stage 6 just completed

    Maybe we need some maths done on watts etc

    Zam posted this in the chat - Porte-Wiggins group on Col de Joux-Plane (starting from the sharp bend) - 35 min 36 sec. VAM of 1603 m/hr (based on ascent of 981m) which equates to about 6.0 w/kg  now Froome, Rogers and Wiggins would be lower due to less wind but Porte should be about right.

    But the question needs to be asked when was the last time you saw something like that ?

    The thing that concerns me is Porte, Mick and Froome are not normally in the top 9 of the best climbers in a peloton.

    Wiggins I just do not know anymore.

    I am at a lose and we should discuss it.

    Great ride sure but all 4 ?

    Froome really concerns me nothing to Vuelta nothing to now.

    please no overly emotional responses
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    Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #35 on: June 09, 2012, 16:31 »
    I think porte, froome, rogers always had the ability. Todays stage really wasnt that tough, and I dont think the power figures will be anthing to write home about.

    Pretty much just rode a decent tempo all the way. Pretty week feild as well, only BMC have anything close to their first squad there, the rest are all a bit of a mish mash with no teams really interested in taking it to sky at this stage. I think as well, Porte and possibly Froome at another team would be team leaders for this race, certainly if Porte had gone to Greenedge he would be wearing the team leader jersey. Theyve sent a team much stronger than any of the others (and a pants team to switzerland)

    I think Sky are the only ones taking this race seriously.

    If in a month, they do the same thing, against BMC's strongest 9, Liquigas strongest 9, Astana, Radioshack, etc etc then a lot of questions will be asked.
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  • sublimit

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #36 on: June 09, 2012, 16:38 »
    Froome is good, he's always been able to time trial and climb but he's managed to hold the consistency where he would always blow on a particular day in the past. 

    The fact that he's not ill surprises me.   But he's clearly a different rider from a few years back though he's still only young despite seemingly being around for ages.

    Froome representing Kenya in the Commonwealth games ITT from 6 years ago. some interesting names like Tuft, Brammier riding for Britain kind of up there also. :-\   Cummings another quality rider in that time trial.

      http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=6622

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  • « Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 16:59 by sublimit »

    ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #37 on: June 09, 2012, 17:23 »
    I changed the title

    anyone willing to discuss the , in the corner.

    Dauphine: Wiggins and Sky dominate the Joux Plane

    stage 6 just completed

    Maybe we need some maths done on watts etc

    Zam posted this in the chat - Porte-Wiggins group on Col de Joux-Plane (starting from the sharp bend) - 35 min 36 sec. VAM of 1603 m/hr (based on ascent of 981m) which equates to about 6.0 w/kg  now Froome, Rogers and Wiggins would be lower due to less wind but Porte should be about right.

    But the question needs to be asked when was the last time you saw something like that ?

    The thing that concerns me is Porte, Mick and Froome are not normally in the top 9 of the best climbers in a peloton.

    Wiggins I just do not know anymore.

    I am at a lose and we should discuss it.

    Great ride sure but all 4 ?

    Froome really concerns me nothing to Vuelta nothing to now.

    please no overly emotional responses
    I'm getting 5.5W/kg, just a bit shy of that in fact. The only difference could be wind speed, but seeing as that condition has not been mentioned, I'll take for granted that it wasn't considered, and I'm taking Porte's weight here.

    Around 6 for Fromage. Still hovering around 5.5 for me.
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  • « Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 19:01 by ram »

    just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #38 on: June 09, 2012, 18:19 »
    Quote
    “It’s never about messages as much as people would love it to be,” Wiggins said. “We’re just trying to do a job and we’re doing it as efficiently and as professionally as possible. We’ve trained hard as a team. Each individual has worked as hard as I have and we’re getting the job done using our strengths. We haven’t got the arrogance to go about sending out messages.”

    With one day to go, Wiggins holds a healthy 1:20 lead over his teammate Rogers, with Cadel Evans (BMC) a further 16 seconds behind in third. Such has been the firmness of Sky’s policing on the Dauphiné’s climbs that comparisons have been drawn between their tactics and those of Lance Armstrong and his former US Postal team. Given that his formative years coincided neatly with the reign of Miguel Indurain, however, Wiggins preferred to name check the Spaniard’s Banesto squad.

    “It’s very similar and obviously for anyone who can remember, Banesto used to do a similar thing. A lot of people haven’t been in cycling for that long so they won’t remember them,” Wiggins said pointedly. “That was how they raced. You race to your strengths, as efficiently as possible and one day at a time. That’s what we’re doing. It works and we’re not going to change it.”

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/video-wiggins-focused-on-the-task-in-hand-at-dauphine
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #39 on: June 09, 2012, 18:21 »
    Ok thanks Ram for the redo on the maths.

    Of course people should get the benefit of the doubt, and Dim waiting for the tour I can see that.

    I still have issues - Mick is not that good either is froome and Porte imo

    BMC need Cummings to not crash and have form or the tour will be over before it started
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  • « Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 19:43 by just some guy »

    ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #40 on: June 09, 2012, 19:33 »
    Just realised that I use a different type of calculation :fp

    Using the VAM technique and estimating power from that, the average is somewhere around 5.6, so not much of a difference from my calculation at all (2% difference or so).

    The difference in method being that I'd used the conventional method, I think (of course I'd think that), of calculation of work done in climbing up an ascent (considering forces of friction and weight components) and calculation of power from that and the given time. No biggy, just some spam.
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #41 on: June 09, 2012, 19:51 »
    I think porte, froome, rogers always had the ability. Todays stage really wasnt that tough, and I dont think the power figures will be anthing to write home about.

    Every top team at the Dauphine has riders that always had the ability, BMC and Rabo to name 2

    Pretty much just rode a decent tempo all the way. Pretty week feild as well, only BMC have anything close to their first squad there, the rest are all a bit of a mish mash with no teams really interested in taking it to sky at this stage. I think as well, Porte and possibly Froome at another team would be team leaders for this race, certainly if Porte had gone to Greenedge he would be wearing the team leader jersey. Theyve sent a team much stronger than any of the others (and a pants team to switzerland)

    But we saw this at Postal/Discovery with Heras, Salvodelli, Hamilton, Leipheimer and Landis. It does look like Sky are following a certain other team with blue in its colour.

    I think Sky are the only ones taking this race seriously.

    I think every team is taking this race seriously. French teams are attacking everyday. Rabos are getting into breaks. LLSanchez having a go. These are not rdiers jut participating and waiting for July.

    If in a month, they do the same thing, against BMC's strongest 9, Liquigas strongest 9, Astana, Radioshack, etc etc then a lot of questions will be asked.

    I think we are seeing a 'dry run' for the TdF.

    I cannot believe Sky are performing in a similar vein to the infamous 'blue train' without 'assistance'.

    I am sorry but this sport has had all this before and no i dont believe in miracles whether they are blue, argyle or blue and black.

    Are we suggesting that Bruyneel has given up the 'doping'. What about Astana? Katusha? Movistar? Come on these teams as far as we can see have no reason to drop their programs.

    So that points to Tenerife being that if you cant beat them join them then beat them.



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    usedtobefast

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #42 on: June 09, 2012, 23:11 »
    Well, it looks as if his prep for the Tour is coming along perfectly.
    Subtle he's not
    that team is well "prepared" reminds me of of Garmin. they finally figured that close to winning isn't winning. thus we see
    better results.... :fp ;D
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #43 on: June 09, 2012, 23:14 »
    These are always a bit awkward as I am British and as such want Sky to succeed. I'd hope that wouldn't make me blind to doping issues but I admit may well make me see them in a more benign light.

    Point 1. Sky did this at the Dauphine last year, with the difference that Rogers and Froome weren't fit and Porte was at Saxo. But in essence the race is following a similar pattern with EBH blasting it up the lower slopes of the big climbs, the difference being that they now have other quality riders to hand over to. And these riders were recruited to do exactly this job. And these riders are renowned tempo climbers unlike say Hincapie in the US Postal days.

    Point 2. The field. Quintana rode away from them, Weening kept up with them, as did Kiryenka and Zubeldia. In the Tour these guys won't be a factor in a few weeks time but all those like Nibali, Schleck etc who were getting shelled will be. And yet people think this is symptomatic of doping at Sky?

    fwiw I'm very distrustful of Froome, Rogers's past doesn't make him an obvious candidate for being mr clean. The rest? pretty much untainted I'd say and as such no more suspicious than anyone else in the peloton and a great deal less suspicious than many.
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #44 on: June 09, 2012, 23:39 »
    Agree captain. My personal opinion, thir overall performance could be suspect ( or could actually be down to the incredibly intense altitude training camps they have been in) but not convinced yesterday showed anything suspicious. None of he rides involved have exactly come out of no where. Rodgers, Froome, Porte and wiggins have all shown form before. Weening in he front group?

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  • mew

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #45 on: June 10, 2012, 00:03 »
    Good points and if this dominance continues through the Tour then I believe it will be quite suspect.  :-\ :o
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #46 on: June 10, 2012, 06:38 »
    From cineteq

    Quote
    Porte today on Col de Joux Plane 35:36. Pantani 1997 32:55 Ullrich 97 33:50
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  • Havetts

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #47 on: June 10, 2012, 09:53 »
    Then again Porte rode the Joux Plane faster than Sastre did in 2006 in the Tour stage.

    But impressive showing, its pretty odd seeing 4 sky there when theres only 9 remaining, but conclusions will only be drawn during the Tour whether this was peak form or something else.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #48 on: June 10, 2012, 09:57 »
    Then again Porte rode the Joux Plane faster than Sastre did in 2006 in the Tour stage.

    But impressive showing, its pretty odd seeing 4 sky there when theres only 9 remaining, but conclusions will only be drawn during the Tour whether this was peak form or something else.

    any idea what time they did in 2005 ?

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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #49 on: June 10, 2012, 10:02 »
    Not too convinced about a nailed on doping programme going by the numbers, so far, and the riders in that group yesterday. Do that in the Tour, and that's suspicious.

    Captain Cav also raises a fair point about the likelihood of a dingleberry becoming an eagle, that's also a case for suspicion.
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #50 on: June 10, 2012, 10:14 »
    Yeah ... its a little suspicious, but not of the 'totally impossible' scale at the moment.

    If this happens all tour long, then some questions will certainly be asked, but for now - doing it at the Dauphine ... in the circumstances - I dont think its quite that bad.

    I am super surprised at the form of Mick Rogers ... but Froome and Porte not so much.  EBH has always been great, just a matter of getting it right at the right time.

    Will certainly be interesting times to come anyway
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #51 on: June 10, 2012, 10:18 »
    Yeah ... its a little suspicious, but not of the 'totally impossible' scale at the moment.

    If this happens all tour long, then some questions will certainly be asked, but for now - doing it at the Dauphine ... in the circumstances - I dont think its quite that bad.

    I am super surprised at the form of Mick Rogers ... but Froome and Porte not so much.  EBH has always been great, just a matter of getting it right at the right time.

    Will certainly be interesting times to come anyway

    Why not Froome

    he has been okish while are Barloworld (?)

    Then sh*t - pops out of no where to podium the Vuelta

    said a had this and this virus etc but now healthy

    then sick again no form then bang

    Froome is a major What the for me

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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #52 on: June 10, 2012, 10:22 »
    Maybe, but he didn't exactly climb with an elite group yesterday. remove Wiggins and Evans and it would be a sh*t small race, that front group.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #53 on: June 10, 2012, 10:29 »
    Maybe, but he didn't exactly climb with an elite group yesterday. remove Wiggins and Evans and it would be a sh*t small race, that front group.

    Not saying your wrong because you are correct, and as the times of Marco etc show they were slower.

    but it does raise an eyebrow when out of 160 ish that 4 sky are top 10 ITT and then 3 of them are top 10 climbers.

    as I said in response to Dim fair enough waiting for the tour and if we see a UK postal express then there are questions to be asked
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #54 on: June 10, 2012, 10:32 »
    Its hard to judge when its the prep-race though.

    Those who can challenge dont want to - just want to judge their legs.  They dont want to go too deep, so they pace themselves, have a good race and drop off when they feel they need to.

    Sky had the motivation ... they wanted to test their train, put on a show of force to play the mind games with BMC and Evans. 

    For me the surprise was that BMC exploded and Cadel was left with only TJVG ....
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #55 on: June 10, 2012, 10:36 »
    Not saying your wrong because you are correct, and as the times of Marco etc show they were slower.

    but it does raise an eyebrow when out of 160 ish that 4 sky are top 10 ITT and then 3 of them are top 10 climbers.

    as I said in response to Dim fair enough waiting for the tour and if we see a UK postal express then there are questions to be asked
    Nah, I wasn't thinking of the numbers then. Just thought that the select group wasn't the best. I don't think they'll replicate it in the tour de Frace, and if they do, make a space on sky organised doping bandwagon.
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  • Tuart

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #56 on: June 11, 2012, 15:19 »
    Class/Current form of the rest of the pack has to be taken into account too. The riders in the UK Postal Group:

    Evans
    Kiryienka
    Weening
    VDB2
    Zubeldia

    Just off the back:
    Moreno
    Brajkovic
    Machado
    TJVG

    Oh yeah and Quintana off the front. All decent riders and no slouches but hardly and "elite" group of GT GC contenders, so it was a dominant display for the Dauphine and you can draw parallels to certain infamous teams but it'll be a different kettle of fish if they'll be able to do the same thing at the Tour.
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    Cobblestones

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #57 on: June 11, 2012, 18:20 »
    Wiggins had great form for most of the year winning P.-N., Romandie, Dauphine. Should he then be able to recuperate well enough during the third week?

    The sky train looked very impressive last week. Should I expect Rogers to also lead the peloton up the Pyrenees?

    Should I expect one team to credibly attempt the Green and Yellow?

    None of that would feel right.
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  • Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.

    bicing

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #58 on: June 11, 2012, 20:50 »
    Bradley Wiggins and Team Sky will absolutely dominate the Tour de France like nobody has seen in recent years.

    Why?

    He devulged his secret three days ago:

    Quote from: Bradley Wiggins
    “My coach has not been in cycling for long, he’s come from swimming, so I’ve pretty much been training like the swimmers train,” Wiggins told reporters in Bourg-en-Bresse. “I’ve been constantly training through the year, so it’s not like the traditional way for cycling, which is starting in January fat or in really bad condition, and then building, building and showing form in these races.”

    Next year, everyone will be training like swimmers.

    Tim Kerrison knows where the money is.  Once he wins the TdF with Wiggins he'll go solo. He will start offering training advice to top athletes. He will keep individual swimming suits for all his cyclists with code names on them, like the rider's dog's names.

    Tim Kerrison's other genius training secrets

    Streamline your way to success, with streamline positioning - http://www.camdenswisscottage.co.uk/site_downloads/370/FinalStreamlineyourwaytosuccessbacktobackformat%5B1%5D.pdf

    Training for race specific speed,  - http://books.google.ro/books?id=qnTDBoAxF_UC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Tim+Kerrison+swimming&source=bl&ots=BeXZK0wRbZ&sig=pWRg-zE6-BV2Sk-bdTeLGLImGp0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=N0fWT_vJMPHP4QTwvKmsAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Tim%20Kerrison%20swimming&f=false

    GreenEye Swim Analysis OR QAS Interactive Race Analysis and Video System- his software system for swimming performance - see page 8 of http://members.westnet.com.au/stringybark/tumbalong/yb2002.pdf

    the "reverse" strategy of building up speed first and later moving up distance (as opposed to the traditional swim tendency to go the distance first then work on the speed later) with sports scientist Tim Kerrison - http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/3764

    Of course marginal gains (but here they're explained) - http://israelirowingfederation.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/fisa-2011-scott-gardner2.pdf

    Nothing to learn from this, his coaching record for rowing - http://www.rowingone.com/pdf/018919.pdf



    THIS GUY'S A PROPHET
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    The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #59 on: June 12, 2012, 14:51 »


    anyone willing to discuss the , in the corner
    Ryder Hejsdal ?
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

     

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