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Joachim

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Re: Sky
« Reply #840 on: July 09, 2013, 09:42 »
The 'flat' bit is the part I take issue with. After setting the context of doped performances, by discussing doped performances, Kimmage brings up Andreu's earlier pre-interview statement that he felt 'flat'. Andreu is clearly aware of the contextual spin Kimmage is attempting, and he tries to squash it by saying that he is flat because he thinks the Tour is possibly won already. Kimmage tries to stop Andreu from uttering this rationale, because Kimmage wants this out-of-context opinion to be seen in the context of the rest of the discussion...doping.

Now, that is all fine and well, unless you purport to be a serious journalist. Remember, also, that this video is hosted on Kimmage's newspaper blog page. If Kimmage had anything useful to say, he wouldn't need to resort to stunts like this.

Kimmage is in the luxurious position of only ever being able to be proved right. He can never be proved wrong, which is why if he wants to be considered a serious journalist of integrity he should do what Walsh is doing...keep quiet until there is something to say.

If he can't then he should stick to Internet forums.
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  • "You can't handle the truth"

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    Mellow Velo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #841 on: July 09, 2013, 12:53 »
     I think you'd have to be a pretty ardent Sky fan to not have felt a bit flat,
    after Saturday. It certainly looked then that the contest was going to be
    an even more one sided affair than last year.
     I certainly felt "lifted" by much of Sunday's turn of events.

    I'm a bit meh about trying to read too much into this report.
    Let's face it, if Kimmage and Andreu are going to play good cop, bad cop
    with Sky, there's only one casting.
    As the bad cop, Kimmage wasn't so bad.
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  • "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.

    Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #842 on: July 09, 2013, 13:12 »
    I'm very pleased with the turn of events. It is going to be an almighty war, with the likely winner being either Froome or somebody sitting quietly in the wings.

    As for the 'flat' stuff, context is key. I don't care what Kimmage says, but he is allegedly a journalist, and this casts him in a bad light.
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #843 on: July 09, 2013, 13:18 »
    In fairness, Kimmage doesn't say a whole lot, other than he was flat, cos the Tour was over-which we now know isn't the case.
    Mostly it's Andreu pointing out the obvious: that you can't simply compare times
    because of the racing variables.
     An example posted elsewhere, is the two semi finals of the Olympic 1500 metres. Same track, same conditions, one race 10 seconds faster than the other.

    There are 2 things to say to that. 1st of all in your semi final analogy it was the entire semi final (all competitors) who were affected by the speed.

    In this Froome case however he was the ONLY one who went fast. The conditions do not suggest it was a particularly favorable day for a fast ascent because everyone else finished way down. Only Froome was able to challenge Armstrongs time.

    Second of all the problem is 1 of the big arguments fed down our throats since 2011 has been how the times have been slower. This wasnt even true last year since Peyresoudes was climbed just as fast by wiggins froome nibali as by Contador and Rasmussen but its been repeated ad nauseum on all platforms.

    So when Froome rides a mountain that fast it is very significant because it smashes that defence out of the water. and anyone who said that times were slower is being a massive hypocrite if they dont now say it is suspicious.
                                                                                                 
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  • Despite the self-serving data benders and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers, even within 'new age' cycling teams. Personally, I don't accept that the 'dark era' has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise.

    Flo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #844 on: July 09, 2013, 14:01 »
    @larry twit pic I can't quote

    15.40 the moment I lost the last bit of respect for Froome I had left
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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #845 on: July 09, 2013, 14:08 »
    @larry twit pic I can't quote

    15.40 the moment I lost the last bit of respect for Froome I had left

    Florry, assuming you're talking about embedding a tweet, give me the link to the status.

    For example:

    https://twitter.com/vamosalberto/status/354576267007377410
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  • Cycling is a Europe thing only and I only watch from Omloop on cause I am cool and sh*t
    RIP Craig1985 / Craig Walsh
    RIP KeithJamesMc / Keith McMahon / Larry Sarni

    Flo

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #846 on: July 09, 2013, 14:12 »
    Florry, assuming you're talking about embedding a tweet, give me the link to the status.

    For example:

    https://twitter.com/vamosalberto/status/354576267007377410

    No larry my post was a quote of your post but it was a lot of code so I removed the quote.
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #847 on: July 09, 2013, 14:30 »
    No larry my post was a quote of your post but it was a lot of code so I removed the quote.

    its because larri used html and members cant use html. At some point i will build a twitter bbcode
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #848 on: July 09, 2013, 21:01 »
    Also I think the other teams get an easier 'ride' because they're not declaring to the world that they invented the wheel on a daily basis.

    Neither are Sky
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #849 on: July 09, 2013, 21:09 »
    Well you tell me.

    What have they said today? You did say daily basis.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #850 on: July 09, 2013, 21:25 »
    Ok we should take this to a Sky thread and not the Movistar one.

    Today in an interview(not sure if it was from today or yesterday though) Froome said "we eat better now" so Sky eat all the right and correct food and riders on other teams are loading up on fries and burgers etc?

    It was yesterday. He said this:

    "Everyone knows that cycling has changed. That's clear. The training and the diet have evolved"

    I really don't know how you arrived at the conclusion you did, and I think that if you are honest you will admit that.

    By all means, be sceptical. I am too. But the constant exagerration and misquoting/misinterpretation that we get when it comes to Sky doesn't help anyone, and I mean that in the kindest, non-inflammatory way.




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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #851 on: July 09, 2013, 22:57 »
    You've gone for the carpet bombing technique in that post. Lob in everything in the hope that one of them hits  :D

    I'm trying to focus on specifics here, otherwise it is hard to maintain a coherent discussion.

    Nevertheless, you make some very valid points, some of which I agree with, and the ones I don't I'm happy to discuss. I'm going to have to bow out for now, though, as my bed is calling me. I think we'll have to reconvene on another thread, though, as this one is about Movistar.

    Goodnight!
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  • just some guy

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #852 on: July 10, 2013, 07:16 »
    Byop you know where I stand on all of this ......

    In the sport of cycling who are the clean legends ? LeMond , maybe and ummmm ..... ?



    Riders who did not dope but finished 167th in the tour maybe legends in the eyes of Twitter but cycling legends nope. Now perhaps they should have stfu , but Armstrong is a cycling legend , asswhole etc but a legend as it Marco , Jan etc as far a your eye looks at records they're all *, except LeMond and I am on the fence.

    Also as a rider Armstrong is very important as your pay checklist way better.

    So perhaps best to say nothing but then you get called out for that,

    Anyway a bit off topic but the sky riders in many respects would still thank Armstrong, pay checks , amount of fans etc

    Just wanted to play devils lawyer
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  • Of course, if this turns out someday to be the industry standard integrated handlebar-computer-braking solution then I'll eat my kevlar-reinforced aerodynamic hat.

    Larri Nov 12, 2014

    Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #853 on: July 10, 2013, 09:31 »
    I think that is a very pragmatic view and one I tend to agree with.

    The problem with the Internet discussions and Armstrong is that he has become the new Godwin meme. Mentioning Armstrong elicits a frankly hysterical response from people, who then try to beat you round the head with it if you don't condemn him as some kind if incarnate Satan.

    At least on the Internet. Out in the real world, as you say, the people involved in the sport know full well the difference pre and post Armstrong in terms of pay, and potential pay. Regardless of how Armstrong got there, they all know that during his reign he brought in massive exposure and with that, money. That is why there is a reluctance by many pros to parrot out what Armstrongs Internet forum critics want them to say. Coupled with that is the hypocrisy of pretending that he was the only guy doing this. He wasn't. They all were. He just happened to win, and win to the extent that the lies had to match the enormity of his success.

    Now that always gets the hysterics jumping up and down and slinging what they consider to be the ultimate insult of 'Armstrong fanboy'.  These people should be ignored,  not only because they are idiots, but primarily because their demonization of this individual is preventing the truth coming out. Doping didnt start with Armstrong, and it didnt end with him.

    The irony of this is that, personally, I stopped watching the TdF during 2000-2005 as I couldn't bear Armstrong and his Texan bullsh*t. I'm well aware of what an odious person he is, and his efforts to smash people into silence. I'm glad he's gone. He should never be allowed near the sport, but then I'd extend that to all convicted dopers. Valverde, Millar, Contador included.

    Which brings us to this ridiculous attempt to judge current riders by their attitude to Armstrong, as if denouncing him on stage is proof of anything except hypocrisy.

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  • kabloemski

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #854 on: July 10, 2013, 11:33 »
    Also as a rider Armstrong is very important as your pay checklist way better.

    So perhaps best to say nothing but then you get called out for that,

    Anyway a bit off topic but the sky riders in many respects would still thank Armstrong, pay checks , amount of fans etc

    Spot on JSG!

    http://touch.dailymotion.com/video/x22rmr_abba-money-money-money_music
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  • Hey, Bart! Your epidermis is showing!

    benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #855 on: July 10, 2013, 18:10 »
    Byop you know where I stand on all of this ......

    In the sport of cycling who are the clean legends ? LeMond , maybe and ummmm ..... ?



    Riders who did not dope but finished 167th in the tour maybe legends in the eyes of Twitter but cycling legends nope. Now perhaps they should have stfu , but Armstrong is a cycling legend , asswhole etc but a legend as it Marco , Jan etc as far a your eye looks at records they're all *, except LeMond and I am on the fence.

    Also as a rider Armstrong is very important as your pay checklist way better.

    So perhaps best to say nothing but then you get called out for that,

    Anyway a bit off topic but the sky riders in many respects would still thank Armstrong, pay checks , amount of fans etc

    Just wanted to play devils lawyer

    You dont make a great devil's lawyer ;)

    Cycling has become popular despite Armstrong not because.

    To praise a dope and a cheat can only mean 1 thing, that you dont have a problem with the method of doping and cheating as one is using the same method.

    Sky riders lambasted Landis for coming clean, not because he was damaging the sport, how much more damaged can a sport be, the general public already thought they all doped anyway so why lambast Landis, because he was breaking the golden rule of cycling 'never spit in the soup'.

    Bike sales are on the increase yet sponsorship is down in the sport. They can thank the doping for that.

    Sky are doing what all the big teams have done down find an edge and push it to the maximum. I would hazard a guess that they have UCI/ASO in their back pockets with a standard doping program. That they have exclusive rights with UCI/ASO seems to be the order of the day lightly sprinkled with whatever chemical they have chosen.

    Will we find out how they won 2 TdFs and possibily more, I guess we will, we have always done, some times it takes longer than others, but someone always spills the beans.
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  • "ahaha, ever had the feeling you been cheated?" JL SF Jan'78

    Havetts

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #856 on: July 10, 2013, 18:57 »
    Bahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaahahhaa. You can't expect anyone to take this serious, right?

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/news/the-story-of-brailsfords-froome-discovery-dates-back-to-2006_294574

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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #857 on: July 10, 2013, 19:23 »
    Have a read of cycling news report of the 2006 Commonwealth Games...

    http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/mar06/commgames06/?id=results/men_rr

    Quote
    time-trial revelation Chris Froome


    Here is the relevant section of the TT report:

    Quote
    The first of 72 riders off recorded an impressive time which made a mockery of his ranking for the event. Kenyan Christopher Froome stopped the clock in 53.58.01, a time which kept him on top of the standings for almost an hour as the next forty-nine starters failed to better his effort! Kiwi Logan Hutchings was next to impress, lowering the time to beat by two minutes, but his hopes of a gold medal were short lived when the next rider home, Paul Manning (England) came in faster.

    So if cycling news noticed Froome, why not Brailsford?
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #858 on: July 10, 2013, 20:26 »
    Why is Paul Manning not winning GTs  :fail
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  • Dim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #859 on: July 10, 2013, 20:31 »
    Why is Paul Manning not winning GTs  :fail

    Because like Wiggins, he was a track rider, mainly in the Pursuit. Im guessing in '06 for the commonwealth's he had access to one of Boardmans supermachines. Froome meanwhile was riding a steel frame with shifters on the downtube.. ;)
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  • benotti69

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #860 on: July 10, 2013, 20:44 »
    Because like Wiggins, he was a track rider, mainly in the Pursuit. Im guessing in '06 for the commonwealth's he had access to one of Boardmans supermachines. Froome meanwhile was riding a steel frame with shifters on the downtube.. ;)

    I knew it Sky/BC are doping the bikes, its not the riders at all.........
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #861 on: July 10, 2013, 21:56 »
    Have a read of cycling news report of the 2006 Commonwealth Games...

    http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/mar06/commgames06/?id=results/men_rr


    Here is the relevant section of the TT report:

    So if cycling news noticed Froome, why not Brailsford?

    They noticed he existed. His parents probably noticed he existed 20 years before that. Doesn't mean they thought he would one day become a contender for best gt rider of all time.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #862 on: July 10, 2013, 22:00 »
    Contender for best gt rider of all time?

    Remind me, how many has he won so far?

    (Clue: its a round number)
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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #863 on: July 10, 2013, 22:13 »
    The title greatest gt rider of all time is ambiguous. It could mean who won the most gts, but it could also mean, who's one off gt form was the greatest.  Eg  Rasmussen 2007 vs Merckx 1969. Froome's never won a gt but he is 10 times the rider of Nibali who has won 2 and Menchov who (still) has 3.

    Also it is not that out of this world to suggest that the guy who has been the best gt rider of the last 3 years, has the biggest lead for this stage of the TDF in well over a decade ( and that was a breakaway) and who with the exception of 1 tiny blipp has won every race he has targeted in 6 months, is  well on his way to becoming a contender for that title.

    Anyway Since i have no interests in back and forth over semantics, ill just rephrase:

    Quote
    They noticed he existed. His parents probably noticed he existed 20 years before that. Doesn't mean they thought he would one day be outclimb and out tt for minutes every other contender at the Tour de France.

    The point stands. To highlight a mandatory mention in a 7 year old report into a u23 race as a sign that CN noticed his talent is a massive stretch.

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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #864 on: July 10, 2013, 22:23 »
    They clearly noticed his talent, otherwise they wouldn't have referred to him as 'time-trial revelation' and devoted a whole paragraph to him.

    It is you attempting to extrapolate this to 'contender for greatest gt rider of all time', not CN, nor David Brailsford.

    Finally, I don't think you will convince anybody that a man who has never won a GT is a contender for 'greatest GT rider of all time'. It isn't that ambiguous. I think he probably needs to win at least eleven first.

    You have heard of Eddy Merckx, haven't you?

    Hardly semantics. 11 vs 0.

    Besides, you've revised your post, and yes...you are quite right, it doesn't mean that they thought he would get ahead in a GT, but who said that they did?

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  • The Hitch

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #865 on: July 10, 2013, 22:34 »
    Maybe he got a paragraph devoted to him somewhere else but in the quote you gave he got 1 sentence and he was mentioned just the once.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #866 on: July 10, 2013, 22:42 »
    He got half a paragraph, but the length doesn't matter, the content does. The other quote about him being a revelation comes from the road race report. I think the word 'revelation' says it all. He clearly got himself noticed

    My original post was in reply to Havetts who seemed to be ridiculing the notion that Froome was noticed at the CW 2006 games. I've posted the Cycling news reports as unequivocal proof that he was noticed.

    End of really, isn't t.

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  • AG

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #867 on: July 11, 2013, 01:34 »
    settle down guys.

    trying to on-up each other isnt going to happen anymore.

    Talk about the topic (ie when Chris Froome developed his talent) ... not what each of you said when.

    thanks
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  • lancasterke

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #868 on: July 11, 2013, 10:02 »
    at the vuelta '11 i was delighted initially that there was a british cyclist who could climb and attack.

    i did remember him from his barloworld days but wondered what he'd been doing in the interim.

    i don't ever remember him being discussed as a future champion (in the manner that wilco kelderman, bauke mollema, diego ullissi, eddy boss, thomas dekker, G thomas,  Quintana, Sicard, tjvg etc etc have been on CN forums).

    from my (non scientific) experience of all sports i follow many youngsters are touted as the future champion best ever, most don't make it. the champions that do make it almost always have spent there life dominating at pretty much every level. (as an aside i'd compare wilkinson and cipriani in rugby, both were the future of international rugby from the age of about 16, one has had a great career, one has been a talented but underperforming journeyman pro; or in football wayne rooney and jermaine defoe again both touted from a young age broke all sorts of records, played premiership young etc, but one became an england star, the other is a good level pro).
    very rarely do the stars and champions of maturity, come from the group of guys not touted as the future of all things good. I'm not saying that it never happens (kurt warner in the nfl, tom brady in the nfl, possibly you could say didier drogba) , but it's rare that sportspeople are good but not great at 24 and brilliant at 26 without a reason.

    in froome's favour african cycling is less well covered than european cycling (but i've heard lots of chat about dan teklahaimot (sp?), daryl impey, adrien niyonshuti, reinart janse van rensburg, john-lee augustyn so it's not zero coverage).
    the other thing that might explain it would be illness/allergies etc which again are possible.
    finally late bloomer a la kurt warner.

    the career trajectory of chris froome is strikingly different, both in results and level of hype from his current competitors (valverde, contador, quintana, mollema, (at the tour) and nibali)

    the current cyclist who's late blooming career best matches froome is rodriguez (i think) but even he aged 23 won a stage of paris nice and a stage of the vuelta and 26th overall, and now is deeply flawed as a GC contender.

    this is just my thoughts but i find froome's career trajectory weird. not impossible. just weird.

    the fact that he is currently doing what contador did at his doped peak to contador and valverde makes me think that he is dirty. i'm not sure in my own mind he's dirty but to put it the other way, i've very little confidence that froome is clean.
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  • Joachim

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    Re: Sky
    « Reply #869 on: July 11, 2013, 10:13 »
    I'd agree. I think his trajectory is not typical. I also think his performances are exceptional.

    He might be doping, or he might not. I'm open minded. But what we don't need are the hysterical overreactions and exaggerations of his feats. It really doesn't add any value.

    Any claim (from both sides) needs to be examined calmly and clinically (no pun intended).
    For sure, the vitriol that seems to occur on some forums is both childish and unneccesary.
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