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AG

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Re: Sky
« Reply #510 on: January 03, 2013, 00:14 »
there were some similarities - but honestly, there were similarities between liquigas and USPS for the giro ... Leaky's dominated (only difference was Basso didnt finish things off)

I dont think that should condemn them ... if we are going to suggest things, it has to be based on more evidence than just 'they dominated the race'

The Leinders thing, Rogers history, Yates and Julich's history .... those things are more of a concern in my mind.
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #511 on: January 03, 2013, 04:16 »
    Bartalucci is far dodgier than anything Leinders can muster. Being convicted and let off, something like that. Leinders is only associated to a team.
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #512 on: January 03, 2013, 04:42 »
    didnt say no one else was dodgy ... Sky certainly dont have a monopoly on that  :P
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #513 on: January 03, 2013, 04:43 »
    Bartalucci is/was a sky employee
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #514 on: January 03, 2013, 05:05 »
    oh.  didnt realise that.

    my point is still the same.  There are plenty of other dodgy doctors - on sky and elsewhere.  I dont doubt that there are other teams who are worse

    But if Sky want to continue to claim that they are the embodiment of clean cycling, and that they won the 2012 tour clean ... they have a way to go to prove that.

    Their spin and PR leaves a LOT to be desired
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #515 on: January 03, 2013, 05:17 »
    How can they though? Honest question. No PR, no spin, nothing can change that for me. Suspicion comes with success in that race or any other similar race, and that suspicion is warranted (and though the course was pee weak and the quality worse, sky still dominated). Unless there's a mass team wide doping bust in sky and all attest that an individual is clean, nobody can be beyond reproach. Even Vaughters'  claims are well... and BMC are Phonak so that's how much trust they'll get. The frogs, they're led by Europcar (the others are far more believable, but so was Schleck this year).

    They could be run by Richard Branson and their PR would still be full of holes. Some seriously mundane sky crap gets overanalysed. Like the Froome Wiggins balls a couple of weeks ago. Maybe it's the bravado they entered the scene with, maybe it's presence all over the media. I don't know.
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #516 on: January 03, 2013, 09:46 »
    people also forget

    Kimmage and Brad had issues from Garmin days

    there is a major personality thing going on from a rider I love to a rider who said I could not stay with the team so he must be guilty

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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #517 on: January 03, 2013, 10:39 »
    Knew it, but ignored it. If he let personal differences plague his writing, then that's just as dodgy for a journalist.

    Down to interpretation. Walsh said something very much the different to what Kimmage says (which for some reason didn't get a mention here). Of course, there'd be someone who says Murdoch connection. But that's honestly weak as for a person who's just been named 'journalist of the year or so' if not a news international outlet, some other will lap him up.

    Let's see, if they're doping, they're not alone. If by any chance they're clean, they'd not be alone either. I like Argos for some reason in this.
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  • kabloemski

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #518 on: January 03, 2013, 10:50 »
    I saw some tweets from Walsh, what did he have to say again ???
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  • Hey, Bart! Your epidermis is showing!

    L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #519 on: January 03, 2013, 11:00 »
    How can they though? Honest question. No PR, no spin, nothing can change that for me. Suspicion comes with success in that race or any other similar race, and that suspicion is warranted (and though the course was pee weak and the quality worse, sky still dominated). Unless there's a mass team wide doping bust in sky and all attest that an individual is clean, nobody can be beyond reproach. Even Vaughters'  claims are well... and BMC are Phonak so that's how much trust they'll get. The frogs, they're led by Europcar (the others are far more believable, but so was Schleck this year).

    They could be run by Richard Branson and their PR would still be full of holes. Some seriously mundane sky crap gets overanalysed. Like the Froome Wiggins balls a couple of weeks ago. Maybe it's the bravado they entered the scene with, maybe it's presence all over the media. I don't know.

    Ram is right on the money for me: anything and everything from Sky is going to be overanalysed. I think Kimmage - and anyone else who sat through 2012 - is right to be suspicious but undue emphasis on one team is the media equivalent of only watching cycling in July. I don't hold Kimmage responsible for that, it is the press as a whole and I would bag on the press sooner than I would Team Sky after the year we just had. The reporting malaise, like the doping malaise, is general to the sport. Picking off targets isn't the way to approach the issue but it's all hacks have ever done.

    In fact there is a significant list of other teams that fly quietly in this fabricated dawn of "Nu Cycling" as we the users on VR often point out. I am appalled to come back from holiday and find almost no noise about Katusha's World Tour "ethics" snub, not a word about Lampre quietly retiring off riders whose collective past could affect its cleaner, brighter, greensleeved future. A solid press review of Katusha is long overdue but hey, they're Russian, right? 'Nuff said.  ::)
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #520 on: January 03, 2013, 11:13 »
    absolutely larri - and ram too.

    I dont think Sky is the dodgiest around.  It gets most of the debate IMO really because they are the ones proclaiming that they are clean. 

    As for what they can do to prove that ... probably not too much at this point.  The damage has already been done.  They hired Leinders and various others with a past, Wiggo went off to the media with c's and w's, Froome has tried to explain his yo-yo'ing form with the story changing fairly often ... those things are out there, and contradict a fair amount with what they are saying.

    The issue for me is not so much their record (I am still fence sitting a fair amount), the issue is the continual "we are a shining light", "we are the epitome of clean cycling", "we are leading the peleton in bringing in a new clean era" stuff, but when the questions are ask about their actual conduct, they dont want to answer.

    As far as Katusha goes - I am pretty horrified by the WT thing.  Katusha are also on the smelly side of the fence for sure ... but then again, so are many other teams.  The politics of it all, and the subjectivity of deciding that Katusha are out for ethical reasons, but we will give a license to RSNT, Rabobank, Astana and Saxo is completely bewildering - and the cynic in me says it has a lot to do with control of the UCI.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #521 on: January 03, 2013, 12:36 »
    absolutely larri - and ram too.

    I dont think Sky is the dodgiest around.  It gets most of the debate IMO really because they are the ones proclaiming that they are clean. 

    And the ones others talk about being clean. David.millar for example in his 10 million post Armstrong interviews and pieces where he argued cycling is now clean never said anything about for example hejsedal or Evans. He always said - bradley wiggins won the tour clean. That was always his evidence for cycling being clean - sky.  Pat Mcquaid and Phil Ligget have also focused.on sky with their - cycling is clean now comments.
     David Walsh also talks about sky when asked if he believes cycling is clean now- saying he thinks and hopes but doesn't know for certain( unlike.mcquaid millar and ligget who do " Know for certain")
    Most  of the media in this country also took this line of argument of course after the Armstrong scandal  but i suppose in other countries reports on usada didst conclude with feelgood.comments about how wiggins is proof not all tour winners dope so its not as big a deal.

     there was however1 article from wiggins ghostwriter gallackhar where he said
    Quote

    You can rest assured that the Tour Directeur Christian Prudhomme, a big supporter of Wiggins who he sees as the best advertisement there is for clean cycling, will be hoping that the 2012 champion turns up in Corsica as something as other than a super-domestique.

    So while i hope gallackar as usual is making stuff up, its at least been claimed that even prudehomme sees wiggins as the Jesus of nazareth of cleanliness in sport.

    I don't recall anywhere near the same backing for sastre or Evans, both of whom have just as strong a case for being held up as pillars of clean cycling.

    So the point is that sky really are being hyped and hyped in a way that is unique in the history of sport, not just by themselves but by very prominent people not officially involved with sky as well, as the team everyone knows is clean and as paving the way for a.clean era - millar and jv don't just think sky is clean they think doping is gone for ever.

     So its natural that anyone sceptical about whether doping really is gone will begin their questions with sky. Because sky and wiggins have made themselves and have been made by others, the centre of the entire discussion  about doping.in cycling.

    So even if someones scepticism in the clean now narrative arises not from sky themselves but from say contador and piti at the vuelta, they will also think to sky and ask questions there.
     Its the flip side to al the positive coverage sky get and since we saw with armstrong how few in journalism ever question what they are told, its not a really big flip side,  just kimmage really.

    Funnilly Walsh actually explained away Contador and valverde at the vuelta by saying that the races in Spain allow doping ( though he hasn't paid any attention to the tour of Spain in a while). I wonder if he'll have a rethink about his belief that the tour is clean, if contador wins that next year.
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #522 on: January 03, 2013, 17:16 »
    And the ones others talk about being clean. David.millar for example in his 10 million post Armstrong interviews and pieces where he argued cycling is now clean never said anything about for example hejsedal or Evans. He always said - bradley wiggins won the tour clean. That was always his evidence for cycling being clean - sky.  Pat Mcquaid and Phil Ligget have also focused.on sky with their - cycling is clean now comments.
     David Walsh also talks about sky when asked if he believes cycling is clean now- saying he thinks and hopes but doesn't know for certain( unlike.mcquaid millar and ligget who do " Know for certain")
    Most  of the media in this country also took this line of argument of course after the Armstrong scandal  but i suppose in other countries reports on usada didst conclude with feelgood.comments about how wiggins is proof not all tour winners dope so its not as big a deal.

     there was however1 article from wiggins ghostwriter gallackhar where he said
    So while i hope gallackar as usual is making stuff up, its at least been claimed that even prudehomme sees wiggins as the Jesus of nazareth of cleanliness in sport.

    I don't recall anywhere near the same backing for sastre or Evans, both of whom have just as strong a case for being held up as pillars of clean cycling.

    So the point is that sky really are being hyped and hyped in a way that is unique in the history of sport, not just by themselves but by very prominent people not officially involved with sky as well, as the team everyone knows is clean and as paving the way for a.clean era - millar and jv don't just think sky is clean they think doping is gone for ever.

     So its natural that anyone sceptical about whether doping really is gone will begin their questions with sky. Because sky and wiggins have made themselves and have been made by others, the centre of the entire discussion  about doping.in cycling.

    So even if someones scepticism in the clean now narrative arises not from sky themselves but from say contador and piti at the vuelta, they will also think to sky and ask questions there.
     Its the flip side to al the positive coverage sky get and since we saw with armstrong how few in journalism ever question what they are told, its not a really big flip side,  just kimmage really.

    Funnilly Walsh actually explained away Contador and valverde at the vuelta by saying that the races in Spain allow doping ( though he hasn't paid any attention to the tour of Spain in a while). I wonder if he'll have a rethink about his belief that the tour is clean, if contador wins that next year.

    Some really good points here. Anglophone press + 2012 London Olympics + Tour winner + unusually loquacious team = massive overrepresentation of Sky.
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  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #523 on: January 04, 2013, 05:24 »
    I don't know about the media bit. If I want to see Contador or Real Madrid fawning, I'd not open a beeb or guardian newspaper but turn over to Marca. I won't go to Marca to see what Froome or Wiggins love ins. Tis but expected that an English news agency to focus on an English/GBR sportsman, so too for Australia, for India and everyone but a crapulence like Maldives. And clean winning bits, journalists follow the riders. Evans speaks nowt about doping. When he does, there'll be a press for him. Sastre, he'd be speaking against Valverde or Contador. The media won't take kindly to that, applies anywhere in the world. Don't think that there'd be a good reception if Wiggins called Tom Simpson an outright cheat... Cycling media, otoh, is though
    As I said earlier, Walsh's credibility cannot be written off just cos he writes something that we don't want to hear. If he claims there's no definite dirtiness, it's his interpretation. And I definitely have missed his Spain allows doping claim.

    About the :censoreds and w***ers. Twitter spillover, imo. Hugh Morris of the ECB- twitter for sportsmen is like machineguns to a monkey. It could be epic, but it can be a disaster.
    Wiggins couldn't handle it, Wiggins spilled over. He was only chided for a couple of months, Lee Westwood was for a year and more and to a greater extent, and he's a guy who's intelligent, funny, and with a wicked wit, he got into too many spats. He left, not flounced, just left and never let it affect his public life. Perfectly done. Wiggins failed terribly there
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  • « Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 15:38 by ram »

    Arb

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #524 on: January 20, 2013, 10:59 »
    "I've got 100% faith in what Team Sky are doing. What's disappointing is you still hear people criticise, you still have the cynics and the pessimists and those depressed people that are even questioning Wiggins' and Froome's performances. At the moment what we have is fool proof."

    http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/video/15077443598/Pat-Jonker-interview [Aus Restricted]
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  • Kvinto

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #525 on: January 20, 2013, 11:36 »
    "I've got 100% faith in what Team Sky are doing. What's disappointing is you still hear people criticise, you still have the cynics and the pessimists and those depressed people that are even questioning Wiggins' and Froome's performances. At the moment what we have is fool proof."

    “And finally the last thing I’ll say for the people who don’t believe in cycling. The cynics, the skeptics. I’m sorry for you, I’m sorry that you can’t dream big, and I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles.”  :D
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    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #526 on: January 22, 2013, 12:09 »
    Nice interview with Knees:
    http://www.christianknees.de/cms/index.php/news#english

    Quote
    And when Armstrong claims that in his opinion, 95% of the riders are doped, then I can only say: You can't always believe what he says. My best result at the Tour de France was 20th in 2009 – and I can tell you with a clear conscience, that this was a “clean performance”
    I wonder if he doped before that though?
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #527 on: January 22, 2013, 12:58 »
    Nice interview with Knees:
    http://www.christianknees.de/cms/index.php/news#english
    I wonder if he doped before that though?
    In that L'Equipe 'score' in 2010 he had a high value, 7 or so.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #528 on: January 25, 2013, 01:05 »
    Not direct, but probably best place for it to go

    Vaughters on twitter


    58m Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters
    Oh Wiggo.... While I respect your talent and believe you're clean... You forget some pretty important stuff sometimes.


    50m Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters
    Ok, let's elaborate.Since Wiggo was absolute BFF with LA in 2009 Tour, LA was in Wiggo's ear every moment about how "he should leave Garmin"
    Expand

    47m Jonathan Vaughters ‏@Vaughters
    So, am I annoyed at latest interview? Yeah. I am. I'll get over it. Btw- I've defended Wiggo more on twitter than his own mother.
    Expand


    20m, Jonathan Vaughters @ Vaughter
    Sometimes I reveal too much here. But hey, I'd rather be a bit loose than Robotic sound byte. Sorry if I peeed anyone off.
    Expand   Reply  Retweet  Favorite  More

    Also responded to some guy who accused JV of being a bitter doper and that wiggins probably didnt know about lance with
    - he knew. But i think that was then deleted.

     
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #529 on: January 25, 2013, 04:56 »
    the interview he is referring to is is where Wiggo calls Lance a "lying bastard" about being clean in 2009 + 2010

    .http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cycling/wiggins-calls-armstrong-a-lying-bastard-20130125-2dama.html

    Quote
    Wiggins, the reigning Tour de France champion, has spoken about the 2009 race when he watched Armstrong with disbelief and thought to himself: “You lying bastard”.

    :snip

    Referring to the moment in Armstrong’s interview with Oprah Winfrey where the ex-cyclist insisted he swore off banned drugs after retiring for the first time, Wiggins said: "That was the thing that upset me the most about 2009 and 2010. I thought you lying bastard. I can still remember going toe-to-toe with him, watching him and his body language. The man I saw [in the 2009 Tour, struggling] at the top of Verbier in 2009 to the man I saw on the top of Ventoux … wasn't the same bike rider.

    “Watch the videos and see the way the guy was riding. I just don't believe anything that comes out of his mouth anymore.”

    It was on the penultimate stage of the 2009 Tour, including the legendary climb of Mont Ventoux, when Armstrong gained a crucial 22-seconds on Wiggins. On the earlier summit finish at Verbier Wiggins had gained 29 seconds on Armstrong

    while I dont think that highly of Brad in general due to his past thoughts on this - its a bit of 'band wagon' stuff - I do like this now.

    At least he (and hopefully others) are starting to get angry at the ones who cheat. 

    And they should be angry. 
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #531 on: January 25, 2013, 12:37 »
    interesting - that story appears to have been removed   :rolleye
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #533 on: January 25, 2013, 15:38 »
    Vaughters tweet story back up now.
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #534 on: January 28, 2013, 11:53 »
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  • Zam

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #535 on: February 01, 2013, 09:08 »
    The Lance says "in sport you are always on record for what you've done, for what you've said, the way you've acted" every second counts.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #536 on: February 02, 2013, 23:28 »
    A very nice quote from the man himself Tim Kerrison.

    Quote
    "Our job is to improve our riders' performance, and if we do our job really well, some of thing our riders do are seen as remarkable. But remarkable performance does not correlate with doping."

    "Now more than ever, cycling's credibility is tarnished by its history. One of the things I've struggled with is that people assume that because we are doing our jobs well, people must be doping. It used to make me frustrated and angry. If your integrity is being constantly questioned because you are doing a good job, how do you feel?"

    In the Press conference Kerrison highlighted the fact that the coaches in cycling have been primarily former riders and the such who are doing things the way they have always been done and do not have significant scientific training.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #537 on: February 02, 2013, 23:36 »
    A very nice quote from the man himself Tim Kerrison.

    In the Press conference Kerrison highlighted the fact that the coaches in cycling have been primarily former riders and the such who are doing things the way they have always been done and do not have significant scientific training.

    How does he know what other teams are doing behind the scenes. As madiot said last year - we have the wind tunnels too we just dont call a press conference about it.

    Besides Lance said about Ferrari that Ferrari brought new non cycling sports science into his training and that his techniques were amazing. To ignore the doping for a sec, Lance was a guy who would do anything to win - legal and nonlegal, so i doubt that praising Ferraris sports science was totally made up. And if it wasn't totally made up, clearly sports science has played a bigger role in the sport than Bailsford and Kerrison claim.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #538 on: February 02, 2013, 23:41 »
    It was an overview of a 3 hour press conference with that being at its base. I can't find coverage of it, but I would suspect the points you raised were surely brought up.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #539 on: February 02, 2013, 23:52 »
    It was an overview of a 3 hour press conference with that being at its base. I can't find coverage of it, but I would suspect the points you raised were surely brought up.

    I dont know. Its quite rare to see journos asking questions in sport. Politics, maybe (and not US) but in sport, not usually
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