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benotti69

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Re: Sky
« Reply #750 on: June 13, 2013, 12:48 »
But is your response the same everytime someone wins a WT event and they're not on the team of one the Axis of Evil? If I try and find a thread for Dan Martin after Catalunya, will I find it?

Where did i say axis of evil teams. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Firstly, if they all use "substances", then none of these performances would be out of the ordinary, by your expectations anyway, so why bring it up for a specific rider? Porte hasn't improved "dramatically", that is what the last page a bit has been discussing. He's shown signs from his very first GT. Only now that he's at Sky and riding well are people taking creative liberties with their eulogising, its the same with Chris Froome, who apparently didn't exist before 2011, yet a simple google search would prove otherwise. Again, the connections mean nothing. Otherwise, I can just as equally say "McGee is a clean DS, therefore Porte must be clean". A link to a former doper/doctor/DS does not equal proof that a rider is doping.

It is a dirty sport, always was with exceptions. I have not seen a change. I hear Garmin and Sky spouting their cleanliness but other teams are not, yet clean teams are beating teams that have no spin about being clean.

Froome did nothing before Vuelta 2011. Sky were about to let him go. JV was not interested either, then boom, Froome!

Porte, doing the magical climbing TT combo. Dont believe it. I cant prove anything. But these teams are not showing us how it is done!

I didn't take you for an evangelical! You must be the cycling forum version of a Jehovah Witness. Pity I don't see any philistines about.
Dumb comment.
After Festina, the Peloton sped up. After the LA era, has the same thing happened? It it simplification and pigeon-holing to just say that "it's just the same". That's a cop out.

No they didn't. Look at Pantani. Look at what others were doing. Obviously in France teams turned up cleanish, but lots have dispelled that.

As for pigeon holing, show me the clean pigeon hole?

The UCI, is another kettle of fish, there's plenty of problems there that need to be razed, still doesn't mean anything about Porte. Testing - what was all this discussion about a new EPO test then? If anti-doping is falling by the way side, why are there riders still being caught? Make up your mind. If they didn't catch anyone, how is that proof that cycling is clean? That's the otherside of the coin to what you're assuming.

Why are UCI catching the likes of Di Luca, Santabromgio, Frei, and second rate cyclists? It is to the UCI's advantage to be able to catch cheats, it helps them threaten teams and I have no doubt that they solicit payments to keep positives quiet. It worked for Armstrong for a long time, why not others?

You're just falling down a slippery slope, you're assuming that at the moment, every rider is at their peak, that the known-dopers are on a full dosage. There are a million variances in racing to begin with. Where do you stop then? You could keep going down the list and then start questioning why 100 riders are climbing better than XY ex-doper. It's inane.

The sport is a doping cesspit. Where to start believing performances is the question? Since none of the teams wish to provide transparency into how they acheve their wins, why believe they do it au natural? I dont. Remember Brailsford said they were going to show everyone how they do it clean, total transparency, ZTP, and the whole hog, well that went out the window pretty quickly didn't it? Now we have to take Froome, Porte and Woggin's performances in the same manner as before, believe what you see because the team tells us, no failed test yadayadayadayadayada............

Without any sort of proof, I don't no believe that 100% of the peloton is doping. As such, aside from the normal level of cynicism and risk, aside from facepalming over a few incidents (eg tour of turkey), then I won't believe without actual proof and not innuendo, that a rider has any more chance of being a doper than any other.

I do not believe that the peloton is 100% doping but the top 50-100 are probably doping. Lots of teams dont have the cash to dope a squad of 25-30 riders. Other teams are keeping things more secretive. There has been a change but in the modus of managing doping not in riding clean.

I dont care to wait for proofs or clean riding. I think we would know if we saw a clean peloton. I dont see it.

Well done you for believing in miracles and unicorns, just remember that the bells were attached to unicorns by the likes of Leinders, Yates, Jullich and others of such high cleanliness.
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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #751 on: June 13, 2013, 14:13 »
    This is what I don't get.

    2010: Neo-pro that finishes top 10 in the Giro and wins white
    2011: Becomes Bertie's bitch and focuses year round on the TT
    2012: Focuses on his climbing and becomes a super-dom in the Wiggins-train
    2013: Starts winning one-week races for himself

    I don't get what is absolutely unnatural about that. Nor can I fathom what people are exactly looking for as to what is acceptable "development". I don't know if its personal bias, confirmation bias or what but come on, he's no Santambrogio going from an obscure domestique to top climber in 6 months. For example, if he was Colombian, he'd be lauded as a natural talent finally delivering on his potential and no eyelids raised.

    Sorry, that was just a typo. I meant to say his development did not seem unnatural to me. I was agreeing with you in that post, to say his development didn't seem natural would be illogical there.
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  • Capt_Cavman

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #752 on: June 14, 2013, 10:27 »
    So you're saying you can't judge if someone is doping due to performance alone, because ? 

    So by that logic,  you can't defend someone regarding doping because
    No-one's arguing that point. 'They cycle professionally therefore there is a likelihood they dope' isn't a controversial statement.

    What is controversial is whether Team Sky deserve the level of abuse they receive from certain members and whether the rationale behind this abuse has any merit.
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  • kabloemski

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #753 on: June 14, 2013, 12:17 »
    What is controversial is whether Team Sky deserve the level of abuse they receive from certain members and whether the rationale behind this abuse has any merit.

    What is controversial is whether ANY TEAM deserves the level of abuse they receive from certain members and whether the rationale behind this abuse has any merit.

    And none of you know for sure if and how to establish properly if the abuse has any merit - THAT'S THE PROBLEM IN PRO CYCLING. And these sort of posts are just one peeing contest after the other.

    BORING!
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    AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #754 on: June 14, 2013, 12:45 »
    I don't think that any team deserves any ABUSE.

    Does sky deserve this kind of analysis?  Well, this is the dark side, so naturally enough it's going to focus on that.

    Sky in particular do seem to be subject to a much higher degree of scrutiny than say Movistar or saxobank ... But I think the reason for that is 3 fold

    1- sky's over the top media sh*te and zero tolerance policy .. And the obvious disregarding of that when it suits them. IMO  If you set yourself above all others, and proclaim yourself  better than everyone else, then  breach your own standards, you certainly deserve some questions and criticism.

    2- sky's success.  Any team with the kind of success that sky has experienced the last 2years is bound to get more attention than one floundering with no wins. It happened to opqs last spring, to Astana in the classics ... Strong teams (as opposed to just one strong rider) seem to bring allegations.   I find that sad - that any success brings such skepticism to fans .... But sad that this is due to the history of our sport and how that kind of success has been achieved in the past.    I don't think that a team should be abused or questioned simply due to success. But it's something that successful teams unfortunately will have to get used to, as I don't think it's going away.

    3- doubt.  The reason it gets discussed more in relation to sky than Movistar for example, is that people DO have doubts about sky. There is questions in people's minds that they haven't necessarily formed opinions about. In the case of many of the other teams ... There simply isn't that doubt. People have already decided, and no one argues about whether or not valverde (for example)  is doping or not.   There are lots who do believe that sky (or some of sky) are clean.

    For me, that's actually a posative sign. After everything we have been through as a sport, that we can still have some faith (or some of us can) is a start.

    At the end of the day though, I don't understand the abuse or 'sky hate' for want of a better  word.   (Not that we have had too much of that here .. a little but not the extent of twitter and stuff). Most of us here support riders who are doped or who have in the past. Looking at the 'why don't I like chris froome' thread - many are going to support contractor over froome. Even if you think froome is doped, it's Minot like contractor is clean ... So I don't get that.    It's a puzzle.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #755 on: June 14, 2013, 16:03 »
    2- sky's success.  Any team with the kind of success that sky has experienced the last 2years is bound to get more attention than one floundering with no wins. It happened to opqs last spring, to Astana in the classics ... Strong teams (as opposed to just one strong rider) seem to bring allegations.   I find that sad - that any success brings such skepticism to fans .... But sad that this is due to the history of our sport and how that kind of success has been achieved in the past.    I don't think that a team should be abused or questioned simply due to success. But it's something that successful teams unfortunately will have to get used to, as I don't think it's going away.


    The OPQS thing i would disagree with. When it comes down to in a tiny handful of people questioned OPQS and more specifically Ibarguren Taus.
    Myself, Jose Been (Who got an incredible amount of sh*t for even mentioning it), Gazetta did one article, and Ouest France did one article. On the Whole OPQS got by completely scot free (because everyone likes Boonen)

    One thing that has always confused me is peoples perception of Sean Yates as some sort of evil mastermind. When asked for evidence of Sky being dodgy one of the first arguments is "they employed Sean Yates".. Why?

    Sean doped as a rider, no doubt, (as did most other DS's)
    But he was never at US Postal, was never part of the seven "wins"
    He only joined Discovery in 2005
    He rode for Motorola

    The entire basis for Sean being an evil doping mastermind appears to be his friendship with "motoman"

    Peoples perception seems to be that Yates was part of it all, Motorola, Postal, Disco, there all along, part of the doping program, etc. When in reality he was only there for a very short time.
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #756 on: June 14, 2013, 23:35 »
    I think more interesting than Porte's performance is that he chose to resign, I really wonder why he would do that if Sky doesn't do something no other team does/can do. With Wiggins and Froome on the squad Porte won't get a chance to ride his own chance at many races. I can't see if Porte could preform the same on another team why he wouldn't at least wait till after July to sign and see what other teams might offer, that to me is why I will doubt Porte, it reminds me a bit too much about the US Postal reports where riders would sign cheaper contracts with Postal than elsewhere because they knew they couldn't preform elsewhere. And while Sky is able to pay big money, why not see if another team will pay the same and allow a better schedule?
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #757 on: June 14, 2013, 23:38 »
    after Paris Nice he said he would have a go at the Giro next year
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #758 on: June 14, 2013, 23:44 »
    after Paris Nice he said he would have a go at the Giro next year

    Still it seems weird to me that he would put himself in a situation where his schedule will be determined by where Froome and Wiggins go, he will only get what is left over, without even checking the market. If no good offers where out there for him he could just return, also he would likely net bigger money elsewhere as he has WT Points from Paris-Nice and he might be able to land with a team where he could decide what races to go for on his own.
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #759 on: June 14, 2013, 23:54 »
    yeah, sure, but which team would come to your mind? I can't really see him at Astana, Katusha or Radioshack and the only other teams I could think of being able to pay his salery would be BMC, OPQS and Greenedge, where he would either end up in more or less the same situation as now (BMC) or without any kind of support in the mountains
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  • DB-Coop

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #760 on: June 15, 2013, 00:08 »
    yeah, sure, but which team would come to your mind? I can't really see him at Astana, Katusha or Radioshack and the only other teams I could think of being able to pay his salery would be BMC, OPQS and Greenedge, where he would either end up in more or less the same situation as now (BMC) or without any kind of support in the mountains

    Out of those Greenedge seems like an amazing option, while he might need some help in the mountains there you would think that could be brought in, after all getting an Australian GT contender to Greenedge would be great for them. OPQS are already set on Uran, and I don't expect they want to pay for both, or have enough opportunities for them. But other teams that need to scrape together points for another Pro Tour license could be potential buyers.  Argos have a lot of money, but mountain dom's are badly needed though. I could see a team like Lampre as well though with the rumors that they want to ditch Scarpony I can see some sense in a move like bringing Porte in, to let him do the Tour and Cunego do the Giro, and maybe letting Niemiec ride for him self in the Vuelta.

    Greenedge or a points needy team would be my top choices.
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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #761 on: June 15, 2013, 01:38 »
    See I don't have an issue with him staying at sky.

    He didn't have a good time at saxo, and that may play on his mind a lot ... If you aren't happy with the team environment you don't ride we'll - so when he finds himself in a team that he likes, with training, staff, coaching etc that he fits in with ... And they are prepared to give him a shot at some of the things he wants ... Why wouldn't he stay?

    Also, to me it might be an indication that they have told him wiggins is out.  Sharing just between him and froome with a couple of great support riders is different from being behind froome and wiggins in the pecking order
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  • LukasCPH

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #762 on: June 15, 2013, 04:08 »
    Maybe Richie is doing a Klöden...
    Best mates with Froome (like Klöden with Ullrich), being happier to ride in the second rank.

    Not everyone wants to get to the absolute top - and that shouldn't be criticized just for that reason.
    As long as he's happy with what he does, it's fine by me.
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    FreeWheelin

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #763 on: June 15, 2013, 06:39 »
    Whatever questions I may or may not have about Richie, I dont think that him staying at Sky is too sus.  I think that a) he enjoys they way the team is run (with or without dark side), b) I think he sees the benefit of having a strong team around him - i dont know how good a GT rider he could become but he probably realizes that a bunch of Skybots in front of him is going to be his best chance.  While if he went to GreenEdge he could race whatever he wanted, he would have to do it alone which i dont think he want to do, not yet anyway.  So because of that c) he is prepared to play the long game, stay loyal to the team (he certainly seems to salute the flag in his interviews) and wait for his chance.  Wiggins can have many years left and who knows what handshake deals have been done with him for the future.

    While his potential and current WT points may be worth $y to other teams.  If he gets his chances and takes a GT podium or even win he will be worth $y times 3.
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #764 on: June 15, 2013, 17:27 »
    Maybe Richie is doing a Klöden...
    Best mates with Froome (like Klöden with Ullrich), being happier to ride in the second rank.

    Not everyone wants to get to the absolute top - and that shouldn't be criticized just for that reason.
    As long as he's happy with what he does, it's fine by me.

    True, but it seems strange to me that he wouldn't even test the market, unless he is scheduled to be the leader at the Vuelta I see no reason why he would resign without seeing other offers, if he is scheduled to do the Vuelta it makes some sense because Sky might pull him if they end up not having his points. couldn't Klöden be more of an example of a rider that might not have wanted to change because Telekom had a good "program" and he wouldn't be as good somewhere else? His team history is not that credible and the way he exited the case he was involved in was very suspicious, borderline incriminating.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #765 on: July 06, 2013, 16:27 »
    No surprises. Field too weak. 
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #766 on: July 06, 2013, 16:59 »
    I wasnt too surprised today. Froome looked right on the rivet, Contador, Evans were both pretty poor.. Hell, Belkin filled two of the top 5 spots.. :fp
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #767 on: July 06, 2013, 17:04 »
    When Nibali won his 16km tt by a minute you announced dim that doping was back in cycling. Now Froome who attacked 5k from the end takes a minute 10 on his nearest rival in that short space of time, with trackstand richie somewhere in between, and you are not surprised?
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #768 on: July 06, 2013, 17:07 »
    A minute over 16km is a lot more than a minute over a 10km climb. :D

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #769 on: July 06, 2013, 17:09 »
    Nibali's Giro MTT? A lot easier (erm, guess I should say twice as easy) to take a minute on a 40 minute climb than a 20 minute one.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #770 on: July 06, 2013, 17:11 »
    A minute over 16km is a lot more than a minute over a 10km climb. :D

    That...

    Is not true.
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #771 on: July 06, 2013, 17:11 »
    Contador, Evans were both pretty poor

    We keep waiting for those two to show some decent form, but it seems the Sky Grinder puts them near their limit throughout the day, and they have nothing for the dancing-on-pedals attacks in the hills. The only way of avoiding a complete whitewash is for some minor team (Belkin?  :D) to give it a real go out front, maybe with a couple of riders from other teams. Otherwise, all competitors will get ground down by the Skybots ready for Froome / Porte to leap off the front. Very impressed with Porte today. Intelligent riding.

    Shame The Clinic is down at the moment. I'll bet people are apoplectic over there.
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #772 on: July 06, 2013, 17:13 »
    When Nibali won his 16km tt by a minute you announced dim that doping was back in cycling. Now Froome who attacked 5k from the end takes a minute 10 on his nearest rival in that short space of time, with trackstand richie somewhere in between, and you are not surprised?

    Riding as part of a team all working for you, vs. working on your own in a MTT. Very different.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #773 on: July 06, 2013, 17:15 »
    A minute over 16km is a lot more than a minute over a 10km climb. :D

    How does that work?
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  • Flo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #774 on: July 06, 2013, 18:39 »
    Wow Froome  way more impressive than a doped up Contador in 2009. And that while being clean. Sheesh.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #775 on: July 06, 2013, 20:22 »
    Contador, Evans were both pretty poor..

    Well...donkeys to racehorses and back again.

    Contador must have been a super super responder
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #776 on: July 06, 2013, 21:38 »
     The best reason to be sceptical about Sky is that alternative to today's result was a guy who hasn't raced in two months pulling off a Pantani, or  Piti Valverde, taking the stage.
     
     Great alternative.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Flo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #777 on: July 06, 2013, 21:51 »
    Well...donkeys to racehorses and back again.

    Contador must have been a super super responder

    Or perhaps there is something going on which explains him getting progressively worse ever since vuelta 2012. Lack of motivation perhaps.
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  • Flo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #778 on: July 06, 2013, 21:55 »
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #779 on: July 06, 2013, 22:17 »
    A common meme last year for the Skyphobics was to say that Wiggins Sky team victory looked just like USPS, therefore Sky doped, because USPS doped. I didnt see that parallel at all. Wiggins never really delivered the killer blow in the way that Armstrong did. Just got the time in the TT and hung in there by and large. No real top class competition either and a parcours made for him.

    I think the parallel of appearances can be made today much more justifiably. However that parallel can be also made to the pre EPO champions. Hinault and Lemond, as team mates, got so far ahead of the peloton they sat up and chatted for the final part of a mountain stage. Coppi, Bahamontes...etc etc etc


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