collapse


taiwan

  • Passista-Veloce
  • Domestic Rider
  • Country: 00
  • Posts: 161
  • Liked: 36
Re: Sky
« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2012, 19:35 »
IDK why Cancellara's performance or those of the favourites who lost time would raise as many eyebrows as Sky again turning up with multiple climbing domestiques who are as strong as other teams GC riders, and are all pretty much as good as they've ever been uphill (when did Porte ever do such a job for Contador? Not as if that Saxo team had an excess of mountain domestiques). And even if Canc had won the stage today, that would be for another thread really.
  • ReplyReply
  • "The whole world is run on bluff. No race, no nation, no man has any divine right to take
    advantage of others. Why allow the other fellow to bluff you?"

    ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #91 on: July 07, 2012, 19:56 »
    It started off as just Wiggins, and became Sky/Wiggins, and maybe with more Cancellara in it it will be Wiggins/Sky/Cancellara. It's only a thread in the end. WGAF? And that I'm half on topic is a success.

    About Cancellara- he's a heavyweight, he's not a climber, and he was flying past many better climbers. Kloeden, geriatric fliper, but still should be a better climber any day than Canc. Peraud, Tejay, Leipho. Surely that's as weird as four questionable yet qualified climbers controlling on a climb. 2010 is always ignored when talking about Porte, he rode before 2011 and wasn't terrible in 2010, a bit of luck or not. Cancellara was dodgy of the day for me.

    About the favourites, my point was about the supposed peaking for the third week only. That was the scope of it, and I don't think I've said dropping off is doping. Don't know where that came from.

    As for being on topic, I could half try to do some calculations and be ultra rough scientific with the times and not discuss the topic with gas and no steel, but I was too flipping happy to watch a stage on the telly that I didn't give a sh*t about the timing of the climb or some sort and will have to wait for it to be played to me.
  • ReplyReply

  • taiwan

    • Passista-Veloce
    • Domestic Rider
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 161
    • Liked: 36
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #92 on: July 07, 2012, 20:08 »
    Well if you want to make an absurd Sky-Cancellara thread then that's your lookout, I don't see much milage in it tbh. I think the idea of staying on topic is to avoid people posting irrelevant information. It might be worth a go. Why not just humour us and talk about the topic in the title?
  • ReplyReply

  • Dim

    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 8403
    • Liked: 3349
      • Velorooms
    • Awards: Race Preview of 2014Best Post 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #93 on: July 07, 2012, 20:15 »
    I think cancellara is relevant in that it shows the Sky werent actually going that mad at the front, the fact he managed to finish in front of half of his team says a lot. It certainly indicates that today was more a matter of a lot of riders riding very badly, than sky riding particularly ridiculously.
  • ReplyReply

  • Zam

    • everything and nothing.
    • Classics Winner
    • Country: re
    • Posts: 2664
    • Liked: 475
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #94 on: July 07, 2012, 20:16 »
    Ram the thing with sky is its not only today, this has been for awhile..the same guys inform. At the dauphine we were told to wait for the tdf and now we have to wait again?  ...  fabian as strange as it was, it was only today. So i dont think you can compare.
  • ReplyReply

  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #95 on: July 07, 2012, 20:19 »
    And when did I say Sky aren't dodgy now?

    Cancellara has had more than on a few occasions been strange by the same mileage. But i better stop, it obviously doesn't bode well to talk about Cancellara ;)
  • ReplyReply

  • Zam

    • everything and nothing.
    • Classics Winner
    • Country: re
    • Posts: 2664
    • Liked: 475
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #96 on: July 07, 2012, 20:22 »
    You keep saying lets wait for something more concrete..when did fabian do well in the mountains continuosly?
  • ReplyReply

  • Zam

    • everything and nothing.
    • Classics Winner
    • Country: re
    • Posts: 2664
    • Liked: 475
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #97 on: July 07, 2012, 20:23 »
    whatever. rogers  again lol
  • ReplyReply

  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #98 on: July 07, 2012, 20:26 »
    The concrete being any times available so the doubts would have some quantifiable values to it. It could be outrageous for all we know, or it could be mundane too. Nothing wrong in waiting for that.
  • ReplyReply

  • taiwan

    • Passista-Veloce
    • Domestic Rider
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 161
    • Liked: 36
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #99 on: July 07, 2012, 20:31 »
    Once upon a time Wiggins was a heavyweight rouleur/TT specialist like Cancellara. The transformation isn't quite on the same scale. It's all speculation, but if one team apparently has 3 or 4 of the strongest climbers in the race, a flag goes up. The Dauphinee was similar, you could just about call it a pattern. But it's speculation.
  • ReplyReply

  • Zam

    • everything and nothing.
    • Classics Winner
    • Country: re
    • Posts: 2664
    • Liked: 475
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #100 on: July 07, 2012, 20:34 »
    conclusion - eyebows raised?   ;D
  • ReplyReply

  • Anthony Moan

    • Ahab the Arab
    • Road Captain
    • Country: cv
    • Posts: 2043
    • Liked: 889
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #101 on: July 07, 2012, 20:51 »
    This is Sky, lean mean blue machine 8)
    Note at 3:20 that yellow Seat driver throwing a water bottle, idiot, Wiggins go mad and starting to chase him down ;D, my man. Go Wiggins!!!
  • ReplyReply
  • Reverend Fred Saves!!

    benotti69

    • Road Captain
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 1697
    • Liked: 214
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #102 on: July 07, 2012, 22:20 »
    basso menchov never like these types of finishes too many changes in gradient etc

    same pace riders

    some riders suffer 1st day in the small ring

    Piti had a flat
    JVDB2 Flat

    here is the thing Froome and Wiggo are same pace riders ie same as Menchov and Basso did not suffer

    something strange is occurring

    there are 2 answers and a combination

    old dopers are no longer doping or to the same level

    Sky have a great program

    or both  ;)


    This finish should have Evans all over it but suddenly Froome is the guy  ::)  and this is after setting the pace for 3ish km

    I think this is the marginal gains we are talking about with sky.

    I reckon they have worked out what is the acceptable limit of performance enhancement without going over the 6.2w/kg level that Aldo Sassi set. This is the marginal gains they have been perfecting, getting their TdF team to that and being able to keep it at that.

    Whether it is with traditional PEDs or new ones. I thin they have honed it to as near as perfection for keeping it just under anti-doping and science of power meter performances. Ie make it look real and keep the numbers about as real as possible.

    The others are not doping the normal levels. Why? flip only knows!
  • ReplyReply
  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 30478
    • Liked: 10274
    • Awards: Best Avatar of 2016Reigning Spring Classics Prediction ChampJSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #103 on: July 07, 2012, 22:23 »
    not that this is fact or anything but is shows the length Sky have gone too

    setting watts for climbs

    Asked if he was surprised that none of his rivals had attacked, Wiggins said: "I was little bit. I knew I was dictating the pace and that I wanted to keep it high threshold and not go too much into the red and I knew that if someone wanted to attack off that pace they’d have to be going quite a bit more, which I know is not really sustainable if we’re riding at 470 to 480 Watts. Someone is going to have to go a lot harder to sustain that. As long as we gauge it like that I knew we’d be alright."
  • ReplyReply
  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    usedtobefast

    • Domestique
    • Country: us
    • Posts: 732
    • Liked: 77
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #104 on: July 07, 2012, 22:55 »
    I think cancellara is relevant in that it shows the Sky werent actually going that mad at the front, the fact he managed to finish in front of half of his team says a lot. It certainly indicates that today was more a matter of a lot of riders riding very badly, than sky riding particularly ridiculously.

    aw come on Dave. Sky's program is getting results, just like other teams from the past. don't you think? we need a holding your nose emoticon, yes?
  • ReplyReply

  • Dim

    • Grand Tour Winner
    • *
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 8403
    • Liked: 3349
      • Velorooms
    • Awards: Race Preview of 2014Best Post 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #105 on: July 08, 2012, 00:46 »
    aw come on Dave. Sky's program is getting results, just like other teams from the past. don't you think? we need a holding your nose emoticon, yes?

    im not going to comment on wether i think sky are doping or not, that said, in the event of a positive for the team there is a holding page on teamskyfans which would immediately be put in place suspending all activity on the site.

    However, i think todays stage is being blown out of all proportion, it was a short steep climb, not a 20km alpine climb that was preceded by a couple of cat 1's, the performance of some of the so called clmbers was bizarre to say the least, and we saw the likes of Porte and Froome who are currently accepted as decent talents grinding out the pace. But when we are seeing the likes of Cancellara making mincemeat out of so called climbers I think we have to question the pathetic performance of some of the "contenders" when putting it in perspective.
  • ReplyReply

  • The Hitch

    • Winner 2012 Tour de France prediction game
    • Road Captain
    • Country: pl
    • Posts: 2473
    • Liked: 841
    • Awards: 2013 Annual Prediction Game2013 CQ Ranking Vuelta Game Post of the Year 2013Race Preview of the Year 2013
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #106 on: July 08, 2012, 01:07 »
    Very much likely, but rich coming from a Contador innocent believer.

    When riding for Contador, the guy who was shredding the heads of state to pieces today until only 8 remained,  was doing more or less  the same thing only to the autobus 20 minutes back.

    Not an attack on your point,  just a follow on observation of how much more the pee sky are taking than Contador did.
  • ReplyReply
  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Slow Rider

    • Classics Winner
    • Country: nl
    • Posts: 2591
    • Liked: 2454
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #107 on: July 08, 2012, 01:26 »
    Is Sky's performace really that out of this world? Froome has shown this kind of gradients is what he excels at. Beating Evans is a surprise, sure, but Evans seemed to have mistimed his jump completely imo.

    And in Wiggins case, he was barely 10 seconds ahead of Taaramae.. I mean, he did good, but let's not jump to conclusions here. If both Wiggins and Froome continue riding this way and dropping everyone straight off their wheels, then that would be suspicious. But this one stage, not sure how much can be concluded from this. Evans and Nibali will only improve over time, while Wiggins seemed to have a higher form entering the Tour, so it only makes sense he is at a relative peak form now while the other two will improve further.

    We'll see what happens over the next few days. I'm not going to call anyone a doper just yet.
  • ReplyReply

  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #108 on: July 08, 2012, 02:15 »
    When riding for Contador, the guy who was shredding the heads of state to pieces today until only 8 remained,  was doing more or less  the same thing only to the autobus 20 minutes back.

    Not an attack on your point,  just a follow on observation of how much more the pee sky are taking than Contador did.
    No worries, and I'm not blind to it, but it's not like he was flying from day one in his career, and that he ripped everyone unassisted.

    Also, it's not like Sandy and Contador would've been in the field of five or so if they had been in top form, if Taaramae of all could hang on.
  • ReplyReply

  • AG

    • Monument Winner
    • *
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 6023
    • Liked: 3170
    • Awards: Winner, 2013 National Championships prediction gameFan of the Year 2013
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #109 on: July 08, 2012, 03:32 »
    Ok - having thought about it for a little while ...

    the performances

    Wiggins - while I did expect Evans to try and put some time into him on that final steep ramp, its not super surprising that Wiggo could stay with him.   Nothing much OTT about Wiggins today.   

    Overall - his performace over the last 4 years is extraordinary ... but he was a top class track cyclist so obviously has some talent on a bike, and has the dedication to make the most of it.  Its not outside the realms of probability that every now and then someone will come to the top in this manner ...

    Froome - today he had a good day.  If he does this on the high mountains (Vuelta style) I might ask some questions, but he is obviously a talented guy, so this kind of performance isnt over the top from him.

    Porte - has shown flashes of brilliance before, so not really above and beyond to think he would preform at this Tour.  He gave it his all and was riding for the bottom of the mountain, not the top ... so dropping off guys who were riding for the top isnt unexpected.

    Rogers - he is the only one really that I find his performances suspect.  His career trajectory is pretty suss ...

    EBH - totally expected.  nothing new there

    A lot about yesterday was about who wasnt there and didnt perform rather than who was left
    - no contador
    - no andy schleck
    - samu has not been the same since his fall in the Dauphine.  His prologue shows that
    - valverde had a puncture at 10kms to go
    - JVDB had a mechanical at 20 kms to go
    - Gesink, Frank Schleck, Brajkovic, Dan Martin all hurt yesterday and obviously affected
    - rodriquez and hesjedal both out of the race

    - Menchov ... bit surprising he dropped off
    - Rolland - he only dropped off at the very end
    - TJVG - I would have expected to have stayed the distance ... this isnt an actual mountain after all ...
    - Nibbles stayed .. couldnt attack at the end but didnt lose much
    - I was surprised that Jelle Vanendert wasnt there ... but maybe he was trying to help JVDB get back

    Really ... this was more about some of the others than about Sky.





  • ReplyReply

  • jobiwan

    • 2nd Year Pro
    • Country: us
    • Posts: 359
    • Liked: 108
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #110 on: July 08, 2012, 03:39 »
    I personally don't know. It's not impossible that it was a completely clean performance; it's just that the way cycling goes you have to question almost everything.

    I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but the sight of one team just drilling almost everyone else off the front just brings back bad memories.
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 30478
    • Liked: 10274
    • Awards: Best Avatar of 2016Reigning Spring Classics Prediction ChampJSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #111 on: July 08, 2012, 07:01 »
    not sure where this goes so in here

    only a blind person could not see the innuendo by the author

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-froome-was-the-most-impressive

    Quote
    In recent seasons, the opening mountaintop finish of the Tour has tended to be a rather tentative affair, and beforehand Nibali said that he anticipated more of the same this time around. Instead, in an echo of the extremes of the Lance Armstrong era, Sky set to work from the foot of the climb and scattered the peloton to the four winds.

     ::)

    Froome most impressive to Nibbles as well
  • ReplyReply

  • Damiano Machiavelli

    • Domestic Rider
    • Posts: 55
    • Liked: 18
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #112 on: July 08, 2012, 07:14 »
    My take is, Sky's dodgy, but let's wait for something more concrete, or even sandy, maybe some figures about times?

    The figures are in.


  • ReplyReply
  • Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the Earth quakes and the poison arrows fall from the sky and the pillars of heaven shake. Yeah.  Jack just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Gimmie your best shot, pal, I can take it."

    flicker2.0

    • 2nd Year Pro
    • Posts: 351
    • Liked: 21
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #113 on: July 08, 2012, 07:17 »
    Hagan, Porte, Wiggins, were believably talented today. Froome, Mick, ET. Not that talented, riding above their capabilities, shades of T Mobile.
  • ReplyReply

  • just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 30478
    • Liked: 10274
    • Awards: Best Avatar of 2016Reigning Spring Classics Prediction ChampJSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #114 on: July 08, 2012, 08:08 »
    The figures are in.



    where do these come figures come from ?
  • ReplyReply

  • ram

    Re: Sky
    « Reply #115 on: July 08, 2012, 08:13 »
    The figures are in.



    Fair enough. Source?
  • ReplyReply

  • L'arri

    • Is on Dr Search's Green and Grey Diet
    • Monument Winner
    • *
    • Country: be
    • Posts: 7492
    • Liked: 5647
    • Dopeology.org @DopeologyDotOrg @L_arriviste
      • Dopeology.org
    • Awards: Post of the year 2015Best Opening Post 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #116 on: July 08, 2012, 08:27 »
    AG: yes, Vanendert dropped back (way too late) to help out that filthy-mouthed yokel VDB. Belgian francophone commentary lamented Lotto's decisionmaking but the fact was that, apart from protected Vanendert and a token Adam Hansen, Lotto was all out of riders.

    The most significant, indisputable fact in this thread so far is that Teamskyfans has a nuclear contingency plan. Loving Dim for that display of meticulous webmastering. ;D
  • ReplyReply
  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon

    Gravel Rash

    • Domestic Rider
    • Country: au
    • Posts: 177
    • Liked: 6
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #117 on: July 08, 2012, 12:04 »
    Porte and Rogers tearing the peloton apart in the TDF. That's lol worthy.
  • ReplyReply

  • froome19

    • Classics Winner
    • Country: gb
    • Posts: 4926
    • Liked: 2029
    • Awards: 2015 National Championships Prediction Game Champion
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #118 on: July 08, 2012, 12:08 »
    Copied from the Shoutbox:

    Firstly the accusations from the clinic all seem to be a bit wishful and I dont think any of them have a strong enough basis. Also it doesnt really seem to be part of the British culture to have widespread doping and I dont see who high up would have originally introduced it to the team, a lot of these British riders are very against it and I cant imagine they wouldnt speak out and leave if they realised what was going on even if Wiggins, Froome etc were involved. Also Sky's transparency makes it seem unlikely but of course it can be gotten over. Yet on the other hand the perfomances of the Sky riders are pretty unrealistic and it does seem strange, is it due to the marginal gains and training which is so meticulously planned and the new techniques by guys like Kerrison. It could possibly be because logically if you focus on everything then there is no reason a rider shouldnt be on top form. At the same time is seems like Sky riders are doing a bit better than even that and that is where my doubts like my rational brain seems to be contradicting itself but the performance yesterday certainly didnt seem realistic and so I would say that there is a possibility of doping. Concerning Froome I am not sure he would be good evidence for that though because of his parasite disease we never really saw his true potential and now we do seem to be seeing it now that he is rid of the disease and he is up to top form
  • ReplyReply
  • RIP Keith

    just some guy

    • Fourth Generation humanoid bot
    • Hall of Fame'r
    • Country: 00
    • Posts: 30478
    • Liked: 10274
    • Awards: Best Avatar of 2016Reigning Spring Classics Prediction ChampJSG News Filter Award 2014Poster of 2014Thread of the Year 2013Most Helpful Member 2013Art of Brevity 2012Most helpful member 2012Best member of staff 2012
    Re: Sky
    « Reply #119 on: July 08, 2012, 12:12 »
    I asked Froome the ? in the shoutbox

    hence the thankyou  for answering my question I would like to note
  • ReplyReply

  •  

    * Dark Side Chatbox

    Sorry, this shoutbox does not exist.


    Top
    Back to top