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just some guy

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Re: Sky
« Reply #990 on: October 11, 2013, 09:40 »


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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    Jimmythecuckoo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #991 on: October 11, 2013, 10:10 »
    Lance link worked with Froome and Porte?

    Wow.
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  • The fens are just West West Flanders really...

    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #992 on: October 11, 2013, 10:12 »
    Tylers book also confirmed that Philippe Maire was "motoman".

    Didnt know he worked with Froome and Porte though  :o   That isnt a good look for 'zero tolerance' Sky    :shh
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #993 on: October 11, 2013, 10:29 »
    Consider this....

    Who would be left in the peloton, and in the support teams ,if everyone who had any connection with doping, however tenuous, were removed?

    Frankly, I'd be amazed if there was anybody left.

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  • "You can't handle the truth"

    Colonel Nathan R Jessup

    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #994 on: October 11, 2013, 10:31 »
    umm - you dont think there are any other bike mechanics in Monaco?

    seriously?

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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #995 on: October 11, 2013, 10:37 »
    umm - you dont think there are any other bike mechanics in Monaco?

    seriously?
    http://www.annuairedemonaco.net/sites/Monaco_Bike_Pro/page/Magasin-de-Cycle-a-Monaco--Monaco-Bike-Pro.html

    Bad reputation this shop.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #996 on: October 11, 2013, 10:43 »
    I think the major thing here is Yates and the BS from Sky and him about not knowing or seeing anything.

    but he retired for health reasons, and then slags off the team saying no one knows about bike racing there

    it is dripping off the walls there is that much of it.

    But no one asks any more Yates , Knaven etc etc etc etc
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #997 on: October 11, 2013, 10:45 »
    umm - you dont think there are any other bike mechanics in Monaco?

    seriously?

    If I was running a top level team, and recruiting support staff, I would be looking for somebody with experience of the exact job I wanted them to do, not some numpty from a backstreet cycle shop.

    Having 'experience' of the world of pro cycling is likely to mean having 'experience' or contact, however tenuous, with doping...certainly in the 90's and early 00's.

    It wasn't exactly a secret. Everyone knew. Everyone was complicit in that knowledge. Some were actively complicit, who they were may be harder to ascertain.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #998 on: October 11, 2013, 10:48 »
    If I was running a top level team, and recruiting support staff, I would be looking for somebody with experience of the exact job I wanted them to do, not some numpty from a backstreet cycle shop.

    Having 'experience' of the world of pro cycling is likely to mean having 'experience' or contact, however tenuous, with doping...certainly in the 90's and early 00's.

    It wasn't exactly a secret. Everyone knew. Everyone was complicit in that knowledge. Some were actively complicit, who they were may be harder to ascertain.

    how do you know he is good ?

    My memory , all we know was he did Gardening and odd jobs for LA and was a PED mule , and wanted to open a Bike shop so was using LA to get contacts

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  • taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #999 on: October 11, 2013, 11:08 »
    Just gets harder not to conclude that Sky is reheated USPS.
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  • "The whole world is run on bluff. No race, no nation, no man has any divine right to take
    advantage of others. Why allow the other fellow to bluff you?"

    benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1000 on: October 11, 2013, 11:53 »
    If I was running a top level team, and recruiting support staff, I would be looking for somebody with experience of the exact job I wanted them to do, not some numpty from a backstreet cycle shop.

    Having 'experience' of the world of pro cycling is likely to mean having 'experience' or contact, however tenuous, with doping...certainly in the 90's and early 00's.

    It wasn't exactly a secret. Everyone knew. Everyone was complicit in that knowledge. Some were actively complicit, who they were may be harder to ascertain.

    If i was running a top bike squad that was clean, i wouldn't be using anyone like 'motoman' whose association with USPS is well known and not for fixing bikes.


    Another black mark against Sky and another crack in their so called clean team image.
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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1001 on: October 11, 2013, 11:56 »
    how do you know he is good ?

    My memory , all we know was he did Gardening and odd jobs for LA and was a PED mule , and wanted to open a Bike shop so was using LA to get contacts

    Wasn't talking specifically about motoman, but in general. But wrt to motoman, I guess it's about contacts.  "Who do you know that can do odd jobs" etc.

    I seriously doubt that Brailsford said "Who do you know who can ferry blood bags about?" and Yates said "oh, motoman. He's the guy we all know about that ferried Lance's bags"

    More likely they were mates and Yates wanted to do a favour for a mate.

    I don't know if Brailsford knew from the outset when he said he wanted clean people that he would be employing people with a past. If he didn't, it certainly bit him on the arse. Maybe he did and he's totally cynical, but it isn't impossible that he's discovered that hes in a barrel and all the apples are tainted.

    ...which is why the full truth must come out so that this whole parallel universe can end
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1002 on: October 11, 2013, 12:02 »
    Not all the apples are tainted. There are orchards that have never been near the pro scene. But Brailsford for all his talk went to the barrel that they all feed from.

    Sky said they wanted to win the TdF in 5 years.

    That gave them plenty of time to find people who were not involved in doping. Plenty and time to train their own staff.

    Sky's excuses are not believable.

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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1003 on: October 11, 2013, 12:11 »
    If i was running a top bike squad that was clean, i wouldn't be using anyone like 'motoman' whose association with USPS is well known and not for fixing bikes.


    Another black mark against Sky and another crack in their so called clean team image.

    I'd guess that 'Motoman' isn't motoman's actual name, nor that he used it as a name on his application form for Sky. I doubt also that in the 'prior experience' section he wrote 'transporting blood bags for USPS'.

    If Sky employing him after his actual name had been linked to the motoman moniker then Id be in full agreement, but as it stands I don't know when he was employed by Sky, if indeed he was, nor do I know what the circumstances of his employment were.

    We know Yates is pretty whiffy, but then Id take a stab that every DS who is a former pro probably is too.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1004 on: October 11, 2013, 12:15 »
    Not all the apples are tainted. There are orchards that have never been near the pro scene. But Brailsford for all his talk went to the barrel that they all feed from.

    Sky said they wanted to win the TdF in 5 years.

    That gave them plenty of time to find people who were not involved in doping. Plenty and time to train their own staff.

    Sky's excuses are not believable.

    All that you say is possible.

    I've not made my mind up yet.
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1005 on: October 11, 2013, 12:21 »
    Let us clear up what the article actually said:
    Quote
    He does possess, nevertheless, a long and intriguing story detailing his days as a riding partner of Armstrong and a long friendship with Yates, whom he describes as “my best friend”. He and Yates are so close that he spent last New Year at Yates’s home in Sussex.

    He also says that Yates previously used his services as a bike mechanic and that other locally based professional riders, such as Philippe Gilbert, the world champion from Belgium, still do. In recent years, Team Sky have built a stronghold in Nice and Monaco and many of their riders have begun to base themselves nearby. And, Maire said, Yates used to take them to Stars ’n’ Bikes to have their bikes serviced, too.

    Maire says that “Froome and Porte came here” but he insists that this is not unusual. “Eighty per cent of the riders who live in Nice still use me,” he says. “They come to say ‘bonjour’ and get help with mechanical problems. They know me because I’m a good mechanic, not because of anything else.”

    Since last autumn, when Hamilton’s book was published and Yates stopped working for Sky, Froome and Porte have not been back. Why? Maire believes it was a policy decision taken by the team principal, Sir Dave Brailsford, in October, when Sky went to great lengths to cut ties with any relationship that might be connected to doping.

    “After all the fuss about Sean being with me, Brailsford banned any contact,” Maire says. “That’s another story that makes me angry. Sean brought some Sky riders here; they came here to get adjustments made.”

    He says, specifically, that he helped them with “O-rings” — a novel oval-shaped front chain ring they used.
    That doesn't sound to me like Philippe Maire, who denies being Motorman (but I don't believe him) was employed by Sky.

    He fixed Froome's and Porte's O-rings for a while until he was banned by Brailsford.
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1006 on: October 11, 2013, 12:24 »
    Let us clear up what the article actually said:That doesn't sound to me like Philippe Maire, who denies being Motorman (but I don't believe him) was employed by Sky.

    He fixed Froome's and Porte's O-rings for a while until he was banned by Brailsford.

    As I said it is more about what Yates knows and what Sky and him have said

    Odd that Gilbert was mentioned as BMC have built a service course for him, so might have been a few years ago
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1007 on: October 11, 2013, 12:26 »
    I'd guess that 'Motoman' isn't motoman's actual name, nor that he used it as a name on his application form for Sky. I doubt also that in the 'prior experience' section he wrote 'transporting blood bags for USPS'.

    If Sky employing him after his actual name had been linked to the motoman moniker then Id be in full agreement, but as it stands I don't know when he was employed by Sky, if indeed he was, nor do I know what the circumstances of his employment were.

    We know Yates is pretty whiffy, but then Id take a stab that every DS who is a former pro probably is too.

    motoman = philippe maire

    Yep i agree that every DS who is a former pro is 'pretty whiffy'. It is why nothing in the sport has changed.
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1008 on: October 11, 2013, 12:27 »
    Let us clear up what the article actually said:That doesn't sound to me like Philippe Maire, who denies being Motorman (but I don't believe him) was employed by Sky.

    He fixed Froome's and Porte's O-rings for a while until he was banned by Brailsford.

    Fixing O rings is a euphemism  :shh

    edit:my spellcheck is doping again :P
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  • « Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 12:56 by benotti69 »

    Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1009 on: October 11, 2013, 12:47 »
    motoman = philippe maire

    Yes, we know that now, but we only know it after the exposure in Hamiltons book. Hamiltons book came out last year....all this stuff predates that.

    Besides, Keith's informative post makes all this irrelevant. You are filling in gaps and making assumptions yourself to fit your narrative that you have already decided upon and as Keith points out it turns out you are wrong about the gaps.

    Now, you might be right when you say that Sky are a bunch of cheating dopers, you might be! I'd give it 50-50 odds.

    But if you are right it is not as a result of the evidence you are putting forward here, which as Keith says, is flawed.

    Please don't take this as some kind of inflammatory personal dig at you, it isn't. But given that this conversation you and I are having will ultimately have no effect at all upon the thing we are discussing, we might as well have a bit of balance, and that includes not rushing to judgement when we are not in full receipt of the facts.

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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1010 on: October 11, 2013, 12:59 »
    I made my judgement a long time ago about a team that looks like a duck and walks like a duck.

    I have not seen anything in the sport till now to make me believe that there has been a real change from a culture of doping to one of teams doing their utmost to race clean. Maybe Cookson's appointment will change all that, but i will wait to see what he does and how that then effects the racing.

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  • Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1011 on: October 11, 2013, 13:29 »
    It is a bit silly to make assumptions about Motoman and Sky, it is funny as hell though  :evil:
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1012 on: October 11, 2013, 13:47 »
    It is a bit silly to make assumptions about Motoman and Sky, it is funny as hell though  :evil:

    I bet Freddy Viaene over at BMC is laughing his socks off.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Claudio Cappuccino

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1013 on: October 11, 2013, 14:27 »
    I bet Freddy Viaene over at BMC is laughing his socks off.
    Freddy is a great comedian so I think you might be right there.
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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1014 on: October 11, 2013, 16:28 »
    Come on people, you're really overdoing it now... Yates brought some people to a mechanic that used to drive around doping for Armstrong. So what? It's not a doctor, he does not have any technical knowledge of how to dope, so unless he fixes the bikes to have a special compartment Porte can use to hide a syringe in I don't see how this in any way relates to doping.

    Just looking for reasons to hate Sky now.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1015 on: October 11, 2013, 19:29 »
    This is frankly idiotic.

    The article is very clear. Yates took Froome and Porte to Maires shop to have their bikes serviced. Gilbert also takes his bike to his shop to get serviced. There is no suggestion that hes been riding around France with epo for half the peloton.
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  • taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1016 on: October 11, 2013, 20:58 »
    Come on people, you're really overdoing it now... Yates brought some people to a mechanic that used to drive around doping for Armstrong. So what? It's not a doctor, he does not have any technical knowledge of how to dope, so unless he fixes the bikes to have a special compartment Porte can use to hide a syringe in I don't see how this in any way relates to doping.

    Just looking for reasons to hate Sky now.
    To be fair he could be supplying. Anyway it's just that instead of taking their bikes to the LBS or a Sky employee, they have to go to the special mechanic who used to ferry LA's blood around. Why? Just reaffirms that darkside figures were in the fold.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1017 on: October 11, 2013, 21:04 »
    To be fair he could be supplying. Anyway it's just that instead of taking their bikes to the LBS or a Sky employee, they have to go to the special mechanic who used to ferry LA's blood around. Why? Just reaffirms that darkside figures were in the fold.

    Who happened to be a LBS, if the sky mechanics are on teh road or in Belgium how do they take their bike from Southern France to the mechanic?
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  • taiwan

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1018 on: October 11, 2013, 21:13 »
    He's not the only bike shop in the South of France. The reason riders are going there is likely to be his generally being well connected in the pro scene - because he was motoman.
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #1019 on: October 11, 2013, 21:16 »
    Who fired Sean Yates?

    Answer. No-one. He retired.

    This is clear in his autobiography.

    Quote
    'You know what, Dave? I've had it. I'm done with it. All this bullsh*t. If I have to take a walk, I'll walk'
    <rant on internet forums, twitter>
    Dave seemed taken aback, and asked me if I meant I actually wanted to leave.
    'Retire. I'm going to retire'

    Now what caused this outburst?
    Quote
    It seemed to me that Dave had something on his mind, something that was troubling him. After a pause, he told me that he was finding it more and more difficult to protect me from the fallout from the stories about Lance. He said he was constantly having to justify my presence on the team.
    So it seems to me that either:
    I) Dave Brailsford was making it up and was hoping that Sean Yates would admit, thereby avoiding confrontation; or
    II) The only people who could put pressure on Dave Brailsford was the Team Sky Board of Directors which is packed full of experienced executives from BSkyB not cycling experts. Someone on the BoD, which includes the BskyB CFO and guy in charge of Regulatory Affairs and Strategy, will have got an underling to read the USADA report and they will have been livid at Michael Barry and had massive alarm bells ringing at the mention of Michael Rogers and picture of Yates with Motorman and the mention of Bobby Julich.

    I honestly believe it was the BoD putting pressure on Brailsford to clean up shop that led to the inevitable leaving of a few.

    I also think that they didn't go beyond the USADA report or else there would have massive pressure on Servais Knaven.

    Stephen de Jongh probably could have gotten away with it, but fair play to him - he did the right thing and confessed.
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