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Joachim

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Re: Sky
« Reply #810 on: July 07, 2013, 23:16 »
Quintana couldn't unstick Froome, and if he was softening him up for a vlvde attack...well that never came.

Quintana will be on the podium, if that I am sure. The lad isn't a bad tt'er
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  • "You can't handle the truth"

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #811 on: July 08, 2013, 02:13 »
    I was disappointed that he likes of Valverde and Mollema and Contador didnt attack Froome on the last climb.

    I guess they were totally on their limit, but after having done all the work to completely isolate Wiggins, if they had took turns at going off the front on that climb (and held their nerve at not chasing each other ... leaving Froome to do it), they could have made the most of the chaos that Garmin had caused.

    Garmin - :win   :pray    I love them for what they did today.   That was awesome racing.
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  • froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #812 on: July 08, 2013, 08:30 »
    Millar in English this time:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/millar-sky-dont-deserve-to-have-mud-thrown-at-them-at-the-tour

    Quote
    Millar has become a strong voice in the anti-doping fight since serving his own two-year suspension in 2004 after he admitted to doping offences and says that while the current maillot jaune Chris Froome has talent that is "off the scale", the team could do more to satisfy the general public. Team Sky "don't deserve to have mud thrown at them," said Millar on Twitter believing the squad doesn’t help it’s cause by remaining tight-lipped on what seems to be the winning training formula.

    "They could be more open and not be so defensive at times, but you have to understand we are a professional sport and we are competing against each other," said Millar to AFP. "It's one thing satisfying the sceptics, but it's also about being professional and wanting to win races.

    "For them [Sky] it's very difficult, it's a tightrope they're walking, trying to be transparent, but also keeping their trade secrets, which are the (way they conduct their) training," he added.

    Connections were made between Lance Armstrong’s dominance during the US Postal days in the wake of Froome and Richie Porte’s stunning 1-2 display at the Tour’s first summit finish but this must be looked at from within the current environment. The sport has changed, says the 36-year-old and that is a big point of difference.

    "They race in a very similar way to the US Postal team, but you have to take into perspective the fact that the sport is different now.

    "There is more control and greater transparency than then, so even if we are saying that Sky aren't transparent it's night and day compared to Postal.

    "The general public don't know how the sport has changed and what Sky are actually doing. There is a massive difference between them and Postal," he added.

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    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #813 on: July 08, 2013, 08:31 »
    And Kimmage with Frankie about Sky..

    Please Click

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  • L'arri

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #814 on: July 08, 2013, 15:18 »
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #815 on: July 08, 2013, 15:35 »
    And Kimmage with Frankie about Sky..

    Please Click



    some interesting body language there, especially after he'd finished talking to Frankie. Kimmage looks like the little boy with no friends.

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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #816 on: July 08, 2013, 17:17 »
    Its amazing how people feel the need to exaggerate when it comes to Sky. There is an example in Slow Riders post where he says 'Sky win every race they enter.'

    Guess Sky didnt race any Classics this year then.  Or the Giro, or the...

    So why the need to exaggerate? Dont the facts mean much on their own ? ;)

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  • « Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 17:33 by Joachim »

    froome19

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #817 on: July 08, 2013, 18:20 »
    some interesting body language there, especially after he'd finished talking to Frankie. Kimmage looks like the little boy with no friends.
    Just a few months ago, Kimmage and Walsh couldn't put a step wrong.. now watching that video and thinking how things have changed.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #818 on: July 08, 2013, 18:55 »
    I posted this vid in the Kimmage thread, not realising it was here, but really....

    What an asshat Kimmage is. Andreu makes Kimmage look like the ejit he is, and all Kimmage can do is try and twist Andreu's words to imply something completely different to what Andrei meant.

    Kimmage belongs in the Clinic, in cn forum, not in a serious newspaper. No wonder the guy can't get a job.
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #819 on: July 08, 2013, 20:04 »
    Brailsford has just been interviewed on ITV4. The reason Sky hasn't joined the MPCC is because the Sky zero tolerance policy is stronger whereas the MPCC allows doped riders back after a period. He also said that there should not be a need for voluntary orgainsations ergo implying that UCI/WADA should adopt Sky's zero tolerance policy to riders and back office staff.

    Kimmage was also interviewed seperately and said TUEs should be in the public domain.

    Brailsford said he would support sending power data to independent experts to assess similar to Biological Passport panel.

    Hmmm... just saying not commentating.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #820 on: July 08, 2013, 20:23 »
    Just a few months ago, Kimmage and Walsh couldn't put a step wrong.. now watching that video and thinking how things have changed.

    Sorry, what step did Kimmage put wrong?
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #821 on: July 08, 2013, 20:24 »
    Millar in English this time:

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/millar-sky-dont-deserve-to-have-mud-thrown-at-them-at-the-tour

    Millar on Contador 2 years ago.  Also in English

    Quote
    Alberto Contador is untouchable as rider, he is a physical freak and we in the peloton have known that for a long time and respect his supreme talent. I would be very surprised if he didn't end up as the greatest Grand Tour rider in the history of the sport. It’s a tragedy that he has got mixed up in this Clenbuterol thing but I am keeping an open mind on his case,” Millar told the Telegraph.

    "Does anybody out there seriously doubt that Contador was riding clean in the Giro d'Italia that has just finished? You don't win the biggest races in the world with such clockwork regularity and comparative ease, and in such style, by not being the supreme talent and clean. In my experience the profile of a doper is always much more erratic and unpredictable.”

    "The rest of us mere mortals have "magic days" when every so often when we can take on the world. Contador's default setting is a "Magic day". His only departure from the norm is when he experiences merely an average day. They are the only two levels he rides at. My strong instinct is to trust that."


    Out the window goes any value one can attach to David Millar calling people clean.
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  • KeithJamesMc

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #822 on: July 08, 2013, 20:28 »
    Sorry, what step did Kimmage put wrong?
    I watched the video and I didn't think of anything strange.

    It just seemed like two mates having a chat and ribbing each other.

    They didn't agree 100% but that is perfectly normal.
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  • Havetts

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #823 on: July 08, 2013, 20:36 »
    I watched the video and I didn't think of anything strange.

    It just seemed like two mates having a chat and ribbing each other.

    They didn't agree 100% but that is perfectly normal.

    My thoughts exactly. Standard situation where friends dont agree with each other, cool down seperately and joke about the argument. Not sure how this concludes Kimmage is an incompetent journalist lol
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #824 on: July 08, 2013, 20:40 »
    Garmin

      :D

    But actually, your post is a non sequitur and nothing to do with mine, certainly not an answer. I'm talking about why people need to exagerrate....not asking for a guess that Sky are doping which would render their ztp hypocritical.

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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #825 on: July 08, 2013, 20:40 »

    It is amusing how peoples hate of sky has become so great that they now champion Valverde and Contador, two banned dopers as the saviours.


    Presumably you have some examples of people accusing sky and saying Valverde and Contador are "the saviours"?
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #826 on: July 08, 2013, 20:41 »
    Have a really close look at where the video is published....
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  • Havetts

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #827 on: July 08, 2013, 20:48 »
    Garmin

      :D

    But actually, your post is a non sequitur and nothing to do with mine, certainly not an answer. I'm talking about why people need to exagerrate....not asking for a guess that Sky are doping which would render their ztp hypocritical.



    My response wasnt aimed at anything directly, else I wouldve quoted the person I was responding to. Exaggerating (sp?) is part of human nature, make your arguments more "powerful" and dramatic. But I guess that question is rhetorical.

    But the only stage race Froome didnt win was Tirreno Adriatico. The classics were a fluke, they were dominated by Cancellara, Cancellara was talked about a lot, thats what you get for winning races so dominantly and crushingly. This is what happened this season with Froome and Nibali. One gets shot at and isnt really defended, Ferrari client et al. The other one is shot at and shouldnt be allowed in the line of fire, why have that double standard? Wiggins won every stage race he entered bar Volta a Algarve last year, Froome did the same this year but with Tirreno as an exception, how is that not utterly dominating the races? How is that not a point people can criticize, it isnt exaggerated when people say Sky wins every race they enter, because besides the classics they DO win almost ALL the races they enter.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #828 on: July 08, 2013, 20:54 »
    Ah yes, I get what you are saying.

    Sky win all races they enter.

    Except for the ones they don't.

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  • Havetts

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #829 on: July 08, 2013, 21:00 »
    Ah yes, I get what you are saying.

    Sky win all races they enter.

    Except for the ones they don't.



    No that is not my point. My point is if you do win so much races, you are a valid target for questions. Thats the reason I brought up Cancellara, thats the reason I brought up Nibali. Look at 2011, OPQS in the classics. They got targeted by questions because they were so dominant. Did you hear anyone complain about that? Even überbelgian Il Grillo realized its completely logical to question OPQS.

    Valverde is nicknamed El Imbatido, the Unbeatable, because he destroyed everyone in the youth races. He won everything, went (almost) undefeated to his pro career, yet he has been the target of questions. He is involved in Puerto, eventhough he sturdily denies he is not. His team is surpreme on one stage, they get questions. Simple.

    Then why shouldnt Sky be questioned? It wasnt even my point that its all about Sky. It was that if you dominate cycling in the path you specialize so heavily in, where other mega talented riders are, where known dopers are, where suspected dopers are, why is Sky not able to be questioned?
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #830 on: July 08, 2013, 21:09 »
    I think you might be answering a question I didn't ask and veering off on a tangent.

    I'm all in favour of everybody being questioned, what I don't have any time for are arguments built up on a whole bunch of exagerrated premises (and to be clear, I'm not accusing you of this). Let the facts speak...don't try and exagerrate them into something else.

    Regarding the claim that Sky win everything they enter, did you realise you then narrowed it down to Froome?

    See what I mean? Sky does not equal Froome. It is very clear that the proposition 'Sky win everything they enter' is not true, and it I unf#ir of you to then try to exclude examples that don't suit your argument.

    Ask yourself....of all the GTs that Sky have entered, how many did they win? All of them???

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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #831 on: July 08, 2013, 21:21 »
    Im generalising, and talking about the world outside this place, twitter, facebook, comments pages of news articles etc.

    I know a few disilusioned Contador fans who's reaction to Contador not winning is to go hard after Sky on the doping.

    I don't however recall any of them saying contador was the saviour of cycling. And i know most of them accepted some time ago that Contador was a doper.

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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #832 on: July 08, 2013, 22:11 »
    Its amazing how people feel the need to exaggerate when it comes to Sky. There is an example in Slow Riders post where he says 'Sky win every race they enter.'

    Guess Sky didnt race any Classics this year then.  Or the Giro, or the...

    So why the need to exaggerate? Dont the facts mean much on their own ? ;)

    Have a look at my post:
    But perhaps, just perhaps, could it have something to do with the fact that they win every single flipping stage race they enter? Had Valverde won Oman, Criterium International, Romandie, Dauphiné and was halfway through winning the Tour, don't you think there would be some threads on him?

    The fact is, Froome won every single stage race he entered this year but one: Tirreno, where he finished second to Nibali only on the strength of the latter's descending. That fact does indeed mean plenty on its own.

    More importantly though, you completely ignore the main argument of my post by focusing on this one exaggeration, distracting the discussion from the actual content towards non-arguments about whether people exaggerate more or less when it concerns Sky.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #833 on: July 08, 2013, 22:25 »
    My post was entirely about people exagerrating, nothing more, and I cited your post as an example of that. You've just tacitly admitted it was an exagerration. Job done.

    Now I could go off and find plenty more examples of the kind of thing I'm talking about. CN is a hotbed of it. What I'm getting at is the psychological process people go through of making an exagerrated proposition, which then gets used by others as a precept and soon becomes a truism, repeated as fact.

    Let's be clear. I'm not having a dig at you. Yours was a very mild-mannered example that just happened to be on hand.

    Now, we could have an entirely separate discussion of Froomes very recent success, and I would agree that he has been phenomenal. More so than Wiggins, as I think he is a true hard nut despite his unfortunate gawky appearance. He could be many things...phenomenal athlete or phenomenal doper are just two of them.



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  • Slow Rider

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #834 on: July 08, 2013, 22:28 »
    Im generalising, and talking about the world outside this place, twitter, facebook, comments pages of news articles etc.

    Are those people honestly saying that Contador and Valverde are the saviours of clean cycling for fighting a doped up Team Sky? Or do they think the Spanish are saviours of cycling because they attack a boring and too dominant Team Sky? Again, there are plenty of reasons not to like Sky, and darkside issues are only a small part of that.

    And if people do really believe Contador and Valverde are valiant knights of clean cycling who defeat an EPO-fueled evil Sky Empire on a diet of only water and bread, then you may need to reconsider whether those people are worth your time arguing with.
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  • Havetts

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #835 on: July 08, 2013, 22:43 »
    I think you might be answering a question I didn't ask and veering off on a tangent.

    I'm all in favour of everybody being questioned, what I don't have any time for are arguments built up on a whole bunch of exagerrated premises (and to be clear, I'm not accusing you of this). Let the facts speak...don't try and exagerrate them into something else.

    Regarding the claim that Sky win everything they enter, did you realise you then narrowed it down to Froome?

    See what I mean? Sky does not equal Froome. It is very clear that the proposition 'Sky win everything they enter' is not true, and it I unf#ir of you to then try to exclude examples that don't suit your argument.

    Ask yourself....of all the GTs that Sky have entered, how many did they win? All of them???

    Okay. So lets look at GTs from 2010 on.

    2010
    Giro: Liquigas - Basso.
    Tour: Radioshack - Andy Schleck.    ( dont start this discussion, im going with the official results ;) )
    Vuelta: Liquigas - Nibali.

    2011
    Giro: Lampre - Scarponi.
    Tour: BMC - Evans.
    Vuelta: Geox - JJ Cobo.

    2012:
    Giro: Garmin - Hesjedal.
    Tour: Sky - Wiggins.
    Vuelta: Saxo Bank - Contador.

    2013: Nibali - Astana.

    ---------
    So. There is one team, that won more than one Grand Tour over the last three years. It is not an argument to say "He's clean, he's dirty". But if you want to go there; Liquigas: Pellizotti and Nibali are spotted training together with Dr Ferrari following them on a bicycle. Questionable. Then Pelizotti has his blood passport case, suspended. Then we have our good old friend Birillo. That nickname alone should set off alarms.  So the only team and only rider, besides Contador with his suspension, who have/has won more than one GT has suspicions above their heads.

    Does that acquit Sky because they haven't won more than one GT? No it doesnt, its not a good argument, in fact its quite weak if you ask me. Its weak for both sides of the argument as winning GTs alone shouldnt be a reason to be guilty.


    My question to you: What do you reckon is Sky's main focus; their stage race team or their classics squad. Which part does sky focus on and do you feel theyre equally important to Sky? Or is one of them an afterthought?
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #836 on: July 09, 2013, 00:21 »
    Worth  a listen

    Ross from ScienceofSport
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  • « Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 00:43 by Dim »

    LukasCPH

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #837 on: July 09, 2013, 05:32 »
    Froome's non-published TDF power output
    Interesting thoughts by the very same (may be the same stuff as what he says in the podcast, I haven't listened to it yet).
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    myth1908

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #838 on: July 09, 2013, 07:41 »
    And Kimmage with Frankie about Sky..

    Please Click

    all i could hear was bla bla bla bla bla bla, froome doped, bla bla bla, don't take his word for it, bla bla bla bla this performance is inhuman. nothing's gonna change my mind about it.
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  • Mellow Velo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #839 on: July 09, 2013, 09:22 »
    all i could hear was bla bla bla bla bla bla, froome doped, bla bla bla, don't take his word for it, bla bla bla bla this performance is inhuman. nothing's gonna change my mind about it.

     In fairness, Kimmage doesn't say a whole lot, other than he was flat, cos the Tour was over-which we now know isn't the case.
    Mostly it's Andreu pointing out the obvious: that you can't simply compare times
    because of the racing variables.
     An example posted elsewhere, is the two semi finals of the Olympic 1500 metres. Same track, same conditions, one race 10 seconds faster than the other.

     Has Paul made a diary entry after Sunday's stage? Presumably, he's perked up again.
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